HurricaneBones Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) Proposal to END the RNG and boredom : from drop table to Quest Reward I started my reflection from this following points : RNG and GRIND are the worst thing ever. It’s repetitive and leads to freakin’ BOREDOM New rewards needs to be obtain after several hours of playing to give content for players. Paying for new content must stay attractive New player ship will be quest-friendly Token system is not an option Use everything you can already in the game I want to live in warframe universe when i play, i want lore, i want stories My idea : Flush down the Grindwall in the toilets and introduce a Quest system : Quest is made of X missions of Y types to construct a mini-story. A quest can be started by a formed squad, and progression will be saved between each mission The quest can be continued with a different squad, pick-up system enabled as for a classic mission. A short briefing text with lotus reading between each mission will give life to the story. (Imagine something like briefings in starcraft, or story mode screens in soulcalibur for something more minimalist) Each mission will be judged on several points (speed, kills, stealth, damage received, damage given, etc.). The score is based on the team performance and is the same for the all team. The score of each mission is saved for each player and added in the quest pool score. At the end of the quest, depending on the quest score you have, you will be rewarded. A perfect score give you the rarest reward (aka loki prime helmet), a middle score gives you medium reward, bad score -> bad reward. There is huge gap between good score and perfect score. Quest can be start over, erasing the pool score . Each quest gives you specific rewards. Quest A gives you loki and bo parts, Quest B gives you Boltor and Ember for example. Option : “You’re not a hardcoregamer, but a long runner” : At the end of a quest you didn’t succeed well, instead of receiving a bad reward you already have, you can renounce to your reward and start again. This time the quest pool score will be slightly filled, helping you to get closer to the perfect score next time. Repeat X times until you reach the perfect score. When you repeat the quest, the mission varies, and you’re feeling that you’re getting closer to the reward, you do not have the feeling that you’re wasting your time anymore. Variant : “Let’s vary your playstyle” : Instead of 1 score per mission, you have several scores sections based on the previous points (speed, stealth, kills, etc.) The system is the same but the rewards are unlocked depending on the score you have in each section Exemple : the loki helmet is given when you get a perfect score in stealth for the entire quest, the chassis is given when you get a perfect score in kills for the entire quest, etc. This variant will incitate the player to vary his playstyle to get all the rewards or to trade with players who have other playstyles. Dojo quest : Instead of getting dojo weapon by waiting 3 days doing nothing, dojo weapons are obtained by crafting dojo quest. Once the dojo quest is open, it works the same than normal quest, except there is no “pick up” system, a member of the clan have to invite non clan members to allow them to participate, as a void key system. With this kind of system : the player is not doing the freakin’ same mission over and over, till boredom tear us apart (joy division inside). the game motivates the gamer to play his best the game rewards hardcoregamers and patient gamers it’s still easier to trade to get the missing parts the fastest way will still be plat / prime access The spirit of this idea is to stop the love/hate relation I have with the game when I see the new content (love) and the grindwall to climb to get it (hate) Example of quest : "we're up all night to get loki" Lotus propose you to find out what's behind recent grineer activities Mission 1/ let's gather some intels in a grineer ship -> Spy/rescue/capture/survival Mission 2/ oh there's orokin tech, grineer mustn't access to it ! stop them now ! -> exterminate/Sabotage/Deception Mission 3/ ok let's go deeper for more info -> Spy/rescue/capture/survival Mission 4/ it's a trap ! -> Defense/interception/mobile defense Mission 5/ Arrrr Sargas already got the key to get loki you must defeat him ! -> assassination End of the quest -> Huge success ! -> Each time you start the quest again you have random missions compatible with the storyline : for example 1st time on loki quest you get : 1/ Spy 2/ exterminate 3/ rescue 4/ mobile defense 5/ assassination 2nd time on loki quest you get : 1/ capture 2/ Sabotage 3/ rescue 4/ interception 5/ assassination Edited June 17, 2014 by HurricaneBones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nijuroku Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 WARPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-FrostByte- Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 WARPG class system???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaman1994 Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 This sounds like either a more tedious version of what we have now, or an incredibly easy version that will cause most of the player base to collect everything and stop playing very quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitioner Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Quests... I can so see the support team getting more work than ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notionphil Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I started my reflection from this following points : RNG and GRIND are the worst thing ever. It’s repetitive and leads to freakin’ BOREDOM New rewards needs to be obtain after several hours of playing to give content for players. Paying for new content must stay attractive New player ship will be quest-friendly Token system is not an option Use everything you can already in the game I want to live in warframe universe when i play, i want lore, i want stories I like the idea alot OP, especially using the ship as a base of operations. Shares many ideals with WF's granddaddy(if i do say so myself) quest concept Cells - This Is Warframes Endgame. Hopefully Proxy Wars will take on some format similar to this...we'll see :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostosti Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) if you get all content from the update within a few hours after the update. What will we then do from the next day until the next update ? Although i do not agree on all of your points, this idea will most likely get rid of rushers, Since rushing wil result in a bad score. Edited June 17, 2014 by Frostosti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archistopheles Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Rng cannot be removed once it has latched on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneBones Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 This sounds like either a more tedious version of what we have now, or an incredibly easy version that will cause most of the player base to collect everything and stop playing very quickly. "There is huge gap between good score and perfect score."Put the perfect gap to the infinity and beyond and nobody will be able to reach the perfect score in one try. Put the perfect gap very high and only best hardcoregamer will be able to reach the perfect score in one try. -> Then DE balance to the optimal gap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneBones Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) if you get all content from the update within a few hours after the update. What will we then do from the next day until the next update ? Although i do not agree on all of your points, this idea will most likely get rid of rushers, Since rushing wil result in a bad score. If you use the variant system, with a speed score, a kill score, a stealth score ; every playstyle is rewarded even rusher will have their rewards. And i will add this : What are doing players paying for prime access ? they wait for the next update ? No they still enjoy the game What are doing players tired of grindwalls ? they wait for the next update ? Damn' they actually wait for the next update to see drop table to be normal again. Do you see the breach in your reasonning ? Edited June 17, 2014 by HurricaneBones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneBones Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 Quests... I can so see the support team getting more work than ever. I brought an example : Example of quest : "we're up all night to get loki" Lotus propose you to find out what's behind recent grineer activities Mission 1/ let's gather some intels in a grineer ship -> Spy/rescue/capture/survival Mission 2/ oh there's orokin tech, grineer mustn't access to it ! stop them now ! -> exterminate/Sabotage/Deception Mission 3/ ok let's go deeper for more info -> Spy/rescue/capture/survival Mission 4/ it's a trap ! -> Defense/interception/mobile defense Mission 5/ Arrrr Sargas already got the key to get loki you must defeat him ! -> assassination End of the quest -> Huge success ! -> Each time you start the quest again you have random missions compatible with the storyline : for example 1st time on loki quest you get : 1/ Spy 2/ exterminate 3/ rescue 4/ mobile defense 5/ assassination 2nd time on loki quest you get : 1/ capture 2/ Sabotage 3/ rescue 4/ interception 5/ assassination this kind of story will not require "that" mountain of work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgedemon Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 i was gonna give my opinion but someone wrote it for me. This sounds like either a more tedious version of what we have now, or an incredibly easy version that will cause most of the player base to collect everything and stop playing very quickly. also the people who wants those weapons "NOW" support the game (they gotta be the main source of income or close) so we can play free (for the most part at least), so they can have their guns faster, that doesn't bother me. by the way you haven't considered the casual players which invests less time on the game and as such benefits more from a chance each few minutes instead of a forced X hours of gameplay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaenur Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I like the idea alot OP, especially using the ship as a base of operations. Shares many ideals with WF's granddaddy(if i do say so myself) quest concept Cells - This Is Warframes Endgame. Hopefully Proxy Wars will take on some format similar to this...we'll see :) I saw echoes of Cells in this too. Also, Casardis's Debriefings thread and my spin-off. I have to say, though, just from my own limited experience writing examples in those two threads, this is going to be pretty time-intensive to come up with a coherent story structure for each mission. On the flip side, once it's written a lot of it is surprisingly reusable, and if one amateur could whip up those examples in five hours or so, a team with at least some knowledge of where the game's going to go from here could probably work it out surprisingly quickly. Anyway, I can see this happening early on as a way to give players "essential" mods (+damage, elements) and some explanation of how to use them on their first pass through a given planet, and depending on how planets are presented in the new Ship system your idea of free-flowing, procedurally linked assignments could really do an excellent job of giving each planet a story. Then, you could return to that planet in the future for more quests, in order to get fresh loot and (more importantly in my opinion) at least some sort of narrative to keep you engaged. I greatly appreciate the thought you put into the "quest pool," the progress bar for bonus objective success and thus reward payout. It bypasses the biggest problem a lot of people had with the Specters of Liberty event, where if we wanted anything but Cosmic or...was it Phase blueprints? Anyway, we'd have to deliberately underperform to get what we wanted. This becomes the exact opposite, and immediately provides rewards for "unorthodox" gameplay approaches like stealth and rarely-seen mission types like Spy and Interception, something people have been brainstorming practically since launch with little success. Great idea! I think I'd rather see this added to the existing game instead of implemented as a replacement, though, for several reasons. Although I kind of disagree with them on principle, I can see where a lot of the negative responses are coming from, especially ones that talk about time commitment. Of course, considering how long you can spend in a Tower Survival or Defense mission with no luck, I don't think it holds water, but still - if players want to roll the dice, let them, or if they want to push their way through a short story and try different playstyles to lock in very specific reward choices, let them do that too. There's no reason the mechanics have to be mutually exclusive, after all. Also, let's be honest here, proposing additions is always easier than complete replacements, especially of something as fundamental as Warframe's RNG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneBones Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneBones Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) i was gonna give my opinion but someone wrote it for me. also the people who wants those weapons "NOW" support the game (they gotta be the main source of income or close) so we can play free (for the most part at least), so they can have their guns faster, that doesn't bother me. by the way you haven't considered the casual players which invests less time on the game and as such benefits more from a chance each few minutes instead of a forced X hours of gameplay I know the casuals are not well served by this proposal, but do you truely think they are considered with the actual RNGRINDsystem ? And i think the casuals can't be served with DE monetisation system Edited June 17, 2014 by HurricaneBones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiabolusUrsus Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 This proposal removes RNG from most of the loot system without completely eliminating the grindwall that makes paid access to content attractive. It also gives skilled players the opportunity to bypass that grindwall more efficiently. At the same time, it mandates the introduction of actual content lore and concrete story lines, which will breathe new life into a potentially vibrant and engrossing game universe. It gives players a reason to mix up the types of missions they play. It encourages teamwork without prohibiting the success of solo-players. It gives Warfarm a soul. How can any of you not like this idea? It's brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneBones Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 Plot twist : you need a special key to access to quests, and the key is hidden behind RNG grindwall ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__Kanade__ Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 (edited) Reducing RNG is a must, but a quest system that we see in anyother game would be just plain laziness even if it adds lore, I'd rather see RNG gone and more Lore put in, but not with a quest system. Lore and RNG can easily bypass that need. If DE wants to try fresh new ideas for Warframe, then the Quest System has already been considered and tossed out the window. It has that potential for something new, not something tried, proven, done, and overkilled. The Raid system has also been suggested a few times but was shunted quickly due to the lore surrounding the game. Then again, look at Dark Sectors and what's happening with that. Edited June 18, 2014 by __Kanade__ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archistopheles Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 In the first graph "Finally getting new toy" should be exactly the same value as your second graph's "Playing with new toy." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade343 Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 (edited) Very good idea you got there, HurricaneBones, but I would still place a small token system just as a fallback if stuff happens (because some players will get frustrated at true challenge and give up. I do understand that this system is meant for players to strive to improve themselves to obtain the Prime parts, but there are some players that will be frustrated [i do not know the reason why, but it happens every now and then] due to the constant mediocre grade they get from the missions, and thus the constant reward item, making them feel the game is 'punishing' them. We could have a few tokens as a bad-middle reward just so that these players will think, "At least I got something good" [not that I would really like that, but I try my best to cater to everyone]). Edited June 18, 2014 by Renegade343 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notlamprey Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 This idea reminds me of the spirit behind the original Cells concept, and I really think it deserves to be given a thorough exploration in playable content. If DE has any "drastic overhaul" juice left in the tank, this kind of quest system is where the effort should be going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade343 Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 HurricaneBones, Do you mind if I link your thread to my thread to spread your idea out more? Renegade343 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKRookieAndrew Posted June 18, 2014 Share Posted June 18, 2014 I really like this idea. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneBones Posted June 18, 2014 Author Share Posted June 18, 2014 It's a free for all idea ! go for it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneBones Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 My question for DEVSTREAM : DE, can you explain what the proxy wars are going to look like ? i hope like this quest proposal ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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