HurpadurpusRex Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I would prefer they stop telling us drop locations at all. They have a codex scanner, it should just log rewards that you have found in the void and the number of runs you have made on any given tower, and the average time of the runs. Theres no reason for them to tell us any of it. I feel like the max information gathering and knowledge base have been reduced, resulting in a lower skill requirement, and ruining the mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weirdee Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) I would prefer they stop telling us drop locations at all. They have a codex scanner, it should just log rewards that you have found in the void and the number of runs you have made on any given tower, and the average time of the runs. Theres no reason for them to tell us any of it. I feel like the max information gathering and knowledge base have been reduced, resulting in a lower skill requirement, and ruining the mystery. haha okay, i would accept this in a paid game because there they don't have any motivation to arrange the system to appear as if it is possible to obtain new content in a reasonable fashion but i can't really trust them to do this when they present the alternative for between fifty and eighty bucks in addition, even world of warcraft shows their drop tables, and as much as i hate comparisons to world of warcraft, their willingness to show that some of their raid drops are actually crazy rare (and successful raids have a cooldown to stop farming) at least tells me that they are willing to admit doing so i've repeatedly proposed that the store and its prices has to be a reasonable alternative to gameplay, but it appears that they have doubled down in the other direction and want to subsist on the "whales" model which i can't really approve of unless this is really not what they intended and they can prove it, there is not much reason for me to continue to support this game when so many others will fight for my attention i liked this game because there wasn't any previous pressure to make decisions that would determine whether or not i could enjoy playing it, and i advocated the way they handled things, but if they want to hard truth me into a S#&$ty model but force me to actually figure it out myself first so that they can shake any loose change from my pockets until I realize it, i can't abide by that i'll work with having to pay for item slots that aren't worth much to them, and i'll even bother to cough up for shiny bits that allow me to actually use their modding system to its actual potential even though it's basically a lie that everybody covers for (like seriously, 30 points is borderline useless even with basic mods), but the moment i'm forced to decide between sacrificing my gameplay and money in order to get something, and ruining the game for myself because i can't actually reach the goal i'm aiming for without playing more than an hour a day, is where i'd have to draw that line that design don't jive Edited June 17, 2014 by weirdee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-CM-Trives Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 What, precisely, does them releasing the data do, except drum up a lot of nerd rage. Your odds are still going to suck at getting anything, whether or not you know the numbers. If you're really curious about it, create a spreadsheet. Get actual data. Keep collecting data until you get your helm. Also, you should be specific in your data, so, what item dropped for each 5 minute interval, etc... Not just "Got It", "Didn't Get It". The data is out there, you just have to collect it. Then you can rage to that, instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggh Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) I would prefer they stop telling us drop locations at all. They have a codex scanner, it should just log rewards that you have found in the void and the number of runs you have made on any given tower, and the average time of the runs. Theres no reason for them to tell us any of it. I feel like the max information gathering and knowledge base have been reduced, resulting in a lower skill requirement, and ruining the mystery. Only if they include the mission rewards and drop chances in there, because they actually said they were going to do that and never followed through. What, precisely, does them releasing the data do, except drum up a lot of nerd rage. Your odds are still going to suck at getting anything, whether or not you know the numbers. If you're really curious about it, create a spreadsheet. Get actual data. Keep collecting data until you get your helm. Also, you should be specific in your data, so, what item dropped for each 5 minute interval, etc... Not just "Got It", "Didn't Get It". The data is out there, you just have to collect it. Then you can rage to that, instead. Because they won't be able to "accidentally" set rewards at a .67% drop chance like they did with forma and T3 keys. And the argument that people should be logging data for rewards is hilarious. A.) DE changes/adds to the rewards too often b.) I sincerely doubt there are enough reliable people to build up a proper sample size with accurate data each time DE changes it C.) We shouldn't need to do this and D.) DE actually said they would give this info to us. Edited June 17, 2014 by Aggh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorinar Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 Only if they include the mission rewards and drop chances in there, because they actually said they were going to do that and never followed through. Because they won't be able to "accidentally" set rewards at a .67% drop chance like they did with forma and T3 keys. And the argument that people should be logging data for rewards is hilarious. A.) DE changes/adds to the rewards too often b.) I sincerely doubt there are enough reliable people to build up a proper sample size with accurate data each time DE changes it C.) We shouldn't need to do this and D.) DE actually said they would give this info to us. Agreed. It also helps us manage our expectations. Consider the two situations slightly simplified: 1. You are told a black box contains a golden ball. You pull from this box for days and all you see are white balls. Is it safe to believe that there is a golden ball in that box? You are frustrated and start to distrust the person controlling the box. 2. You are told a black box contains 1 golden ball and 10000 white balls. You pull from this box for days knowing you still haven't pulled enough balls. You are tired, but you knew it would be hard. DE has to make money and while I don't believe that this sort of manipulative tactic is the right one, I acknowledge it is a successful one. All I am asking is that they be transparent so we can know what we are getting into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogoframe Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 This thread is too good to be buried, have a bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagisawa Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 As someone who HAS dropped money on this game, I'd also like to see the chances for everything that can drop somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnatharsWrath Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 After spending about 7 hours doing t4-Defense missions trying to get loki systems (still dont have it) After 7 hours doing t1-survivals to get the chassis (also didnt get it) i can understand why people want to know the drop rates. cause all this time wasted doing boring missions to farm the keys then more boring missions to try and get the parts instead of enjoying the game can be taxing at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogoframe Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 There are many reasons why people want it, but people who have been here for longer than 8 months have a very, very good reason to be worried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBAROG Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Agreed. I don't see any reason not to reveal the drop rates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogoframe Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 (edited) That depends from which perspective you look at it. For players, there is no reason why they shouldnt AT THE VERY LEAST let dataminers do their thing, you know, like in every single successful game out there, WoW just to mention the biggest. From their perspective, it would make them accountable to what they claim, which is bad, because when it was so, twice they failed to deliver and it caused the one instance where DE gave free platinum to all players (except for newly created accounts). So it is not really about what they should or shouldnt do and the reasons behind it. Because before the community makes a stand and demand stop being taken for granted, the excuses will continue. "When I asked people in the industry, every one said: Of course not" - DE_Steve And this will continue. Mysterious "people in the industry" have more weight than their game's community (because obviously your competitors should have a bigger say in your course of actions than your customers). And that is not even bringing in the fact that, again, you can check drops for every major game in the market, and companies are not half as afraid of accountability as DE is. Edited June 18, 2014 by Dogoframe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainohCaptain Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Well, discovered a bunch of t1 capture keys on my key deck, cleared them. T2 cap key T2 cap key T1 def key T2 cap key Boar prime receiver Lex prime receiver Lex prime receiver Boar prime receiver Boar prime receiver T2 cap key T1 def key Bronco Prime Blueprint T1 def key Forma blueprint The t1 cap keys on t1 defense are hilarious though. All aboard the loop train? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogoframe Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 The data is out there, you just have to collect it. Then you can rage to that, instead. Collecting the data would be very nice, yes. That was exactly what the dataminers were doing, as a HUGE favor to all the community, before DE obfuscated the drop tables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagisawa Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I've been here, maybe a half year, Dogo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogoframe Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I've been here, maybe a half year, Dogo. Apologies if I made it sound like you shouldnt care much or worry about this issue if you werent playing Warframe when that comedy I like to call The Atomic Egg Drop Table Disaster happened, it really wasnt my intention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagisawa Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Apologies if I made it sound like you shouldnt care much or worry about this issue if you werent playing Warframe when that comedy I like to call The Atomic Egg Drop Table Disaster happened, it really wasnt my intention. Fair enough. I'd just like to point out that I started late U7 and have logged (according to Steam) over 600 hours in this game, so I think I have a good idea at just how frustrating not knowing, or being able to plan what will drop, how and where. (No intended snark, just saying I can relate.) I mean, take World of Warcraft, (before everyone goes batbuck wacky, continue reading) on most of the wiki's available it details the average drop rate of almost every singe toy, from trash white gear to the most epic of purple epics even to the orange legendaries. It allows each player to plan where they want to go to get whatever it is they want to get. Why is this not allowed in Warframe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogoframe Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Fair enough. I'd just like to point out that I started late U7 and have logged (according to Steam) over 600 hours in this game, so I think I have a good idea at just how frustrating not knowing, or being able to plan what will drop, how and where. (No intended snark, just saying I can relate.) I mean, take World of Warcraft, (before everyone goes batbuck wacky, continue reading) on most of the wiki's available it details the average drop rate of almost every singe toy, from trash white gear to the most epic of purple epics even to the orange legendaries. It allows each player to plan where they want to go to get whatever it is they want to get. Why is this not allowed in Warframe? It is not currently allowed in Warframe because misinformation is powerful. The drop system is advertised as being RNG, when in fact it works on fixed, weighted percentages. What was advertised as reverse engineering (which is illegal) is in fact datamining, a common practice, accepted by any company that doesnt fear accountability. And misinformation is particularly efficient with people who dont mind being taken for granted, which seems to be case with some defending the obfuscation of drop tables (a treatment which, I repeat, is not given to all data in Warframe, just drop tables). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiiat Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 They encrypted a lot more than the drop tables. The reason for this was because it was made apparent that people were managing to reverse engineer the game's code. It's really bad for business if people manage to reverse engineer the game's engine; it's tantamount to theft/piracy. DE responded by encrypting the game's data. that's interesting, since Battlefield isn't encrypted, and anyone is free to reverse engineer or decompile the game as they please (remember, these processes are not 100% reliable). no actions have been taken against it, and stats for everything have been copied from the programming itself. and you know what? it doesn't matter. there's nothing wrong with your players knowing the same things the Developer does - unless there's huge mistakes that are trying to be hidden. and if the game is encrypted to hide mistakes Digital Extremes is trying to ignore - why not... just fix them? if you're ashamed of part of your game to the point that you want to hide it, that says you've done something wrong, and whatever it is should be top priority. that's the only reasonable explanation for encrypting your game i can find. and it's a poor one at that. That being said, I would like DE to release the % chances, or at least have a way for the players to uncover the % chances (like having a codex entry for specific keys, and the entry would contain the % chances for certain drops; the more times you run that mission the more the %'s get revealed or something). this sounds acceptable, and it integrates more with the game, which is preferable. the Codex is there for a reason, let's actually... use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taranis49 Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 Only if they include the mission rewards and drop chances in there, because they actually said they were going to do that and never followed through. Because they won't be able to "accidentally" set rewards at a .67% drop chance like they did with forma and T3 keys. And the argument that people should be logging data for rewards is hilarious. A.) DE changes/adds to the rewards too often b.) I sincerely doubt there are enough reliable people to build up a proper sample size with accurate data each time DE changes it C.) We shouldn't need to do this and D.) DE actually said they would give this info to us. Yep. Hell, the entire sales pitch for the codex was that it was intended to basically be a replacement for datamining; that once we had it, we wouldn't need to datamine anymore because it'd provide all the information that we'd want about the drop tables by pulling it directly from the game in real time. It's yet again one of those things that's, at best, half-finished and apparently left to rot. As noted, it doesn't provide drop tables for missions (Void or otherwise), despite the fact we were told it'd have that functionality by Update 11 "at the latest". And it's been pretty well demonstrated that we need that information; nevermind the 0.67% drop chances on stuff, there's been times where items are completely absent from the drop tables, i.e. they just didn't have a "low" drop chance, they had no drop chance. Most recently it was Cleaving Whirlwind being absent from the Ancient Disruptor's table, despite it being listed as a drop in the codex (so what little information the codex does give us isn't even guaranteed to be accurate). Likewise, as said, the idea we should be logging drops is an old suggestion and it just ain't practical. In the case of the Void, the tables change atleast once an update (if not sooner), which renders the effort moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlyBoots Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 (edited) props to dogoframe and doomfruit for providing details. Edited June 18, 2014 by SlyBoots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taranis49 Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 The t1 cap keys on t1 defense are hilarious though. All aboard the loop train? Key-ception. GRIND FOREVAH! >:( :-P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorinar Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 that's interesting, since Battlefield isn't encrypted, and anyone is free to reverse engineer or decompile the game as they please (remember, these processes are not 100% reliable). no actions have been taken against it, and stats for everything have been copied from the programming itself. and you know what? it doesn't matter. there's nothing wrong with your players knowing the same things the Developer does - unless there's huge mistakes that are trying to be hidden. and if the game is encrypted to hide mistakes Digital Extremes is trying to ignore - why not... just fix them? if you're ashamed of part of your game to the point that you want to hide it, that says you've done something wrong, and whatever it is should be top priority. that's the only reasonable explanation for encrypting your game i can find. and it's a poor one at that. The source code for Half-Life 2 was stolen months prior to its release and it still went on to make millions. But I don't think the worry is that someone might release an unrestricted version of Warframe to compete with the legit one, or at least, they shouldn't be. They may be worried that someone might write an exploit based on the reverse engineered code that can somehow corrupt game data or do other nasty shtuff. Fine. Could they not still leave the drop tables unencrypted? Or at the very least, do what I suggest and release the probabilities to the public. If they did so in the codex, I would be fine with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WanderoftheAether Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 that's interesting, since Battlefield isn't encrypted, and anyone is free to reverse engineer or decompile the game as they please (remember, these processes are not 100% reliable). no actions have been taken against it, and stats for everything have been copied from the programming itself. and you know what? it doesn't matter. there's nothing wrong with your players knowing the same things the Developer does - unless there's huge mistakes that are trying to be hidden. and if the game is encrypted to hide mistakes Digital Extremes is trying to ignore - why not... just fix them? if you're ashamed of part of your game to the point that you want to hide it, that says you've done something wrong, and whatever it is should be top priority. that's the only reasonable explanation for encrypting your game i can find. and it's a poor one at that. this sounds acceptable, and it integrates more with the game, which is preferable. the Codex is there for a reason, let's actually... use it. uh. . . uh . . . ow. The truth hurts doesn't it, DE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagisawa Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Would be nice if the Codex fills this niche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkDeadeye Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) Ok, well by "game" I was thinking of MMOs and MMO-ish games, where RNG has a "special" role in player e-peen-joyable experience. And was that google worksheet released by the developers? World Of Warcraft is and has always been open about them. Also it's 2014. I don't need to reverse engineer your code. If I had that know-how I'd just fire up UDK. Edited June 20, 2014 by DirkDeadeye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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