How Loki Should Be: My Thoughts.

[Ace4225]

Loki is my oldest and dearest frame. I started with him back in the days of early closed beta pre-update 6, and he was awesome then.

He's also experienced the biggest buffs and nerfs despite all the ups and downs with Rhino.

As much as I enjoy the "cloaky" build, it's OP and something needs to be done to get rid of it. It makes Loki too specific an d other builds aren't really that viable (except for maybe a ranged Radial Disarm build for high-end play, but that's gonna cost you a lot of defensive power.)

So....

I put some thoughts together, and I'm not sure if others have made similar suggestions, but I'm making my own post anyway just so that my specific thoughts are laid out (since my changes are rather specific.)

1. Decoy: It used to be spawned differently; its feet would be wherever the player's reticule was, making it possible to spawn it in high and hard-to-reach places to give Loki some nice mobility when combining it with Switch Teleport. Now, it spawns differently, and that mobility has been largely lost.

Decoy should spawn at a specific maximum range from Loki (not affected by Power Range mods) and could perhaps hover in the air instead of falling, such as how Molt works right now (or where Wormhole can take you).

2. Invisibility: I think we all know the issues with this power, so here's my solution:

Make Invisibility a non-duration-based power (like Iron Skin is currently.) Instead, make it so that Loki is permanently invisible UNTIL he makes an attack (a single attack) from any weapon (primary, secondary, melee), and give that weapon 2x / 3x / 4x damage (increased by Power Strength mods)

This allows Loki players to use Invisibility for defense, healing allies, or to make ONE strong attack. Since it is no longer affected by duration, it breaks the "cloaky" build. This also distinguishes Invisibility better from Smoke Screen.

Additionally:

Invisibility COULD have a mechanic where you remain invisible for a VERY short time AFTER making your attack, and that period could be extended by adding Power Duration mods.

EDIT (for clarification): Invisibility's energy cost should be changed to reflect this new method. I feel the best way to manage it would be with a slow energy drain [as others here have input and I agree with them.] This way energy cost would be proportional to the time spent while invisible, and it could not last forever, but it could be kept up, similarly to Nyx's Absorb, but perhaps with a slower drain since Invisibility is a 2nd skill and not a 4th.

3. Switch Teleport: For the most part, I think this power is good, but one way to potentially make it cooler would be:

When you first press "3", instead of instantly switch-teleporting yourself with the target, you "tag" the target as your teleport vector. The next time you press "3", regardless of where your target is (unless it moves beyond a certain range, which may/may not be affected by Power Range mods) you will THEN switch positions with your target. This enables the player to make better use of Switch Teleport, using it more strategically, and allowing for better team coordination, and if my version of Decoy is in place, it won't affect Loki's mobility combo with Decoy.

4. Radial Disarm: While it's good currently (especially at high-level play), it could be better, and here's one way how:

Make Radial Disarm work like an AOE "Overload" (Mass Effect tech power) - Radial Disarm causes the guns of all enemies in the radius to instantly overheat and explode, dealing damage to the enemies AND forcing them to resort to melee combat.

-Radial Disarm should deal Blast (or Heat) damage to ALL enemies (not just Infested Chargers.) Damage amount can still be affected by Power Strength, but the base level should be significantly lower than Rhino Stomp's (maybe 300-400 at max.) The above explanation could allow for a distinctive animation; the weapons take a couple seconds to "overheat" before they explode, building tension to the moment and giving the enemy one last quick use of their weapons before the power finishes its effect.

-beyond this point, Radial Disarm could work the way it does currently; having no duration.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Ace4225

[APBladeX]

You lost me at the Invisibility bit....

[ValhaHazred]

I was ready to yell but I could see that working pretty well.

[Hixlysss]

I honestly suggested that Loki's cloak should be toggleable, press it and he goes invis and it uses up energy. I do agree about the damage multiplier thing you got going there that it increases with level of the mod + strength mods rather than just a flat increase at any level.

 

Decoy should be duration based in all honest. Switch Teleport....I got nothing for that. And the only thing I'd do to Radial disarm, is that it should do damage. Just a simple 300 damage at max, kinda small, would be enough to do something because it is 100% useless vs infested.

[VKhaun]

Mostly disagree.

 

1) I'm indifferent.

 

2) No, that sounds like something for Ash. Loki fighting from stealth fits his style. If it needs a nerf, I would nerf it by giving the enemies tool or making it drop temporarily on some trigger like giving or recieving damage.Maybe even make it a toggle, though that's not a solution I really like.

 

3) That's just making the skill easier to use. I'm not really in favor of lowering the skill cap. The game is already fairly easy with very few skills you actually need to aim at unpredictable players. Switch Teleport is a good power to make people aim and Loki is a good frame to have an aimed power IMO.

 

4) I don't think Radial Disarm needs a buff. I'm actually on the fence about it needing a nerf because of how OP it is with Vauban, essentially making any faction into the infested and sending them straight into a Vortex, but Vortex is it's own problem and if they nerf that in some way then Radial Disarm would be fine.

[PixalatedVortex]

you do understand that if Loki was permanently invisible you could just walk though levels and what not

Edited June 19, 2014 by PixalatedVortex

[Kaokasalis]

I stopped reading at your suggesting for invisibility.

[DaftMeat]

2. Invisibility: I think we all know the issues with this power, so here's my solution:

Make Invisibility a non-duration-based power (like Iron Skin is currently.) Instead, make it so that Loki is permanently invisible UNTIL he makes an attack (a single attack) from any weapon (primary, secondary, melee), and give that weapon 2x / 3x / 4x damage (increased by Power Strength mods)

This allows Loki players to use Invisibility for defense, healing allies, or to make ONE strong attack. Since it is no longer affected by duration, it breaks the "cloaky" build. This also distinguishes Invisibility better from Smoke Screen.

Additionally:

Invisibility COULD have a mechanic where you remain invisible for a VERY short time AFTER making your attack, and that period could be extended by adding Power Duration mods.

 

So basically make Capture, Spy, and even Sabotage missions even less of a challenge for Loki players?

[NikolaiLev]

Nice ideas.  I still like the idea of enemies reacting to your more accurately if you use loud weapons, or are in combat too much.

 

All in all, invisibility is too powerful and sucks the challenge out of the game unnecessarily.

[Towermice]

half of this is pretty good except for decoy and invisibility. What am I supposed to do to attack? shoot them and hope I don't get one-shotted?

[RealPandemonium]

you do understand that if Loki was permanently invisible you could just walk though levels and what not

He can already do this, he only needs the mods.

[LOKIME]

I would add to  first ability that the bullets that are shot by decoy to make (random)status change, it would make it more interesting, of course the damage should be very low and the status change should be 80%-100%

 

No, please no, i like how invisibility works.

[Zachles]

I stopped reading at your suggesting for invisibility.

[Rabidbluedeath]

1. Eh w/e sure. 

 

2. no, just no. Terrible idea, terrible execution. "Lets make Loki's only good ability for damage completely worthless for damage!" is the TLDR of that. There is no problem with Invisibility.

 

3. Eh, Sounds kinda complicated. More so than it needs to be. I see no problem with the ability in its current form

 

4. While it would be nice if it did healthy amounts of damage it just reeks of being OP. "Hey lets take one of the best enfeebles in the game and make it do good damage too"

 

TLDR of your post as I read it is "I really like Loki, but I want to change pretty much everything. So I guess you could say I like Loki's model and the idea of Loki but don't actually like him as a frame currently." I also don't get why people have a problem with invisibility. The frame is fragile as hell, the only thing that broke invisibility was corrupted mods, the AI is a far better target to go after than nerfing invisibility to an un-usable degree.

[ss4chris]

 

I stopped reading at your suggesting for invisibility.

 

 

 

 in all honesty loki is fine where he's at. its the AIs that need a tune up.

[Ace4225]

you do understand that if Loki was permanently invisible you could just walk though levels and what not

You do understand that, if you did that, you would get 0 XP.

(btw, you can ALREADY do this if you have a "cloaky" with Enemy Sense)

Edited June 19, 2014 by Ace4225

[PixalatedVortex]

who cares you would do it for the rewards like farming Void stuff

[Ace4225]

I'm going to revise the suggestion for Invisbility since I like some of the responses I've gotten:


Make Invisibility have no duration, but make it togglable with a slow energy drain AND make it for a single-attack use.
(or just togglable period)


Thoughts?

Edited June 19, 2014 by Ace4225

[Rabidbluedeath]

 in all honesty loki is fine where he's at. its the AIs that need a tune up.

Thank god, someone else that gets it. Though I am afraid our voices of reason are too few and far between to matter my friend. Here is to hoping we are enough to stop another misguided band-aid nerf in the name of balance.

[Rabidbluedeath]

I'm going to revise the suggestion for Invisbility since I like some of the responses I've gotten:

Make Invisibility have no duration, but make it togglable with a slow energy drain AND make it for a single-attack use.

Thoughts?

Again... "Lets make Loki's only damage boosting ability completely worthless for damage." I don't care if it kills that target so hard his parents die, its a single target damage ability in a game where single target damage abilities are worthless. 

 

There is no issue with invisibility really, the issue is with warframes lemming AI. There are so many better ways to solve the "issue" of perma invis. New enemy types that specifically look for invisible players and attach markers to them giving enemies a general vicinity to fire at until you roll knocking it off. Ive posted plenty more in other such threads looking to fix what isn't broken. 

[7grims]

I almost never use my invisibility, only to resurrect fallen tennos.

 

And I do hope DE disregards your ideas, cause your invisibility idea, is basically using shade sentinel...

[Ace4225]

Thank god, someone else that gets it. Though I am afraid our voices of reason are too few and far between to matter my friend. Here is to hoping we are enough to stop another misguided band-aid nerf in the name of balance.

except that Loki has been broken a number of ways; the newest of which being permanent cloak.

[theammostore]

you do understand that if Loki was permanently invisible you could just walk though levels and what not

You mean like he does right now?

 

I'm going to revise the suggestion for Invisbility since I like some of the responses I've gotten:

Make Invisibility have no duration, but make it togglable with a slow energy drain AND make it for a single-attack use.

(or just togglable period)

Thoughts?

This works. I like it. Toggleable invis, breaks invis on an attack, gives a far greater boost for damage on that one attack...I love it.

 

Perhaps give it something like that 'grace' period where you have some extra damage for only a couple extra seconds or attacks, whichever hits first.

 

 

Again... "Lets make Loki's only damage boosting ability completely worthless for damage." I don't care if it kills that target so hard his parents die, its a single target damage ability in a game where single target damage abilities are worthless. 

 

There is no issue with invisibility really, the issue is with warframes lemming AI. There are so many better ways to solve the "issue" of perma invis. New enemy types that specifically look for invisible players and attach markers to them giving enemies a general vicinity to fire at until you roll knocking it off. Ive posted plenty more in other such threads looking to fix what isn't broken. 

Loki isn't meant for damage. He's manipulation and CC. His 'only damage boosting ability being worthless for damage' isn't that much of a bad thing.

 

And it wouldn't be fully useless, you could take out that one massive Eximus or something. Or nuke that one particular heavy gunner you really dislike.

[CY13ERPUNK]

nah

 

better loki rework:

 

decoy - decoy's hp/shield/armor scale with owner's, then the rank of the power gives it 1x/2x/3x/4x the base stats, additionally if the decoy dies from enemy dmg, then it deals 1x/2x/3x/4x the dmg it received in a small AOE around the decoy

 

Invis - no functional changes (i like OP's ideas on changing Invis, however I think those ideas would be a much better fit for Ash's smokebomb instead)

 

Swap - i like the "tagging" idea, but ive also suggested in the past that swap tele should stun/conf the tgt if an enemy for 1/2/3/4 secs

 

disarm - remove the dmg to infested chargers, instead disarm debuffs the movspd/atkspd/dmg of all tgts by 10/20/30/40%, now disarm is functional vs all factions, additionally disarm could have a RANDOM chance, like say 10/20/30/40 or 20/40/60/80% to critically disarm units that lose their guns, dealing 200/400/600/800 dmg to them (this is NOT intended to change disarm into a dmg power, but more as flavor, since its a random chance of happening)

[Vexxie]

4. Radial Disarm: While it's good currently (especially at high-level play), it could be better, and here's one way how:

Make Radial Disarm work like an AOE "Overload" (Mass Effect tech power) - Radial Disarm causes the guns of all enemies in the radius to instantly overheat and explode, dealing damage to the enemies AND forcing them to resort to melee combat.

-Radial Disarm should deal Blast (or Heat) damage to ALL enemies (not just Infested Chargers.) Damage amount can still be affected by Power Strength, but the base level should be significantly lower than Rhino Stomp's (maybe 300-400 at max.) The above explanation could allow for a distinctive animation; the weapons take a couple seconds to "overheat" before they explode, building tension to the moment and giving the enemy one last quick use of their weapons before the power finishes its effect.

-beyond this point, Radial Disarm could work the way it does currently; having no duration.

Didn't care about the changes till here, because it is here that I slap you on the wrist with the paddle. You were so close to this not being an "I like my frame but I want moar" thread. Radial Disarm in no way needs a buff, Especially a no duration, that's just laughable broken. It works fine, don't be greedy and ask for more.