Thoughts On Releasing The Aklato Prime And Dual Skana Prime [Please Be Civil And Constructive]

[SockBadger]

The argument seems to be summed up as Founders not willing to give up something you covet. While people pushing the other side of the argument are saying that the thing you covet is worthless anyway. But then if it is so worthless, why are you coveting it so enthusiasticaly? 75 pages of back and forth.

 

Even if for arguments sake a vote was put into the design council forums to vote on how to proceed and by a majority you got your wish, what about the minority? Which might not be a minor number of players I might add. Can I see why you covet these founders items? Certainly I can, there are plenty of things in the game I have missed that I know I will likely never posess, for example Primed Chamber but I do not begrudge the exclusivity of this extremely rare mod (except possibly while staring at Charged Chamber and saying things to myself like; "Why can't you be more like your brother eh?").

 

If I am honest then yes these mods like the cicero event mods not being obtainable by another means except for that Cicero event and if you didn't get them and can't obtain enough platinum to barter for the limited number in circulation... tough, is a bad thing. It's bad precisely because those rare mods give such an advantage to the player who has them in their posession. But the founders weapons have long since been overtaken, even with the advent of damage 2.0 and melee 2.0 by better weapons. So I put it to you that while their exclusivity is mostly aesthetic, it precisely that which makes them valuable.

[PeripheralVisionary]

What's the point of dual Prime AkLatos anyway?

 

The singular gun is terrible. These would have to be an insanely large difference in stats to make them viable at all.

[dragonkingdx]

I know how the founders feel

 

ive been there in other games and always support less exclusivity

 

The problem here is many players are unwilling to bewnd in the slightest and would rather say no and derail the topic into fights and arguments then call for a lock than actually compromise

 

Fropm my PoV the founding fathers are too stubborn and unwilling to bend to other peoples sides

 

They can keep the lato and skana prime and excali prime simply because DE said exclusive

 

But this is something entirely different and would shut 70% of the arguments out

 

 

 

Dex versions would be great but founders would claim thats a slap in the face despite it again having nothing to do with the pack they bought

 

Well by what you said about being stubborn is the biggest issue. :S  If one wants respect they have to give respect, if they cannot give respect and then ask for respect then they don't deserve respect. Which is why I say if founders want respect for their feelings on the exclusivity of having something similar. Then they should be at least able to have some respect for ones who want something similar. Just for the sake of having something similar because they missed out. (as lets be honest just going no hasn't worked, as in this issue that no doesnt belong and its just like screaming "mine" which goes the same for screaming "gimme")

 

Non founders were willing to work on a compromise for the sake of the founders feelings. But TBH if people cant try to accept something in effort to take their feelings into consideration. I would honestly say (now again this is in honesty and blunt) then wait and see. As DE owes founders nothing for dual variants as thats the cold harsh truth. Just the same as DE doesn't have to release the weapons if they don't want to. They can whine moan and complain all they want, facts are facts they aren't owed crap they got what they paid for and those items they paid for will never be re released. As well as it can be tough crap they will never be variants.

 

If founders cant even put that stubbornness aside to put some compromise that gets them something when they are owed nothing then they really have no hope of a future of mutual respect. That is in the case that they do release the weapons. In the same manner if they don't you have the same thing of not caring about non founders feelings if it ends with the same feeling founders have now for having the idea suggested in the first place. So inevitably making them feel as upset as they are now instead of trying to make it better for them so they stop the complaining.

 

o.o so now we are at a which came first the chicken or the egg situation since it looks impossible for compromises just for the sakes of both sides being stubborn.

Edited June 11, 2014 by dragonkingdx

[Yezzik]

Don't know about this to be honest... It's more like a side-step by avoiding the original problem, with the topic still being brought up again and again even after something like Dex versions would come to existence.

 

It'd fix the gameplay-related issues with those items, as the Mastery would be equalised better and the Dex and Prime versions would be mechanically similar if not identical. At that point, the only arguments would be cosmetic--and therefore, unnecessary.

[Dalu__Ka]

This is the attitude of the founders who are absolutely unreasonable

 

Stubborn unwillingness like this has no place in debate whatsoever

rofl :D

 

Ah be somewhat generous... Let the non-founders who are in the Design Council have fun with us!

Hmmmm, ok. But they have to stay on the balcony :P

[Azawarau]

The argument seems to be summed up as Founders not willing to give up something you covet. While people pushing the other side of the argument are saying that the thing you covet is worthless anyway. But then if it is so worthless, why are you coveting it so enthusiasticaly? 75 pages of back and forth.

 

Even if for arguments sake a vote was put into the design council forums to vote on how to proceed and by a majority you got your wish, what about the minority? Which might not be a minor number of players I might add. Can I see why you covet these founders items? Certainly I can, there are plenty of things in the game I have missed that I know I will likely never posess, for example Primed Chamber but I do not begrudge the exclusivity of this extremely rare mod (except possibly while staring at Charged Chamber and saying things to myself like; "Why can't you be more like your brother eh?").

 

If I am honest then yes these mods like the cicero event mods not being obtainable by another means except for that Cicero event and if you didn't get them and can't obtain enough platinum to barter for the limited number in circulation... tough, is a bad thing. It's bad precisely because those rare mods give such an advantage to the player who has them in their posession. But the founders weapons have long since been overtaken, even with the advent of damage 2.0 and melee 2.0 by better weapons. So I put it to you that while their exclusivity is mostly aesthetic, it precisely that which makes them valuable.

There are alot of things that go into this for alot of different people

 

For some its a status symbol, for others mastery

 

For people like me who dont care much about those things its a new toy to play with for a weapon i like

 

Regardless of peoples personal feelings on the matter we have to realize that this isnt just a workaround on founders exclusives

 

In a way people can say its a dual version of a primed weapon and they can say its a prime version of a non prime weapon

 

When you look it at its kind of both in a way

 

Wouldnt that make it the perfect compromise

 

A meeting in the middle between two ways of seeing something?

 

The founders dont lose anything but can gain a new weapon to play with along with the non founders. It dosnt have to be free

 

We can hunt it or make it into a plat pack or possibly even an event item

 

Just stop for a minute and realize theres actually a brilliant solution here posted by the OP

 

And even if you disagree

 

Dont JUST Disagree

 

Suggest something that might work

 

Another meeting in the middle rather than a flat no

 

If you dont,wont, or cant do that then youre the problem

 

Well by what you said about being stubborn is the biggest issue. :S  If one wants respect they have to give respect, if they cannot give respect and then ask for respect then they don't deserve respect. Which is why I say if founders want respect for their feelings on the exclusivity of having something similar. Then they should be at least able to have some respect for ones who want something similar. Just for the sake of having something similar because they missed out. (as lets be honest just going no hasn't worked, as in this issue that no doesnt belong and its just like screaming "mine" which goes the same for screaming "gimme")

 

Non founders were willing to work on a compromise for the sake of the founders feelings. But TBH if people cant try to accept something in effort to take their feelings into consideration. I would honestly say (now again this is in honesty and blunt) then wait and see. As DE owes founders nothing for dual variants as thats the cold harsh truth. Just the same as DE doesn't have to release the weapons if they don't want to. They can whine moan and complain all they want, facts are facts they aren't owed crap they got what they paid for and those items they paid for will never be re released. As well as it can be tough crap they will never be variants.

 

If founders cant even put that stubbornness aside to put some compromise that gets them something when they are owed nothing then they really have no hope of a future of mutual respect. That is in the case that they do release the weapons. In the same manner if they don't you have the same thing of not caring about non founders feelings if it ends with the same feeling founders have now for having the idea suggested in the first place. So inevitably making them feel as upset as they are now instead of trying to make it better for them so they stop the complaining.

 

o.o so now we are at a which came first the chicken or the egg situation since it looks impossible for compromises just for the sakes of both sides being stubborn.

Very well summed up stranger

 

+1

Edited June 11, 2014 by Azawarau

[Khranitel]

This is the attitude of the founders who are absolutely unreasonable

 

Stubborn unwillingness like this has no place in debate whatsoever

Except I'm not founder, if you would be so kind and open your eyes to see that.

And who are you to decide, what has or has no place in conversation?

Edited June 11, 2014 by Khranitel

[MeduSalem]

This is the attitude of the founders who are absolutely unreasonable

 

Stubborn unwillingness like this has no place in debate whatsoever

 

As if the debate would have led somewhere after the first 20-30 pages where most of the idea were already proposed. I've been following the thread ever since it's beginning and everything debated is still purely academic. There have been countless ideas, but every single one leads to another minority being p*ssed off somehow or would open up another can of worms once implemented and therefore lead to more problems or people wanting more.

 

So honestly even there are still people (mostly the same anyways) willing to dicsuss on a civil manner, most people are already tired of the same circles being drawn over and over. Can't really blame them. There's no advancement anymore, old ideas are being brought up again and again, all to the same result. DE should either lock the thread by saying "Nope" or lock the thread to gather the ideas (which are mostly buried in this mess anyways), take them to the next step and make a poll in Design Council to decide about possible ways on how to handle this nightmare anytime soon.

 

It'd fix the gameplay-related issues with those items, as the Mastery would be equalised better and the Dex and Prime versions would be mechanically similar if not identical. At that point, the only arguments would be cosmetic--and therefore, unnecessary.

 

Mastery is already equalised for the most part... It's not like some people who aquired founders or event weapons have that much of an advantage. Also the more weapons/warframes DE releases and the more mastery points are needed to reach the next mastery rank the more negligible the difference becomes. Mastery rank isn't the cause about the debate anymore. It's plain and simple greed. It's simply the fact that newcomers haven't had the chance to get them and now some of them are jealous. And within the Veterans there are either the hardcore defenders of Founders gear or people that have become "Meh" about the whole situation anyways, or people that always were against having exclusive stuff in the first place.

Edited June 11, 2014 by MeduSalem

[SockBadger]

For me personally as someone who purchased the higher tier founders pack and higher tier prime packs since, what I would want are new exclusives. A trade if you will, voted on by the design council. At the very least I would expect dual versions of the new weapons free as a paliative fob, making up for my feelings of loss, I would likely insist that the new ones were platinum only also.

 

But as has just been mentioned above this is purely academic, as there will always be some who would be unhappy with this arrangement. Even if it was put up for debate in the design council, it would be by default a biased voting base. If you gave it to non design council members, possibly even more so.

[Azawarau]

Except I'm not founder, if you would be so kind and open your eyes to see that.

And who are you to decide, what has or has no place in conversation?

Did i say you specifically?

 

My apologies

 

 

As if the debate would have led somewhere after the first 20-30 pages where most of the idea were already proposed. I've been following the thread ever since it's beginning and everything debated is still purely academic. There have been countless ideas, but every single one leads to another minority being p*ssed off somehow or would open up another can of worms once implemented and therefore lead to more problems or people wanting more.

 

So honestly even there are still people (mostly the same anyways) willing to dicsuss on a civil manner, most people are already tired of the same circles being drawn over and over. Can't really blame them. There's no advancement anymore, old ideas are being brought up again and again, all to the same result. DE should either lock the thread by saying "Nope" or lock the thread to gather the ideas (which are mostly buried in this mess anyways), take them to the next step and make a poll in Design Council to decide about possible ways on how to handle this nightmare anytime soon.

 

 

Mastery is already equalised for the most part... It's not like some people who aquired founders or event weapons have that much of an advantage. Also the more weapons/warframes DE releases and the more mastery points are needed to reach the next mastery rank the more negligible the difference becomes. Mastery rank isn't the cause about the debate anymore. It's plain and simple greed. It's simply the fact that newcomers haven't had the chance to get them and now some of them are jealous. And within the Veterans there are either the hardcore defenders of Founders gear or people that have become "Meh" about the whole situation anyways, or people that always were against having exclusive stuff in the first place.

You callin me out on my argument

 

You wanna fight?

 

Huh???

 

Ill derail this thread so hard itll make yer head spin

 

More sarcasm

 

Really the hostility here....

 

Calls for a mid rank flame repellant at least

 

For me personally as someone who purchased the higher tier founders pack and higher tier prime packs since, what I would want are new exclusives. A trade if you will, voted on by the design council. At the very least I would expect dual versions of the new weapons free as a paliative fob, making up for my feelings of loss, I would likely insist that the new ones were platinum only also.

 

But as has just been mentioned above this is purely academic, as there will always be some who would be unhappy with this arrangement. Even if it was put up for debate in the design council, it would be by default a biased voting base. If you gave it to non design council members, possibly even more so.

I was going to bring up that the design council would be an extremely biased vote as well

 

Giving foundrs the item for free would also be a very acceptable solution

[FierceRadiance]

Wouldnt that make it the perfect compromise

 

A meeting in the middle between two ways of seeing something?

 

Respectfully -and I mean that- there are some issues for which any compromise is a bad idea.  One obvious example is global warming.  Any compromise which continues to allow the planet to overheat but at a slower rate is a bad idea, even thought 'it's a compromise'.  Yes, it's better than overheating at a faster rate....but that's all it's better than.  And is that really a goal we all support?  Disaster, but at a later date?

 

Finding a workaround so that people who weren't in-game when a given exclusive was available can have something they didn't qualify for is simply a bad idea on it's face.  If I (or anyone else) know that we don't have to participate in DE's events in order to get some 'goodie' later on down the road, I don't think that's going to end up as a good idea from DE's standpoint, or one they will support.  If they want participation, then players have to believe that whatever the chatchke is DE's handing out won't be available after this weekend or what have you.  This compromise flies in the face of that concept, and for that reason (among others) I think it's a bad idea.

[dragonkingdx]

 take them to the next step and make a poll in Design Council to decide about possible ways on how to handle this nightmare anytime soon.

 Bad idea. A poll in a area where people are more inclined (as this thread has shown) to go "no get over it" rather than work for a compromise. Putting it in anyone elses  hands besides DE and the DE team would have biased and inconclusive votes. No one group should have control over weather something happens or not when it comes to. :S sadly this thread is as best as it could get (and thats no where close as not everyone is on the forum but it at least asks everyone so its not exclusive to 1 group) or even as far as asking via live stream. And even then you wouldn't catch all the people.

 

 

Respectfully -and I mean that- there are some issues for which any compromise is a bad idea.  One obvious example is global warming.  Any compromise which continues to allow the planet to overheat but at a slower rate is a bad idea, even thought 'it's a compromise'.  Yes, it's better than overheating at a faster rate....but that's all it's better than.  And is that really a goal we all support?  Disaster, but at a later date?

 

Finding a workaround so that people who weren't in-game when a given exclusive was available can have something they didn't qualify for is simply a bad idea on it's face.  If I (or anyone else) know that we don't have to participate in DE's events in order to get some 'goodie' later on down the road, I don't think that's going to end up as a good idea from DE's standpoint, or one they will support.  If they want participation, then players have to believe that whatever the chatchke is DE's handing out won't be available after this weekend or what have you.  This compromise flies in the face of that concept, and for that reason (among others) I think it's a bad idea.

 And the current situation of "no" has only prevented any founder gear stuff from appearing for a few weeks/months. Just delaying the inevitable

Edited June 11, 2014 by dragonkingdx

[Eidolon_Slayer]

You guys are still arguing in that, no it shouldn't be released area. A solution has been mentioned multiple times. It's as if you guys are just arguing for the sake of increasing your post count. 

 

Release the Ak & Dual primes, however their appearance is completely different from the founder weapons.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Mikovsky

[OniDax]

Once again, you guys claim to want compromise, but you really just want people to accept your plan as is. You don't care at all about compromise. You've received suggestions that compromise, yet you've dismissed them. You only care about getting your way, and all you want is for us to agree to your suggestion. So please, stop with the compromise crap. You care nothing for it.

By the way, Mikovsky's post is the compromise, but again, you've dismissed it because you don't want compromise.

Edited June 11, 2014 by AntoineFlemming

[Azawarau]

Respectfully -and I mean that- there are some issues for which any compromise is a bad idea.  One obvious example is global warming.  Any compromise which continues to allow the planet to overheat but at a slower rate is a bad idea, even thought 'it's a compromise'.  Yes, it's better than overheating at a faster rate....but that's all it's better than.  And is that really a goal we all support?  Disaster, but at a later date?

 

Finding a workaround so that people who weren't in-game when a given exclusive was available can have something they didn't qualify for is simply a bad idea on it's face.  If I (or anyone else) know that we don't have to participate in DE's events in order to get some 'goodie' later on down the road, I don't think that's going to end up as a good idea from DE's standpoint, or one they will support.  If they want participation, then players have to believe that whatever the chatchke is DE's handing out won't be available after this weekend or what have you.  This compromise flies in the face of that concept, and for that reason (among others) I think it's a bad idea.

Off topic but for global warming the best compromise would be to slow down what we have going now and slowly work towards entirely new systems such as alternative fuels as replacements

 

 

 

Once again, you guys claim to want compromise, but you really just want people to accept your plan as is. You don't care at all about compromise. You've received suggestions that compromise, yet you've dismissed them. You only care about getting your way, and all you want is for us to agree to your suggestion. So please, stop with the compromise crap. You care nothing for it.

By the way, Mikovsky's post is the compromise, but again, you've dismissed it because you don't want compromise.

This thread is moving very fast and filled with trash so im not entirely sure but i have not seen many founder sided offer a compromise

Edited June 11, 2014 by Azawarau

[Khranitel]

There can be no middle ground between 'yes' and 'no', between '0' and '1', between 'true' or 'false'.

The question is simple: will the exclusive founder items, no matter in their original or dual form, stay exclusive or not.

Founders bought their packages under explicitly stated condition that every prime item that comes with it will stay exclusive and unobtainable by other means no matter what. And whatever reason they have, be it status swag or just greediness, they have every right to have it, because they fulfilled their part of the deal. And DE should fulfill theirs. As long there is a single founder who wish to keep them exclusive, they should be kept exclusive, or it will be just scam from DE side.

Did i say you specifically?

 

My apologies

 

 

I'm not willing to have conversation with some clown, who disguise his disrespect to his opponents with pun pics and guise of 'being sarcastic'. Goodbye.

[RoboDoge]

This thread needs to be burned to the ground.....

 

 

DERAILMENT is great in here.

[OniDax]

Well I'll ask: would you guys be ok with an aklato prime and dual skana prime that different models than the single variants?

[Khranitel]

You guys are still arguing in that, no it shouldn't be released area. A solution has been mentioned multiple times. It's as if you guys are just arguing for the sake of increasing your post count. 

 

Release the Ak & Dual primes, however their appearance is completely different from the founder weapons.

Well, you can release them with completely different names with the same degree of success. Why they should be called 'Aklato Prime' and 'Dual Skana Prime' at all after that?

Edited June 11, 2014 by Khranitel

[RoboDoge]

Well I'll ask: would you guys be ok with an aklato prime and dual skana prime that different models than the single variants?

They would be for a 3 seconds.

[Eidolon_Slayer]

Well, you can release them with completely different names with the same degree of success. Why they should call 'Aklato Prime' and 'Skana Prime' at all?

Because, people want Aklato Prime, and Dual Skana Prime. Giving them a different name would give these people an excuse to say... "This isn't what we want! YABASHSDASJDHSKAJDHASK JGIMMIE GIMMIE GIMMIEERHUIERHIJEAHRSKJAS!!?!"

Edited June 11, 2014 by Mikovsky

[Azawarau]

There can be no middle ground between 'yes' and 'no', between '0' and '1', between 'true' or 'false'.

The question is simple: will the exclusive founder items, no matter in their original or dual form, stay exclusive or not.

Founders bought their packages under explicitly stated condition that every prime item that comes with it will stay exclusive and unobtainable by other means no matter what. And whatever reason they have, be it status swag or just greediness, they have every right to have it, because they fulfilled their part of the deal. And DE should fulfill theirs. As long there is a single founder who wish to keep them exclusive, they should be kept exclusive, or it will be just scam from DE side.

I'm not willing to have conversation with some clown, who disguise his disrespect to his opponents with pun pics and guise of 'being sarcastic'. Goodbye.

Yes- maybe/possibly/kind of -No

 

0 .5  1

 

Just saying

 

And in my defense

 

That comic strip and the pun in it are hilariouis

 

You know you laughed

 

Because, people want Aklato Prime, and Dual Skana Prime. Giving them a different name would give these people an excuse to say... "This isn't what we want! YABASHSDASJDHSKAJDHASK JGIMMIE GIMMIE GIMMIEERHUIERHIJEAHRSKJAS!!?!"

Because its not

 

If it isnt that weapon it might as well be something else because its not that weapon

[Ionus]

Off topic but for global warming the best compromise would be to slow down what we have going now and slowly work towards entirely new systems such as alternative fuels as replacements

 

 

 

This thread is moving very fast and filled with trash so im not entirely sure but i have not seen many founder sided offer a compromise

There's always the controversy of global warming's existence.

[MeduSalem]

Well I'll ask: would you guys be ok with an aklato prime and dual skana prime that different models than the single variants?

 

They would be for a 3 seconds.

 

Because, people want Aklato Prime, and Dual Skana Prime. Giving them a different name would give these people an excuse to say... "This isn't what we want! YABASHSDASJDHSKAJDHASK JGIMMIE GIMMIE GIMMIEERHUIERHIJEAHRSKJAS!!?!"

 

 

 

So in conclusion both doesn't work:

 

Renaming doesn't work because then it's obviously not about Dual Skana/Aklato Prime anymore.

 

Other model doesn't work because then it's obviously also not the same as Skana/Lato Prime.

 

 

Both solutions would still beg for people to argue about having the REAL deal. Real Aklato Prime, Real Dual Skana Prime.

Edited June 11, 2014 by MeduSalem

[OniDax]

You see? You have your compromise and you reject it. Because it's YOU who isn't willing to do so.