PRO VERSION sucks now

[TeamWorkTom]

There seems to be a lot of elitism in here.

Its really simply to make a game fail, you offer Power for Real Money. It causes two problems.

Problem 1. The Free player feels forced to spend money on the game and may eventually quit because of it losing a potential customer for ever.

Problem 2. It shortens the game. Yes thats right, people being able to buy power shortens the game. It also creates double the work for designing content. You need to balance out the Power Buyers with the Free Players. If you fail to do both you get a fleeting playerbase. You can't completely balance the game around the Free Players because the Power Buyers will smash everything infront of them. If you balance the game based on the Power Buyers then you have a game where you see Problem 1, and if the Power Increase is not worth the money spent then you won't have Power Buyers.

You could lay out many solutions for balancing Power Buyers vrs Free Players and I am sure anyone will find most solutions the problem only creates more problems. (can't say all but I doubt there is a good solution that dosn't open up further problems.)

In the end its what ever this team of developers want to do, but they should seriously look into game psychology, meaning what players actually want vrs what they say they want. What model of pricing for a f2p game gives players satisfaction in playing free but entices but not forces them to spend money on the game.

To those that say "don't play this game then" or "this game isn't for you" is the last words of any business that isn't established and has a rabid following and creates the worst type of elitiest community further alienating newer players.

Edited January 9, 2013 by TeamWorkTom

[JagerWulf]

Sorry I don't see the problem with paying to open pro for money, it costs a $1 or less to open the pro skills, it's not a biggie, people spend far more on junk food, if you like this game then let them make some money to keep it up and running, what is it with people they expect it to be all free, what the dev's are suppose to make this game for us out of love, come on learn to use Paypal and pay up and stop being a bunch of cheapskates.

[[DE]Steve]

Hey DESteve why not comment when I wrote a topic about it ...

This pro version is unfair to the free to play community! Is this game free to play or not?!

you guys should have items like cosmetics and Unique Items for sale not give us free to play gamers a demo like game ...

I miss a lot of threads. I have also answered in detail in several, repeating myself several times. I am sorry I missed yours.

While I respect your position and I appreciate how passionately and articulately you've shared it I don't agree your solution is a slam-bam, fixed, game is making money, everyone is happy, forums are ghost town because satisfaction is guaranteed. If you are waiting for a 'pure cosmetics-only' version of Warframe, I am sorry, but I can't see it happening in the near term.

I totally respect your opinion, and I don't think we're far apart on this issue (e.g. I am creating a crafting alternative for Pro) but as I have explained elsewhere, its a gross oversimplification to look at LoL or TF2 and say "Hey look, it worked for them!" TF2 was a commercial product. Made its money back for Valve and more. Then it went f2p. Now they added coop and sell tickets to play on servers. They have... what? A decade of dev time into it? What about copying LoL? I'm sorry, but any hardened LoL player I've talked laughs at claims its cosmetics-only. It is the most played game on the planet. It is PvP. Its a bit like telling your local bookshop to copy Amazon. It doesn't work, we have different constraints, we don't have investment capital, we don't have an existing mod playerbase to harvest.

Thanks for you time on the forums and I hope you stick around despite my disagreements with some of your points.

[Aido-Hwedo]

I miss a lot of threads. I have also answered in detail in several, repeating myself several times. I am sorry I missed yours.

While I respect your position and I appreciate how passionately and articulately you've shared it I don't agree your solution is a slam-bam, fixed, game is making money, everyone is happy, forums are ghost town because satisfaction is guaranteed. If you are waiting for a 'pure cosmetics-only' version of Warframe, I am sorry, but I can't see it happening in the near term.

I totally respect your opinion, and I don't think we're far apart on this issue (e.g. I am creating a crafting alternative for Pro) but as I have explained elsewhere, its a gross oversimplification to look at LoL or TF2 and say "Hey look, it worked for them!" TF2 was a commercial product. Made its money back for Valve and more. Then it went f2p. Now they added coop and sell tickets to play on servers. They have... what? A decade of dev time into it? What about copying LoL? I'm sorry, but any hardened LoL player I've talked laughs at claims its cosmetics-only. It is the most played game on the planet. It is PvP. Its a bit like telling your local bookshop to copy Amazon. It doesn't work, we have different constraints, we don't have investment capital, we don't have an existing mod playerbase to harvest.

Thanks for you time on the forums and I hope you stick around despite my disagreements with some of your points.

.. I have nothing but respect for your for typing that.

[Aggh]

League of Legends is an extremely simplistic game that was ripped off a map for Warcraft 3 and is insanely popular. It isn't a business model that can be replicated without INSANE player numbers. Planetside 2's shop has items that cannot be obtained in-game. LoTRO is a great example of how F2P should be done.

He does have a good point though I should get an MBA at some point instead of playin' all these video games.

Not true at all. There is not a single gameplay item that is cash only in Ps2.

[MegatechBody]

You have my respect for responding to that in such a respectful and well thought out way DESteve. Honestly I don't think he deserved it but hey I ain't the one who should make that decision.

Not true at all. There is not a single gameplay item that is cash only in Ps2.

Yo grinding for 600 hours is not equivalent, also I was basing that on asking people about the game and they told me it did. Oh well, I'm going to trust a BBS more than one person without a citation.

Edited January 9, 2013 by MegatechBody

[Mezecs]

The prices for all items needs to be increased across the board (credits), selling mods and picking up credits means you're getting so much so fast. I've had 200K credits, and I haven't even played that much.

I guess if PRO was like 150K-250K it would be okay, but making it less, erm that would make it too easy, as it's the most useful thing in the entire game.

Are you insane? That's 600k-1M for a full set!

Considering it's only 20 plat that's incredibly disproportional.

[Seventhwolf]

If you are waiting for a 'pure cosmetics-only' version of Warframe, I am sorry, but I can't see it happening in the near term.

I like this phrase :D

[Seventhwolf]

Are you insane? That's 600k-1M for a full set!

Considering it's only 20 plat that's incredibly disproportional.

Play for it. Even though we pay with real money, we first must earn them by working for a real job(or get it from birthdays or parents etc.). I am glad if they're going to make it expensive.

[Mezecs]

Play for it. Even though we pay with real money, we first must earn them by working for a real job(or get it from birthdays or parents etc.). I am glad if they're going to make it expensive.

I could probably find 5 bucks off the street before I could get 600k creds.

I like this phrase :D

How is it a good thing?

[Seventhwolf]

Well, I said etc. in the end so I leave that neutral. I like the phrase because players like to have platinum only weapons because others can't have. We, payers, want something in return if Pro is going to be available as well for non-payers. That said, why don't you seek $5 then?

Edited January 9, 2013 by Seventhwolf

[Aggh]

You have my respect for responding to that in such a respectful and well thought out way DESteve. Honestly I don't think he deserved it but hey I ain't the one who should make that decision.

Yo grinding for 600 hours is not equivalent, also I was basing that on asking people about the game and they told me it did. Oh well, I'm going to trust a BBS more than one person without a citation.

People that complain about cert prices are either bad or haven't been able to figure out how to earn xp quickly. Hop in a vehicle, farm infantry and you'll wonder why you ever whined about certs. There are people that have reached BR 100 already (which the devs projected would take years) just from farming liberator runs :|

I miss a lot of threads. I have also answered in detail in several, repeating myself several times. I am sorry I missed yours.

While I respect your position and I appreciate how passionately and articulately you've shared it I don't agree your solution is a slam-bam, fixed, game is making money, everyone is happy, forums are ghost town because satisfaction is guaranteed. If you are waiting for a 'pure cosmetics-only' version of Warframe, I am sorry, but I can't see it happening in the near term.

I totally respect your opinion, and I don't think we're far apart on this issue (e.g. I am creating a crafting alternative for Pro) but as I have explained elsewhere, its a gross oversimplification to look at LoL or TF2 and say "Hey look, it worked for them!" TF2 was a commercial product. Made its money back for Valve and more. Then it went f2p. Now they added coop and sell tickets to play on servers. They have... what? A decade of dev time into it? What about copying LoL? I'm sorry, but any hardened LoL player I've talked laughs at claims its cosmetics-only. It is the most played game on the planet. It is PvP. Its a bit like telling your local bookshop to copy Amazon. It doesn't work, we have different constraints, we don't have investment capital, we don't have an existing mod playerbase to harvest.

Thanks for you time on the forums and I hope you stick around despite my disagreements with some of your points.

No one here has claimed it is either, but as they have noted there are plenty of successful f2p games that aren't offering gameplay items for cash only. It's an established taboo in gaming, regarldess of whether the game is PvP or not.

Part of the problem is how easy you've made it to earn credits. While it's nice to easily be able to get new weapons, it means most people aren't going to feel the need to spend any money on them.

Part of why LOL's model works is because the grind for enough IP to get a new hero is pretty long and thus plenty of players are willing to shell out cash for them. Finding that sweet spot for microtransactions and the grind for the f2p purchase model is a big part of where LOL's success lies. People aren't turned off by the grind, but enough people are willing to spend cash to just get what they want outright.

Pro stepped on some toes just because of the p2win taboo, but worse than that is outright forcing people to spend cash on stuff. The slot system for war frames is very close to this. Sure you can spend hours and hours grinding for all the parts and resources for war frames and then 3.5 days crafting them, but if you actually want to use them, you'll have to spend cash. Successful f2p games sell convenience, not gameplay, having to spend money to keep replay value is selling gameplay.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Aggh

[Mezecs]

Well, I said etc. in the end so I leave that neutral. I like the phrase because players like to have platinum only weapons because others can't have. We, payers, want something in return if Pro is going to be available as well for non-payers.

Right, so you're scum who supports pay to win...

The game is supposedly "free to play", if you lock any content behind a pay wall (other than cosmetics) then the game ISNT free to play, it's a demo, or a trial.

That said, why don't you seek $5 then?

Ooh look, a straw man.

My point was that a credit cost that high is simply rediculous in comparrison to the platinum cost.

[DresiK.]

Part of why LOL's model works is because the grind for enough IP to get a new hero is pretty long and thus plenty of players are willing to shell out cash for them. Finding that sweet spot for microtransactions and the grind for the f2p purchase model is a big part of where LOL's success lies. People aren't turned off by the grind, but enough people are willing to spend cash to just get what they want outright.

With the lol think i agree you have to waste like 1-3 weeks depands how offten you play just to buy new champ and Most of people go easy way buy it with REAL money

yep thats the JACKPOT off this game credits are WAY easy to gain

@DESTEVE

most people gona post/spam this xx time but you have to balance like Go For Pro

1) Real Money Fine by me ! (easy way)

2) Farm some quest items (lets say 200-300h) (hard way)

but in the end your not FORCED too use only real money

your choice : 200 h+ vs real money

Tera : Free Player Vs Pay Player = well made free mode :)

Edited January 9, 2013 by jimomateusz

[Aggh]

With the lol think i agree you have to waste like 1-3 weeks depands how offten you play just to buy new champ and Most of people go easy way buy it woth REAL money

yep thats the JACKPOT off this game credits are WAY easy to gain

@DESTEVE

most people gona post/spam this xx time but you have to balance like Go For Pro

1) Real Money Fine by me ! (easy way)

2) Farm some quest items (lets say 200-300h) (hard way)

but in the end your not FORCED too use only real money

your choice : 200 h+ vs real money

1-3 weeks isn't even that bad as far as f2p games go either. In AVA it takes more than a month to grind for a new gun after you've earned all your medals (long term achievements with sizeable in game currency awards) :|

[Malachia]

I dont think money should get you purely cosmetics, it should be able to get you the frames and weapons you want faster than it would take to farm them. But if there are advancment options that you cant get without paying, then its no different than the trial version of WoW.

You can play WoW for free for as much as you like, but you only get to lvl 20.

Its no better than a demo version of the game, and unless you pay to buy the game you dont get the full content.

I think that by defenition that is absolutley not a f2p buisness structure.

[Seventhwolf]

Right, so you're scum who supports pay to win...

The game is supposedly "free to play", if you lock any content behind a pay wall (other than cosmetics) then the game ISNT free to play, it's a demo, or a trial.

Ooh look, a straw man.

My point was that a credit cost that high is simply rediculous in comparrison to the platinum cost.

So far my concern, you can still completely "finish" the game by completing all missions (roughly said) and replay it. I play the game mostly with Ash and want him to be completely free from Pro upgrade. I can play missions and finish them on solo except for the boss missions. I join my friends in the fight even though they haven't pro either. Think about the weapons now which are available especially about the Gorgon which is a perfect boss killer. So yeah, you can put extra mods of the pro upgrade on a gorgon like extra ammo, but teaming together(why are you even against your online teammates who have pro you straw man? :P) you don't even need this. I always have like 300 bullets left when killing the Jackal and when I hear you can get about more (or not) than 999 bullets, it isn't really necessary to upgrade it to pro, unless you miss a lot. It's a co-op game :D

Edit: if this game is going to be PvP with the platinum system, I am going to side with the none-payers

Edited January 9, 2013 by Seventhwolf

[Aggh]

So far my concern, you can still completely "finish" the game by completing all missions (roughly said) and replay it. I play the game mostly with Ash and want him to be completely free from Pro upgrade. I can play missions and finish them on solo except for the boss missions. I join my friends in the fight even though they haven't pro either. Think about the weapons now which are available especially about the Gorgon which is a perfect boss killer. So yeah, you can put extra mods of the pro upgrade on a gorgon like extra ammo, but teaming together(why are you even against your online teammates who have pro you straw man? :P) you don't even need this. I always have like 300 bullets left when killing the Jackal and when I hear you can get about more (or not) than 999 bullets, it isn't really necessary to upgrade it to pro, unless you miss a lot.

Edit: if this game is going to be PvP with the platinum system, I am going to side with the none-payers

Try that with the Councilor vey Hek (the boss on earth) and see if you still think that. I've been on teams all w/ fully upgraded weapons and they still can run out, and you can't rely on melee to finish him off reliably since he has a hek :|

Edited January 9, 2013 by Aggh

[ParadigmFallen]

I'd be fine with it being around 30,000 to 50,000 creds for pro ver. Tho some may feel otherwise buts thats a diffrent matter.

Aye, this works for me. Requires multiple runs in-game, which in that time they could acrue some level up points. Now that said, maybe DE could make it so that as you get more and more pro-upgraded items in your current warframe, it would cost more credits? That, to me, sounds like a nice way to create a grinding curve that's fair and realistic and makes you have to choose what matters most to as a fully-optimized part of your loadout.

[Seventhwolf]

Try that with the everest boss on earth and see if you still think that :|

Beaten him twice, but never going to do that any more :P. It took a while, but it was worth it. Glad I cleared that yellow spot on my solar system.

[Seventhwolf]

Aye, this works for me. Requires multiple runs in-game, which in that time they could acrue some level up points. Now that said, maybe DE could make it so that as you get more and more pro-upgraded items in your current warframe, it would cost more credits? That, to me, sounds like a nice way to create a grinding curve that's fair and realistic and makes you have to choose what matters most to as a fully-optimized part of your loadout.

Agreed :D but people only need like 4 upgrades(if they choose wisely), but it's a good idea

/sign

[ParadigmFallen]

So far my concern, you can still completely "finish" the game by completing all missions (roughly said) and replay it. I play the game mostly with Ash and want him to be completely free from Pro upgrade. I can play missions and finish them on solo except for the boss missions. I join my friends in the fight even though they haven't pro either. Think about the weapons now which are available especially about the Gorgon which is a perfect boss killer. So yeah, you can put extra mods of the pro upgrade on a gorgon like extra ammo, but teaming together(why are you even against your online teammates who have pro you straw man? :P) you don't even need this. I always have like 300 bullets left when killing the Jackal and when I hear you can get about more (or not) than 999 bullets, it isn't really necessary to upgrade it to pro, unless you miss a lot. It's a co-op game :D

Edit: if this game is going to be PvP with the platinum system, I am going to side with the none-payers

Hey hey hey -- lets not turn this into a warground. Warframe's a good game no matter what. We're all here to have fun being space ninjas fighting evil empires and corrupt organizations turning our solar system to slag. I'm not happy about the idea of needing to pay money at some point, but I can also understand why the devs may need that (I mean, lets face it, Homefront didn't sell as nicely as I imagine they were hoping for. That said, I'm still playing the brilliant MP you guys at DE made!).

Everything needs to be in moderation. Some things (like Affinity boosts) should just be paid via money. Others (like Warframe blueprints) should be available with credits or platinum. Figuring out the sweet spot is the important part, which is partially why I suspect they included the market in the beta to begin with. It's not like DE is Zynga or something -- if they ever wipe accounts back down to level 1, they give back platinum and credits as we originally had them, free for us to spend again if we so wish. I'd say they're being pretty reasonable thus far.

[ParadigmFallen]

Agreed :D but people only need like 4 upgrades(if they choose wisely), but it's a good idea

/sign

If they're going to be foolish, I doubt there's little we can do to stop them. Might as well be to the benefit of the game as a whole.

[[DE]Steve]

Read my lips: Pro is gonna go. And soon. Everything else in this game is craftable. The best melee gear can't even be bought with Platinum.

Ideally I would work for free and give you a foot massage, but right now we are just a small team of entrepeneurs that are listening, trying to make you happy all while staying in business at the same time. Real scumbags! :)

[Seventhwolf]

If they're going to be foolish, I doubt there's little we can do to stop them. Might as well be to the benefit of the game as a whole.

We are not turning this forum to a warground(at least I am not and never will but that guy just couldn't let the word scum out of his post even though I ignored it). But on-topic: I agree Pro should be able for none-payers and that they should earn unlimited pro upgrades, but shouldn't the developers let them work for it? I just like the idea before(and more other ideas) and I'd like to know when the devs are going to reveal how it will be in the future. The game so far is awesome (alright I mentioned that already in the Design Council sorry).

Edited January 9, 2013 by Seventhwolf