Enemy Density Is Too Damn High.

[Venerous]

As the thread title suggests, I feel that enemy density is just too damn high (as Jimmy McMillan would say). Extermination missions are fine because there are x amount of enemies on a map and they don't just crawl out of holes on all sides of you in groups of 8-10, but on any mission where enemies just spawn in (read: most of them), things seem way underbalanced.

 

This is especially punishing on say, mobile defense missions, where you reach your objective, plug in, and within 20 seconds are surrounded by 30 enemies, or on missions where alarms literally spawn enemies faster than you can kill them to go shut off the 12th alarm that's been triggered this mission by an enemy you didn't even see approach an alarm console, probably in another room entirely. 

 

I think it's a problem of the game being balanced ideally for 4 players, so that anyone playing with three faces a hefty challenge and anyone playing with one or two can just feel free to go drown themselves in the bathtub now. If that is the issue, why not just have spawns / spawn times scale with number of players? And something really needs to be done about the "alarm" system. It's a good idea really, gives an incentive for players to prioritize enemies that are specifically going for alarm consoles, But I've gone through entire missions where there's pretty much just always an alarm on, despite the fact that I'm constantly disabling them like a game of "stand there and take bullets while you try to hack the console so you can take less bullets for a few seconds" whack-a-mole. 

 

Maybe institute a timer (IE: an alarm can only be triggered every so many minutes), or just make it so there's only one alarm in any given room and enemies can't trigger an alarm in a room a player isn't currently occupying. This maintains the incentive to shoot the guys going for the alarm without alarms just going off constantly because a dude halfway across the ship got a telegram from his grandmother that you were coming and just decided to play it safe and hit the red button then. Another viable option would be to make it so each alarm could only summon so many enemies before the reserves in that part of the ship were empty. 

 

If someone really badly wants to play against wave after wave of infinitely spawning enemies there are endless defense and survival modes to keep them occupied (which also seem to suffer from chronic overcrowding in my opinion but there you go). 

[Dalu__Ka]

I thought killing enemies was the fun part?

[Venerous]

Sure, but the only one getting killed in a 1v30 is the player, whether through constant streams of precision fire from the 30 enemies attacking at once from front, back, both sides, up and down, or from attrition when the ammo runs out and it's either try and dance through the bullet rain and go stab somebody or just abort the mission and go to spacehop for some spacecakes instead. 

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

The issue is that enemies do spawn in fewer numbers for less players already. I see no issue with how many enemies spawn, of ten times in survival there are too few. Maybe try upgrading your mods and tactics? :P I don't know, I just don't see an issue.

Edited June 18, 2014 by (PS4)IIIDevoidIII

[Lost_Cartographer]

I'm begging for swarms of enemies in survival, less in defense and mobile defense, and a "large platoon" of 30-40 guys in an exterminate is so weak it takes longer to run through the level as Loki than to kill them all, and I've ran a few exterminates that were literally entry room > a room full of guys > extraction room.  When an exterminate provides so few targets the mission is over in a mere three tiles, the numbers are far too low. 100-200 should be the norm.

[-skimmer-]

Wait, are you implying that you are actually failing missions? I mean enemies in this game were always way too easy to beat, both at lvl 1 and engame content. I would for instance prefer much harder enemies, maybe to the point where stealth would be a viable option over the standard run and gun tactics. Most people doesnt even begin to consider that they might fail the mission when they start one because it practically never happens.

Edited June 20, 2014 by -skimmer-

[Hexagoros]

The OP can't be serious...

[Astrotrap]

The trouble is, when you're starting out with WEAKSAUCE EQUIPMENT, the enemies are really nasty. Personally, I had some trouble with a lot of early Mercury missions.

 

And now I'm all trolling through level 30 plus missions and one-shotting everything.

 

SO YEAH I GUESS BALANCE IS A BIT OFF YOU MIGHT SAY

[Sevnir]

As the thread title suggests, I feel that enemy density is just too damn high (as Jimmy McMillan would say). Extermination missions are fine because there are x amount of enemies on a map and they don't just crawl out of holes on all sides of you in groups of 8-10, but on any mission where enemies just spawn in (read: most of them), things seem way underbalanced.

 

... a dude halfway across the ship got a telegram from his grandmother that you were coming and just decided to play it safe and hit the red button then...

 

A dude halfway across the ship might get info from the dude you've just shot and is making his last dying breath since if they can travel space, I believe they also discovered radio technology :P

 

I disagree in general. I'd say in most cases the difficulty is insufficient (and I didn't get any premium currency to get some extra stuff). Especially when it comes to quantity on non survival/defense missions. 

 

Then again... I think it all comes down to mods and equipment, perhaps there should be some mild difficulty auto adjustments to the mission based on the conclave rating as well as the difference between the highest and the lowest CR in your squad. 

Edited June 21, 2014 by Sevnir

[Tatersail]

its one of the issues with 72 ammo snipers.

40 mobs attack a point every 10 seconds...

 

I would love to see, missions with 10x less enemies that are 20x harder to kill.

 

 

this would go a long way to making warframe 1 skills better, and stop some of the Nova QQ that happens in packed rooms.

[Shousa]

Constant spawning stream is just so illogical to me that i think developers dropped any strategic of enemy placement at all. As of now enemies just spawn and spawn with a percentage of allocation to unit spawning rate.

 

What they should do is that make it so that exterminate missions contain stronger units, but spy, rescue, sabotage, capture missions also is spawned with set number of enemies so it is possible to make with enemy clearance by stealth, spawn enemies by waves on alarms, if alarm is pressed a wave of 100 or 50 is spawned or queed for spawn at set time intervals, but not a constant spawning at every possible dark corner out of tenno sight, and every next  wave is stronger and not just a bit stronger but way way stronger but keep xp from them same and not escalating, so keep incentive to finish the objective as fast and steathilty possible to and kill every enemy as fast possible with best powers and weapons at hand.

 

As of now it is in best interest to keep alarm on for group to keep that cannon fodder comin.

[Bennandri]

its one of the issues with 72 ammo snipers.

40 mobs attack a point every 10 seconds...

 

I would love to see, missions with 10x less enemies that are 20x harder to kill.

 

 

this would go a long way to making warframe 1 skills better, and stop some of the Nova QQ that happens in packed rooms.

 

Wait, are you implying that you are actually failing missions? I mean enemies in this game were always way too easy to beat, both at lvl 1 and engame content. I would for instance prefer much harder enemies, maybe to the point where stealth would be a viable option over the standard run and gun tactics. Most people doesnt even begin to consider that they might fail the mission when they start one because it practically never happens.

 

I don't think making enemies stronger is going to solve the problem. If that's all that happens, we'll have the same problems that the endless survival and defense missions have now, where eventually you just hit a wall and are incapable of surviving because you either can't do enough damage, or the enemies are so powerful that no one can stand up to them for more than a few seconds.

 

What we need is more enemy variety, enemies that interact with each other, the environment, and the players in different ways than what we have now. Ideally, this would promote different styles of gameplay, or at least some alternative to the "run as fast as you can, get your damage numbers higher than the enemies' numbers" method.

 

I don't have anything against the idea of stealth against strong enemies, it's just that with stealth in the state it's in right now, it's not an effective or attractive option.

[ThePresident777]

I strongly disagree, enemy density is not too high at all in my opinion.  I enjoy blowing up and gunning down massive hordes.  I find it highly engaging.

[Muffle]

Enemy density is not high enough in some maps. Anyone else recall running through entire empty rooms just to get to the goal, complete the goal, then run through entire empty rooms to get to extraction? And people wonder why "rushing" is a thing. Well if there's no guys to kill, why should we stay in the room?

[Cylindrical_Meower]

Enemy density.... that's why there's punch through...

[Wrathinside]

This is especially punishing on say, mobile defense missions, where you reach your objective, plug in, and within 20 seconds are surrounded by 30 enemies, or on missions where alarms literally spawn enemies faster than you can kill them to go shut off the 12th alarm that's been triggered this mission by an enemy you didn't even see approach an alarm console, probably in another room entirely. 

 

I think it's a problem of the game being balanced ideally for 4 players, so that anyone playing with three faces a hefty challenge and anyone playing with one or two can just feel free to go drown themselves in the bathtub now. If that is the issue, why not just have spawns / spawn times scale with number of players? And something really needs to be done about the "alarm" system. It's a good idea really, gives an incentive for players to prioritize enemies that are specifically going for alarm consoles, But I've gone through entire missions where there's pretty much just always an alarm on, despite the fact that I'm constantly disabling them like a game of "stand there and take bullets while you try to hack the console so you can take less bullets for a few seconds" whack-a-mole. 

 

Maybe institute a timer (IE: an alarm can only be triggered every so many minutes), or just make it so there's only one alarm in any given room and enemies can't trigger an alarm in a room a player isn't currently occupying. This maintains the incentive to shoot the guys going for the alarm without alarms just going off constantly because a dude halfway across the ship got a telegram from his grandmother that you were coming and just decided to play it safe and hit the red button then. Another viable option would be to make it so each alarm could only summon so many enemies before the reserves in that part of the ship were empty. 

 

If someone really badly wants to play against wave after wave of infinitely spawning enemies there are endless defense and survival modes to keep them occupied (which also seem to suffer from chronic overcrowding in my opinion but there you go). 

How to put it... MD was always the "intense" version of Defense. Defense is endless, but gapped by waves. MD is - you pop a terminal, you are on your own. Survival incorporates both, starting as easy as defense, but ending up harder than mobile defense.

As people have said - the game has much bigger balancing issues for warfarms and equipment. Novas, Stugs, Vaubans, Ogrises... you name it. If you can't 1-2 shot a target and are running out of ammo or getting surrounded like in a REAL shooter... You are playing the game wrong. Sorry, but that's not how it's intended. People said and I quote - the game is about butchering hordes of stupid AI targets with fancy weapons and cool graphics. That's it. It's not some tactical shooter. You don't use covers or prioritize. It's almost Serious Sam in space.

And if you are dying too fast to do much... I recommend researching your warfarm and considering more defensive loadout. Generally 300/300 is only good if you are solid with weapons\team. And 700/700+ is only good for endgame to soak the damage. Find a good medium and back it up by firepower. Most warfarms have dedicated abilities to deal with enemies, both offensive and defensive. Whether you disarm them or tentacle rape or link-reflect or even lay a carpet of roses, listening to dubstep - it's what should "natively" form your gameplay.

All this is said about soloing, a mental condition that I somewhat despise in a game that is made for coop with as easy coop as possible. Want to play solo hardcore? Go play B*rderl*nds 2. I'll listen then about getting overwhelmed. If you have nobody to play Warfarm with - either get some or learn to pub. Or quit. Co-op game won't change for singleplayer, especially when many players go for these exact massive-spawn missions to level their warframe or AoE weapon without imbeciles from pub spawncamping.

As for the alarms... the option to turn them off is rather... "new". And... "flavor". Stealth isn't a game mode. If you spend so much time turning off alarms... once again, you aren't playing it right. Because you turn off an alarm when you know that you can stealth, that you use silent damage, that sh*t happened and you want to cover up. You don't disable alarms, while routinely blowing everything to pieces and hoping that you'd get less spawns.

Theoretically recently I may have seen a "high" density on some Ceres 35-38 grineer alert survival, joining as a leeching nekros to desecrate for cells. No wonder that 10+ enemies coming at a time blew away my team and leveling-equipped Nekros. Next game - somebody brought Frost and... voila. Nobody gave a second sh*t. One ability turned disaster into doable mission. And there are dozens of such abilities. Hell, if I haven't stopped using Army or popped a pokemon - it would also work.

So there is always a solution, as long as it's within the range of ~100 levels. This solution is gear and teamplay. And if there is ever an issue above that for lifeless 2h+ survival farmers or wave 100+ defense campers... Who cares? Game is likewise not made for them in particular.

[BiancaRoughfin]

This is much like me.
http://youtu.be/O8C6YKHsgEw?t=16m26s

Edited July 3, 2014 by BiancaRoughfin