Things That Needs To Be Balanced On Pvp - Updated U14

[Etsoree]

Introduction

 

Hello everyone, i am RexSol, i consider myself a PvP specialist in Warframe, that's the fun in the game for me. I have been in more than 20.000 Conclave matches and you can confirm this in my in-game profile. 

 

More than 20 matches? That's impressive!

 

TL;DR

 

This is a PvE game so of course things are going to be broken for PvP. Dark Sectors already have PvP elements, though they do not effect the actual outcome of the game whatsoever.

 

I highly doubt DE is gonna make any more PvP content any time soon, but you're saying "before" as if you have PROOF they're changing it. ( I haven't seen the latest stream ).

Edited July 2, 2014 by Etsoree

[Zirion_Bk]

 

I highly doubt DE is gonna make any more PvP content any time soon, but you're saying "before" as if you have PROOF they're changing it. ( I haven't seen the latest stream ).

I highly suggest that you look through the latest streams. DE has been talking a lot about Dark Sector PvP for a while now.

[.Talia.]

More than 20 matches? That's impressive!

 

TL;DR

 

This is a PvE game so of course things are going to be broken for PvP. Dark Sectors already have PvP elements, though they do not effect the actual outcome of the game whatsoever.

 

I highly doubt DE is gonna make any more PvP content any time soon, but you're saying "before" as if you have PROOF they're changing it. ( I haven't seen the latest stream ).

 

Yes there is "proof" they are improving the PvP aspect of the game... PvP is coming to the Dark Sectors, in a MOBA style mission (Although they don't call it MOBA its very similar)

 

 

in case embed don't work: http://youtu.be/AOPl10G-Ddo?t=24m18s

 

This will give you something challenging and fun to do, for a long time. The only true end-game! :)

Edited July 2, 2014 by RexSol

[R3DBelmont456]

A lot of these suggestions are good and in my honest opinion, a Good set of balancing options would be to:

 

1) Make Dedicated servers strictly for PvP to make modifying the game modes and whatnot easier and to allow more tenno to participate in a match at once.

 

2) Make PvP old school like: You cannot take any loadouts or mods, you start with a preset loadout with a preset, balanced build and all warframes start with no mods other than their skills and no ults (more on that later). If this cannot be done and loadouts HAVE to be taken in then make all weapons and frames start with no mods whatsoever and you simply earn them though the match as you play a la MOBA style.

 

3)You can also do this: all warframes no matter which you pick will have a preset loadout, preset stats and mods, however there will be weapons scattered all over the map, also with preset stats and mods, and your ult can only be used once via a powerup that can be picked up at certain intervals in an area with equal access to both sides so that it's more like a final smash rather than a broken, always have ability. This method in my opinion would be perfectly balanced for teamwork and map control.

 

4) This one's a must: add more gametypes, what's seriously missing in Warframe PvP atm is more Objective game modes that can be played VS tenno. Interception for instance which is basically Territories... just make a VS tenno version of it for conclave and DS PvP, you can also add CTF, 2 point mobile defense, LMS, KOTH, etc. In fact I would argue that making DS PvP strictly Objective based would make the PvP there more heavily teamwork based.

 

There's literally thousands of ways to balance PvP without it ever affecting PvE at all, the measures just gotta be taken to do so... and atm with no Dedicated servers and a Dated PvP system... Just look at how many other F2P games handle PvP balance Perfectly, and they're PvE based.

 

EDIT: on a side note, also make a more reasonable ranking system for "fairness". The conclave rating as it is now is beyond exploitable, it's easy for players to derank and grief low lvl conclaves with a mere tweak of their loadout and mods. Make it a level based ranking system like Halo 2 and 3 has OR just make the conclave rating exclusively to conclave games played rather than the equipment, frame and mods you have on...

Edited July 2, 2014 by R3DBelmont456

[Arunafeltz]

Thanks for bringing all of these up. +1 for balance's sake. Explosive weapons are still somewhat manageable in Conclave, but they would undoubtedly be a huge problem in the Dark Sector PvPs with all the precast and if there are mission objectives involved (etc terminals).

Edited July 3, 2014 by Arunafeltz

[Hayzemet]

ok just do not touch QT in pve

[Charismo]

if they can balance pvp without affecting pve at all, idc. however, after seeing games like WoW and Neverwinter that got their pve aspect of their games wrecked cuz they tried to balance pvp, i'm skeptical as to whether or not DE can pull this off. 

 

Not only does DE have the ability to make changes that are separate from PvE, they have already been doing it since Conclaves were released. I don't even play conclave and I know this. There's no reason to be skeptical over something so trivial to accomplish that is already being done.

 

It gets brought up in every single discussion. 

Edited July 16, 2014 by Charismo

[.Talia.]

Maybe now that the Solar Rail Conflicts are out DE fix these broken stuff :v

[Auramaru]

I agree with all of the points you made, Rexsol.

 

Going to do a quick recap:

1) Quick Thinking needs to be nerfed/reworked for PVP.

We've been asking for this for a long while, and DE has ignored our feedback.  (Strike one)

 

2) Reflex Guard needs to be nerfed/reworked for PVP.

We've been asking for this for a long while, and DE has ignored our feedback. (Strike two)

 

3) AOE Explosive weapons require a nerfed blast radius for PVP and solid objects (standing between the blast and the player) should negate the damage.

We've been asking for this for a long while, and DE has ignored our feedback. (Strike three)

 

4) Hysteria requires a nerf: Switching from complete invulnerability to 80% damage reduction NOT including the Valkyr's armor value.

You mentioned how the forums would be filled with "nerf plz" topics after the solar rail pvp went live, and you were absolutely right.  DE seems to have made NO attempt at balancing this ability before releasing it.

 

5) Bladestorm requires a nerf and is currently bugged in that it hits all enemies continuously until they are all dead.

Fortunately, with our "conclave code of honor", this is never an issue.  It ESPECIALLY isn't an issue because there is only one energy orb on the map.  Because energy is ridiculously abundant in DSPVP, this ability needs a nerf.  I think that if energy were more scarce (not infinitely available), this wouldn't be as infamous as it is now.  There's a lot of ways they can balance this and  if they DON'T balance this ability soon with all of the negative feedback topics popping up, then people will be outraged.  

 

As a sidenote: a rumor I heard was that you can block this ability with reflex guard or with just plain melee blocking.

 

6) Black Energy Invisibility is bugged and makes the player completely invisible.

We've been pointing this out for a long while, and DE has ignored our feedback. (Strike four)

 

7) Shuriken: Bleed proc damage needs a nerf.  The Shuriken's initial damage should be a set % of damage.

My opinion on this is similar to my opinion on Bladestorm.  It wouldn't be as big of an issue if energy were more scarce.  However, with the energy being as abundant as it is, this abilities' damage requires some sort of change.

 

 

The ability problems you point out could all be nerfed or balanced in a multitude of ways.  My favorite idea is that energy should be less available, and you it would get less of a rise out of players, but that doesn't change the fact that they don't require any skill (you don't have to target players for shuriken to kill and you don't need to target all the players that bladestorm kills).

 

Overall, we have a list of at least FOUR things that DE has ignored from previous, unanimous feedback.  

DE needs to make a statement on what they are planning for PVP, because they left it in a shattered state.  It's weird because they seem so... "okay" with how broken everything is.

 

Rexsol, you posted this a while back, and something that I really think sticks out in the original post is that you predicted that the forums would be flooded with "nerf plz" threads... and your prediction rang true.

 

This thread deserves a signal boost and DE should take this advice to heart.  Nice thread, glad you're putting the thoughts into balance that DE DIDN'T.  Cheers!

[.Talia.]

-snip-

 

Thanks for the support and for the very constructive reply Auramau!

By the way, DE_Steve said on the last Prime Time, that they are currently working on some Balancing changes. I'm very excited for these changes, because right now the Dark Sectors PvP is completely broken. (As expected! No offense, DE.)

 

http://youtu.be/aYxbZlXw6-M?t=37m45s

 

He mentions direct health damage a.k.a. Toxin Damage, procs were mentioned (possibly forced slash procs that are a death sentence) he mentions Weapon Imbalance Issues (Maybe Eplosives?) and even mentions Power Balance (Ability balancing finally!!) So that would cover a big part of this topic if done right, and i hope they do it right. :)

Edited July 25, 2014 by RexSol

[Rompido]

DE's seem to be very good at listening to things PVE side. But when they announced back in April 24 about possible Dark sector PVP I told them far in advance issues that would arise if they did not address it before it came live. I sent out mass private messages to over 3 DE's 3 MONTHS in advance of things that would be a problem. I even have a screen shot of my entire PM should anyone want to take a look at it.

 

 

some things I warn about in my PM to the DE's

 

"Amount of players allowed in solar rail pvp.

this is a tough one. I think 4 players max like any other mission would make pvp much much more interesting. but if that's allowed a lot of warframe abilities will have to be removed from it.

should abilities or mods be prohibited from solar rail pvp?

could you imagine 4 trins with blessing going up VS 4 trins with blessing? perhaps all abilities should be removed. how about the reflection mod, imagine all 4 players on the same team just holding reflection as they run around ? where is the in either of those 2 things? turns into nothing but a gimmick 1 trick pony fight and the fights would never end."

 

once again this was written 3 months ago. before Trin's blessing was nerfed. but I sent them all this PM and warned them about allowing warframe abilites in dark sector pvp

 

should there be an objective?

I strongly think there should be. rather than just who kills who. I suggest a sabatoge type objective. where the defending team will always try and stop the attacking team from landing their bomb into the reactors of the defending team. mission is over once defending team eliminates all attacking team members or attacking team places the explosive into the defending team's station ( the defending team and attacking team should spawn equal distance away from where ever the bomb needs to be placed )

 

I nailed it there. very fun way to play Dark Sector PVP rather then conclave style. I'm gald they listened to my suggestion. oh wait... no one read it......

 

and other things I said in my PM are close to what they did but once agian no one read it.

[Rakshal]

Great list of problems in PvP and possible solutions.

 

PS: Not a seasoned PvP player like you thought. :P

Edited July 26, 2014 by Rakshal

[Skaleek]

These changes are all good with the caveat that they remain pvp specific and do not affect pve(which i think was stipulated in the OP).

[Flarestar]

 

Yes, PvP Balance is possible

 

Stopped reading right there.

 

No, it's not.  Other games have been trying for years to balance games with substantially fewer classes and equipment variations and still can't do it.  The sheer number of combinations possible in Warframe ensures that balance is impossible.  The *best* you can hope for is a very small subset of the frames and weapons available to be balanced against each other, and even that's unlikely to happen.  The sheer amount of resources that will have to be devoted to achieve just that smaller effort would be massively detrimental to the progression of the game as a whole.

[Auramaru]

Stopped reading right there.

 

No, it's not.  Other games have been trying for years to balance games with substantially fewer classes and equipment variations and still can't do it.  The sheer number of combinations possible in Warframe ensures that balance is impossible.  The *best* you can hope for is a very small subset of the frames and weapons available to be balanced against each other, and even that's unlikely to happen.  The sheer amount of resources that will have to be devoted to achieve just that smaller effort would be massively detrimental to the progression of the game as a whole.

Then you're really ignorant for not even taking a look at the solutions he offered.  They're mostly number/stat changes.  So it wouldn't take as many "resources" as you say.

[Rakshal]

Stopped reading right there.

 

No, it's not.  Other games have been trying for years to balance games with substantially fewer classes and equipment variations and still can't do it.  The sheer number of combinations possible in Warframe ensures that balance is impossible.  The *best* you can hope for is a very small subset of the frames and weapons available to be balanced against each other, and even that's unlikely to happen.  The sheer amount of resources that will have to be devoted to achieve just that smaller effort would be massively detrimental to the progression of the game as a whole.

*facepalm*

[.Talia.]

Stopped reading right there.

 

No, it's not.  Other games have been trying for years to balance games with substantially fewer classes and equipment variations and still can't do it.  The sheer number of combinations possible in Warframe ensures that balance is impossible.  The *best* you can hope for is a very small subset of the frames and weapons available to be balanced against each other, and even that's unlikely to happen.  The sheer amount of resources that will have to be devoted to achieve just that smaller effort would be massively detrimental to the progression of the game as a whole.

 

What's your point? Let me guess, All PvP should be removed entirely. LOL

[Apriori]

I don't like the idea of nerfing the abilities of our warframes, just because: they are strong. I mean really, fu**ing hell strong. That's what this game is about, playing like a little god and taking out the enemies in the most bombastically way.

 

So instead I would suggest cooldown on abilities particularly for pvp maps.

 

Let Val keep her invulnerabilty, but she can only use this - let's say - only every 2 minutes. So you have to time your Hysteria - no more staying in godmode the whole match.

Same goes for every other skill.

[Monster-T]

Imho the aoe-explosive weapons should not be touched yet. Why? Ammo 2.0 that DE is planning. When a Penta only have 20 granades I bet it would be balanced enough.

EDIT: Apriori's idea is quite nice; cooldowns!

Edited August 2, 2014 by Monster-T

[Whytee]

Stopped reading right there.

 

No, it's not.  Other games have been trying for years to balance games with substantially fewer classes and equipment variations and still can't do it.  The sheer number of combinations possible in Warframe ensures that balance is impossible.  The *best* you can hope for is a very small subset of the frames and weapons available to be balanced against each other, and even that's unlikely to happen.  The sheer amount of resources that will have to be devoted to achieve just that smaller effort would be massively detrimental to the progression of the game as a whole.

 

Fortunately, you are wrong. Balance can be achieved.

 

One of the biggest barriers, however, is very few people truly understand what balancing is. In fact, very few game developers truly grasp the concept, which is why it is so difficult to balance many games. It is NOT about straight-up nerfs to weapons or abilities.

 

RexSol, I appreciate your effort in creating this thread, but it doesn't address the real issues of why abilities are overpowered, and the 'solutions' are more or less just plain band-aid nerfs, which ignore the root cause of the mod or ability being overpowered or imbalanced.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Whytee

[.Talia.]

Fortunately, you are wrong. Balance can be achieved.

 

One of the biggest barriers, however, is very few people truly understand what balancing is. In fact, very few game developers truly grasp the concept, which is why it is so difficult to balance many games. It is NOT about straight-up nerfs to weapons or abilities.

 

RexSol, I appreciate your effort in creating this thread, but it doesn't address the real issues of why abilities are overpowered, and the 'solutions' are more or less just plain band-aid nerfs, which ignore the root cause of the mod or ability being overpowered or imbalanced.

 

I disagree that these are band-aid solutions, these suggestions would address the root of the problems. A band-aid solution is for example reducing the duration Hysteria, because it does not solve the root problem (Godmode, Activating all Objectives and Reviving Fallen Allies unstoppable). Feel free to add your own suggestions to fix what is unbalanced too.

[Whytee]

I disagree that these are band-aid solutions, these suggestions would address the root of the problems. A band-aid solution is for example reducing the duration Hysteria, because it does not solve the root problem (Godmode, Activating all Objectives and Reviving Fallen Allies unstoppable). Feel free to add your own suggestions to fix what is unbalanced too.

 

The question is 'What makes this imbalanced?'

 

The answer is the same for everything. It has nothing to do with damage. It has nothing to do with godmode. It has nothing to do with duration. 

 

The answer is 'There is no counter to it'.

 

The way to balance these abilities, is not to directly change the numbers. Reducing duration, reducing damage, and general nerfs to the effectiveness is not balance. These are examples of band-aid fixes.

 

The real problem is players have no tools to deal with it. If you get targeted by Blade Storm, no amount of skilled play of clever use of abilities will save you. You're going to die and there's nothing you can do about it.

 

What you have to change, is how the skill/mod/weapon/whatever interacts with players. If the player cannot do anything about it, using his own skills/abilities/weapon/whatever - then you have imbalance. 

 

An example of how balancing should and shouldn't be done, using Vauban (one of the current 'OP' Dark Sector frames) as an example:

 

Reducing Damage and Duration of Vauban's skillset would be a band-aid nerf. Even if it balances the frame, it is still an example of bad balance, since it is simply nerfing the frame, making the game easier and less skill-driven.

 

An example of good balance would be to allow the players to disable Vauban's traps, via destroying the small grenades. This would be similar to how Frost's Snowglobe works - the trap is powerful in of itself, but players are able to quickly disable and destroy it when it is used incorrectly.

 

This is allowing the player to use the tools at their disposal to outsmart or outplay their opponent, rather than simply making the skill less effective.

[.Talia.]

 

The question is 'What makes this imbalanced?'

 

The answer is the same for everything. It has nothing to do with damage. It has nothing to do with godmode. It has nothing to do with duration. 

 

The answer is 'There is no counter to it'.

 

The way to balance these abilities, is not to directly change the numbers. Reducing duration, reducing damage, and general nerfs to the effectiveness is not balance. These are examples of band-aid fixes.

 

The real problem is players have no tools to deal with it. If you get targeted by Blade Storm, no amount of skilled play of clever use of abilities will save you. You're going to die and there's nothing you can do about it.

 

What you have to change, is how the skill/mod/weapon/whatever interacts with players. If the player cannot do anything about it, using his own skills/abilities/weapon/whatever - then you have imbalance. 

 

An example of how balancing should and shouldn't be done, using Vauban (one of the current 'OP' Dark Sector frames) as an example:

 

Reducing Damage and Duration of Vauban's skillset would be a band-aid nerf. Even if it balances the frame, it is still an example of bad balance, since it is simply nerfing the frame, making the game easier and less skill-driven.

 

An example of good balance would be to allow the players to disable Vauban's traps, via destroying the small grenades. This would be similar to how Frost's Snowglobe works - the trap is powerful in of itself, but players are able to quickly disable and destroy it when it is used incorrectly.

 

This is allowing the player to use the tools at their disposal to outsmart or outplay their opponent, rather than simply making the skill less effective.

 

I get your point. Now you are giving some nice suggestions instead of just saying NO. Good idea on how to counter the Vauban's traps. 

[Azawarau]

 

The question is 'What makes this imbalanced?'

 

The answer is the same for everything. It has nothing to do with damage. It has nothing to do with godmode. It has nothing to do with duration. 

 

The answer is 'There is no counter to it'.

 

The way to balance these abilities, is not to directly change the numbers. Reducing duration, reducing damage, and general nerfs to the effectiveness is not balance. These are examples of band-aid fixes.

 

The real problem is players have no tools to deal with it. If you get targeted by Blade Storm, no amount of skilled play of clever use of abilities will save you. You're going to die and there's nothing you can do about it.

 

What you have to change, is how the skill/mod/weapon/whatever interacts with players. If the player cannot do anything about it, using his own skills/abilities/weapon/whatever - then you have imbalance. 

 

An example of how balancing should and shouldn't be done, using Vauban (one of the current 'OP' Dark Sector frames) as an example:

 

Reducing Damage and Duration of Vauban's skillset would be a band-aid nerf. Even if it balances the frame, it is still an example of bad balance, since it is simply nerfing the frame, making the game easier and less skill-driven.

 

An example of good balance would be to allow the players to disable Vauban's traps, via destroying the small grenades. This would be similar to how Frost's Snowglobe works - the trap is powerful in of itself, but players are able to quickly disable and destroy it when it is used incorrectly.

 

This is allowing the player to use the tools at their disposal to outsmart or outplay their opponent, rather than simply making the skill less effective.

Honestly

 

Thats alot like the suggestions for PvE

 

Having enemies simply disable trinitys blessing VS making her an actual healer

 

I did make a suggestion similar to this for PvE that was limited to ancient disruptors but alot of it was infested just being terribly easy to control

 

In this case having something completely disable Vaubans abilities might lead to some more balance issues

 

The first one is who or what disables it

 

if its a frame like loki with radial disarm then loki becomes almost required as a counter

 

If loki disarms frost and volt shields and various slow debuffs of frames then he becomes even more necessary

 

But lets say lokis disarm only works on frost and mirages sleight of hand only works on vauban

 

Then the matches become a big game of RPS for dominance

 

Lowering the duration and slow effect to be low enough to have control of the opponent but not make it useless is better IMO

 

Alot of the early issues come from how much energy we get and how low energy costs can be with mods

[Rompido]

Can we get a DE to print this out and hand these idea's out to everyone working on this game?