Rabid Fanboi-Ism Vs Constructive Critical Analysis, Discuss...

[CY13ERPUNK]

ok all joking aside, i hope the title doesn't rustle anyone's jimmies

 

but recently I posted a couple topics and received quite a few comments that said things like I was "insulting" the game (Warframe) or the kind of "if you don't like it then gtfo" kinda stuff (im not quoting exactly, just the gist, general sense)

 

of course all the responses were not like this, but enough of them were that just got me thinking today, and honestly, this is really nothing new, I've just never written about it before (someone else may have, if so I don't remember) [special thanks to DiabolusUrsus for his intelligent and thoughful responses]

 

what I really would like to ask/discuss is : is there any value in the 'brand-loyalty' to the game/DE? and/or does this kind of thought process help or hurt our community?

 

I myself am of the opinion that we need more constructive critical responses in our forums and less negativity, I think that deeply critical analysis of issues that pertain to warframe and the playerbase can really help the game for the better in the long run, I don't necessarily think that all ideas are equal or that all criticism is good, but definitely I think it should be encouraged and "fanboi-ism" for a lack of a better word IMHO isnt helping that (in a similar vein, i think it is very relevant to compare Warframe to other titles in similar genres to it, pros and cons, and that sort of thing, i have no desire for Warframe to be "everything" however)

 

but I would like to hear what the rest of the community thinks, I know ppl are often resistant to change, but as long as DE is making changes that are for the best, considering the long-term health of the game, im all for that

 

sry if i ramble a bit here

 

[PsychedelicSnake]

It's possible to have faith in a product and a developer while still being critical and constructive. It is also possible to have no faith in a product or a developer and still remain respectful about feedback. We shouldn't generalize an entire side of a camp.

 

A bit off-topic to be sure, but I felt it needed to be said.

[Trouvo]

I think the best thing is for there to be a mix of both, because the fanboyism helps support the part of the balancing that results from the you cant please everyone notion and the constructive criticism of every nitpicking detail is the opposite side of that spectrum

 

I think if an idea or thought is fully fleshed out, logical and reasonable to be implemented or at the very least considered to be implemented then it is the good medium we need, but its just not what we get because its the internet, so the balance is needed in its place.

[SmokinDevil]

Damn...he just destroyed the topic and closed the thread with one short post...

[Valiant]

I could probably come up with a better response but I felt I agreed with you, however, when I thought on the point you made about making deep critical analysis' I came to a conclusion - there isn't any point in doing deep analysis.

 

Don't throw this as off as being negative but we've had countless topics in multiple sections with opening posts of deep analysis and summaries, followed by replies with such. We're sitting here doing evaluations yet in all honesty, it doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere and if it is, it's going at an exceptionally slow speed. We're doing our part evaluating yet the other end - DE - aren't responding in kind via replies, content and so forth. The typical trend doesn't seem to be changing despite multiple attempts to change it. So therefore, doing such deep analysis and so forth isn't worth it. I don't mean hold off on it completely but I've seen some exceptionally long posts with good points and content etc. which haven't really gone anywhere or haven't seemed to have been taken on board.

 

I may have gone off on tangent now that I think about it.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Naith

[VKhaun]

Started to reply.

 

Checked profile for previous 'constructive' topics first.

 

"Why Is The Geometry In Basically All Of The Game So Horrible?"

"Why Does Destiny's "alhpa" Look More Feature Complete Than Warframe's..."

 

Nope...

 

Nope nope nope...

[Dualstar]

but recently I posted a couple topics and received quite a few comments that said things like I was "insulting" the game (Warframe) or the kind of "if you don't like it then gtfo" kinda stuff (im not quoting exactly, just the gist, general sense)

You mean like that WF vs Destiny thread, which had no buisness being in General Discussion and was nothing more than a fruitless waste of server memory?

 

Speaking of which, this thread also belongs in off topic. And is also a fruitless waste of server memory.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Dualstar

[Acos]

As a hypothetical:

You are a grand-master chef, and your sweet old grandmother who has raised you since your childhood has made you a meal. It tastes terrible, and you resolve to help her with her recipe. The way you talk to your sweet old grandmother who has raised you since your childhood is generally how you want to compose yourself when talking to any other human being; like they are a human being with the assumption that they care about you.

Constructive Criticism demands that you compose yourself as an adult. This constant "The developers don't even care about us anymore! How dare they be so incompetent!" sounds like nothing more than an entitled child, who has reinforced his decision to be an annoying brat with a money purchase. As though going to McDonalds and ordering food gives you some special right to throw fries at the cashier because he forgot to give you ketchup. 

So yeah, metaphors. 

[CY13ERPUNK]

Started to reply.

 

Checked profile for previous 'constructive' topics first.

 

"Why Is The Geometry In Basically All Of The Game So Horrible?"

"Why Does Destiny's "alhpa" Look More Feature Complete Than Warframe's..."

 

Nope...

 

Nope nope nope...

 

i think i see what you are implying, but i honestly have no intention of "baiting" anyone into anything here except a civil discussion about the topics proposed

 

i get that some ppl disagree, that's the point of a discussion, different sides can voice differing opinions, and ideally we can all learn something from the experience (sure it doesn't always work out that way, but there is no harm in trying)

[deth_monkey69]

Seriously, suggesting changes for the better shouldn't be met with "then play something else 1!!!! 111!!".

[CY13ERPUNK]

I could probably come up with a better response but I felt I agreed with you, however, when I thought on the point you made about making deep critical analysis' I came to a conclusion - there isn't any point in doing deep analysis.

 

Don't throw this as off as being negative but we've had countless topics in multiple sections with opening posts of deep analysis and summaries, followed by replies with such. We're sitting here doing evaluations yet in all honesty, it doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere and if it is, it's going at an exceptionally slow speed. We're doing our part evaluating yet the other end - DE - aren't responding in kind via replies, content and so forth. The typical trend doesn't seem to be changing despite multiple attempts to change it. So therefore, doing such deep analysis and so forth isn't worth it. I don't mean hold off on it completely but I've seen some exceptionally long posts with good points and content etc. which haven't really gone anywhere or haven't seemed to have been taken on board.

 

I may have gone off on tangent now that I think about it.

 

while I definitely see DE as a hard working company, and I'll be the first to give them kudos for regular updates and working late/wknds/etc, at the same time I do wish that we got more DEv workshop type feedback, and/or more explanations about the whats/hows/whys when changes are implemented (use the Frost Avalanche bug/change as an example)

[immolator1001]

You forgot the third (and most prevalent) option. Unhelpful rants.

[VKhaun]

i think i see what you are implying, but i honestly have no intention of "baiting" anyone into anything here except a civil discussion about the topics proposed

 

i get that some ppl disagree, that's the point of a discussion, different sides can voice differing opinions, and ideally we can all learn something from the experience (sure it doesn't always work out that way, but there is no harm in trying)

 

All you're stuff is all horrible and other posters are better.

I'm here to have a constructive and civil discussion.

[Joyfulmama]

Of course you need brand loyalty. It is brand loyalty that makes people put up with the game when DE throws out sh*t at us. Then, during these times of sh*t, the people with brand loyalty stay true to the game even if the sh*t stays long, and help to improve the game with feedback and suggestions, and ultimately help DE to throw out awesome parties and presents to us gamers.

[Zaresin]

What is horrible and what is good feedback ends up being more an opinion.  A lot of us that have been playing awhile and remember Colstro or Nugget and have seen their threads before they left or were forum banned know that a lot of the things they said had/have merit.  The way things are said in a post can be easily misconstrued and when you talk critical of something, people go on the defensive.  I myself used to think poorly of players like Colstro and Nugget and now that I'm to the point in the game where there isn't much for me to do anymore I am seeing their points and actually call Colstro a friend.  Doesnt' mean we agree on everything as we have regular debates about the game's progress and DE's progress over raidcall all the time.  I still have faith in DE's vision but doesn't mean I will white knight something that I don't agree with just for the sake of white knighting.  I would say that for a majority of posts that pop up about Warframe in the general discussion section are posts that probably should fall under the feedback section rather than general discussion.  I think all feedback is good feedback, just a lot of it could be said better.  Nugget was amazing at this and I miss his posts as like I said, as I have played more and gotten as far as I can go (only 6 more weapons to rank up) I am seeing their points.  Many new players will not have that experience and i honestly think that DE needs to change some things not only on the forums but how they do things to ensure a quality experience inside and out of the game.  Especially as DE has quite a few resources available to them free that they can utilize.  Crowd sourcing is an amazing thing.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Zaresin

[KnorrSoup]

A lot of the time I think it doesn't come down to what people are saying, but more how they say them. For instance, a "suggestion" is not seen nearly as harshly as a "complaint" or "rant", and that's where I think a lot of the "L2P, don't like it don't play it" comments come from. Obviously people make those threads because they want to see the game improve, though a lot of the time to the passing observer it looks like a bait thread.

[Zaresin]

You forgot the third (and most prevalent) option. Unhelpful rants.

 

I personally think unhelpful rants need to be shut down by the mods immediately and sent to Drew, Megan, or Rebecca to be evaluated on if they have merit and either contact the thread creator to either rewrite the original thread to be more constructive and less demeaning or trash the thread.  I think a lot of the things posted can be said better in regards to feedback but a lot of thread creators get caught up in their frustration of either players or warframe in general.  

[CY13ERPUNK]

What is horrible and what is good feedback ends up being more an opinion.  A lot of us that have been playing awhile and remember Colstro or Nugget and have seen their threads before they left or were forum banned know that a lot of the things they said had/have merit.  The way things are said in a post can be easily misconstrued and when you talk critical of something, people go on the defensive.  I myself used to think poorly of players like Colstro and Nugget and now that I'm to the point in the game where there isn't much for me to do anymore I am seeing their points and actually call Colstro a friend.  Doesnt' mean we agree on everything as we have regular debates about the game's progress and DE's progress over raidcall all the time.  I still have faith in DE's vision but doesn't mean I will white knight something that I don't agree with just for the sake of white knighting.  I would say that for a majority of posts that pop up about Warframe in the general discussion section are posts that probably should fall under the feedback section rather than general discussion.  I think all feedback is good feedback, just a lot of it could be said better.  Nugget was amazing at this and I miss his posts as like I said, as I have played more and gotten as far as I can go (only 6 more weapons to rank up) I am seeing their points.  Many new players will not have that experience and i honestly think that DE needs to change some things not only on the forums but how they do things to ensure a quality experience inside and out of the game.  Especially as DE has quite a few resources available to them free that they can utilize.  Crowd sourcing is an amazing thing.

 

thank you for this response, i feel like i can relate to a lot of what you said/wrote =]

 

this is exactly the kind of discussion i was hoping to generate in this thread

Edited June 17, 2014 by CY13ERPUNK

[Zaresin]

thank you for this response, i feel like i can relate to a lot of what you said/wrote =]

 

this is exactly the kind of discussion i was hoping to generate in this thread

 

It is all about the tone you set in the opening post of a thread on how people will interact with you throughout your post.  Yes you will run into forum trolls and I personally wish the mods were on more and could catch it more as those posts are not helpful but that is the thing about life in general, you have to take the good with the bad.  

[Mokkania]

It's possible to have faith in a product and a developer while still being critical and constructive. It is also possible to have no faith in a product or a developer and still remain respectful about feedback. We shouldn't generalize an entire side of a camp.

 

A bit off-topic to be sure, but I felt it needed to be said.

No, it's exactly that, it's not about white knighting in general it's about people thinking a bit before posting or not, there are those who do and those who don't, and it goes for both of them.

the white knighting camp who doesn't think much is pretty easy to notice,

 

Constructive Criticism demands that you compose yourself as an adult. This constant "The developers don't even care about us anymore! How dare they be so incompetent!" sounds like nothing more than an entitled child, who has reinforced his decision to be an annoying brat with a money purchase. As though going to McDonalds and ordering food gives you some special right to throw fries at the cashier because he forgot to give you ketchup.

This is one exemple from the other side, the non white knight that lack constructiveness.

 

And it's usually better to just ignore these posts.

[DietEbolaCola]

Seriously, suggesting changes for the better shouldn't be met with "then play something else 1!!!! 111!!".

 

Perhaps if those changes for the better were offered instead of implied.. nope.. let's stick to straw man arguments..

[Sloan441]

Most of which gets posted here as "constructive criticism" turns out to be whining.

 

Hence the...dismissive reactions.

[Zarfilg]

I never did understand how people with no real world interest in a product (shares, company affiliation etc) develop such strong feelings and positions  about them. 

 

Nutbars.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Zarfilg

[CY13ERPUNK]

I never did understand how people with no real world interest in a product (shares, company affiliation etc) develop such strong feelings and positions  about them. 

 

Nutbars.

 

it does remind me a lot about modern politics (or maybe i should just say propaganda, whatevs), but yes ive always scratched my head as well

[LunchBoxKilla]

Fanboy is what is stopping proper "Tweaks" I say tweaks not nerfs. 

 

A lot of weapons and frames need that badly tweak and DE needs to stop the power creep before a release of new stuff.