Renegade343 Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) Hello all, This suggestion originally came from this thread, but I believe that it is comprehensive enough to be its own thread. So, here is the content below: As most players will know, Toxic damage bypasses shields. Now this may not be much of a problem, but it means that players will only have to deal damage to health in order to kill off Crewmen and MOAs (Grineer enemies, for some reason, will not have Toxic damage bypass their health [correct me if I am wrong]). This would also mean players will also have Toxic damage directly damaging Warframe health, which, with the preview of Devstream 30 (Toxic damage puddles/clouds/rain[!] everywhere from Infested enemies), is not a good sign. Thus, my proposal for reworking Toxic damage is this: Most players would already know that Slash proc DOT totally bypasses shields (the reason for this still evades me), and Fire proc DOT deals damage on shields (or health if shields are depleted). My proposal would be to have Toxic proc DOT deal both on shields and health, but with 80% on shields and 20% on health, with a cap on 6 health damage per second. My justification for this is because the player's Warframe have ventilation and gas prevention measures (which is included in the shields), meaning the Tenno within will not take the full brunt of the toxins, thus meaning that the toxins will mostly be blocked by the shields, while a few traces still enter the Tenno within. This mechanism will also be applied to all enemies and NPC allies. As for Toxic damage itself, only 5% of the Toxic damage will bypass shields, for the same reason above. An alternate proposal (thanks to the discussion below): If the enemy has armour but no shields: - If Toxic status proc occurs: 50% of Toxic damage as DOT on the weapon is applied to the enemy red health (Cloned Flesh, Flesh, Robotic, Infested Flesh etc.) (since armour is not an addition to red health types) (that means the Toxic DOT bypasses armour damage mitigation). - Direct Toxic Damage (not status): 100% of Toxic damage is applied to the enemy (affected by armour damage mitigation). If the enemy has shields but no armour: - If Toxic status proc occurs: 15% of Toxic damage as DOT is applied to enemy shields, and 35% of Toxic damage as DOT is applied to enemy red health. - Direct Toxic Damage (not status): 20% of Toxic damage is applied to enemy red health, 80% of Toxic damage is applied to enemy shields. If the enemy has shields and armour: - If Toxic status proc occurs: Apply the shield Toxic DOT mechanism first, then when shield is depleted, apply armour Toxic DOT mechanism. - Direct Toxic Damage: Apply the shield Toxic damage mechanism first, then when shield is depleted, apply armour Toxic damage mechanism. If the enemy has no shields and armour, then 100% direct Toxic damage to enemy red health and 50% Toxic damage as DOT to enemy health. The Toxic status DOT has a cap of 10 damage per second, and will only lower the enemy health down to 15% of its maximum value (this also applies to direct Toxic damage if shields are active. If not, then Toxic damage can kill the enemy). Some people may ask: What about Fire proc DOT then? If you rework Toxic proc DOT to what it is above, then Fire proc DOT will not be as unique! My suggestion for making Fire proc DOT unique again is that any enemy/ally who is in contact with another enemy/ally that has a Fire proc DOT will receive the Fire proc DOT, but with three-quarters the damage and time compared to the original. This mechanism will only allow Fire proc DOT to be stacked up to three times, but can be spread indefinitely. With this mechanism, that means players can attempt to herd enemies and set them on fire, causing Fire proc DOT from both the initial weapon and the contact procs to deal substantial damage to the group of enemies, or players can use it as a small kamikaze method when they are on fire (I am on fire! Might as well spread it to soften/kill the enemies), or as a small deterrent (This enemy is on fire! I do not want he/she touching me! Might as well run away from him/her!) Of course, that means Fire proc damage will have to be stronger in order to make this mechanism useful (maybe around 75% of Fire damage on a weapon, up to a maximum of 75 Fire damage per second?). With these changes, I hope to make Toxic damage more level with the other damage types, diversifying player builds. Please give constructive criticism to this suggestion so that it can be improved if needed. Renegade343 To see my other threads, please go to my profile. Edited June 29, 2014 by Renegade343
Angius Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 Toxins and poisons effect your body. You don't see your clothes dissolvin when you eat a rat poison. It's perfectly reasonable, people just need to watch out and be aware of what surrounds them. The idea with Fire Proc tweak is great.
Renegade343 Posted June 20, 2014 Author Posted June 20, 2014 Toxins and poisons effect your body. You don't see your clothes dissolvin when you eat a rat poison. It's perfectly reasonable, people just need to watch out and be aware of what surrounds them. The idea with Fire Proc tweak is great. Then again though, we do have bio-armour, so it stands to reason that there can be ventilation measures to prevent toxins from affecting the body. And besides, this is more of a gameplay mechanic in order to make Toxic damage be more fair, both to players and enemies.
taiiat Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) My proposal would be to have Toxic proc DOT deal both on shields and health, but with 90% on shields and 10% on health My suggestion for making Fire proc DOT unique again is that any enemy/ally who is in contact with another enemy/ally that has a Fire proc DOT will receive the Fire proc DOT, but with three-quarters the damage and time compared to the original. This mechanism will only allow Fire proc DOT to be stacked up to three times, but can be spread indefinitely. summed up the thread. i agree with the lines i left there. Edit: actually, make it 60/40. 60% Shields, 40% Health. Edited June 20, 2014 by taiiat
so_many_watermelons Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) Toxins and poisons effect your body. You don't see your clothes dissolvin when you eat a rat poison. It's perfectly reasonable, people just need to watch out and be aware of what surrounds them. The idea with Fire Proc tweak is great. The thing is, as OP said, we are using Warframes, and we're not eating rat poison. Renegade, you have a great idea here. Me and a buddy just did a ODD ( left at wave 10 due to annoyance. Got a freaking Mutagen Mass. Really, DE? As if we didn't get enough from Invasions.) and we were getting extremely annoyed at the large toxic clouds left in trails by the new Opseys. Why? Well, because we don't like to play Rhino 24/7. He was leveling up his new Hydroid, which meant he was getting 8 second procs of 18-20 damage constantly, and I had to pick him up. I kept getting them too, and despite playing as Saryn, I was getting knocked down repeatedly. Sure, I could take getting health damage from the clouds, but the random, and might I add, high chance of getting proc'd on it was the most annoying thing ever. The proc was probably the reason for 90% of the damage that I took, because it happened so often that any previous proc I had would simply refresh to another 8 seconds. I hope that changes could be made soon to Toxic damage, and the whole proc chance should be relooked at. Right now, as is, Toxic is both the most deadly and the most outright annoying thing in this game. I forgot to add one more thing: you can't always keep an eye on things that cause those procs. I know it's pretty hectic while fighting Lephantis, and you can't really keep a good eye on poison clouds sometimes, especially during the second part. Edited June 20, 2014 by so_many_watermelons
Renegade343 Posted June 20, 2014 Author Posted June 20, 2014 Edit: actually, make it 60/40. 60% Shields, 40% Health. Not to be nit-picking about numbers, but I feel somewhat 'violated' when I see a 60-40% split (since it is so close to 50-50%, but so far). I think 80-20% would be better.
taiiat Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) Not to be nit-picking about numbers, but I feel somewhat 'violated' when I see a 60-40% split (since it is so close to 50-50%, but so far). I think 80-20% would be better. it's stretching it to say that Toxin would affect Shields to start with, so 50/50 is really fair, considering it would probably be 0/100 in reality. Edit: the sources of Toxin Effects is normally the issue, not the Effects themselves. 'course, when Enemy Levels get way up there, Toxin Effects eat people alive, but that's a scaling problem. Edited June 20, 2014 by taiiat
SableSonata Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 It's fine, and bleed too, if they just make it so that bleed and toxin are unable to kill on their own. Just reduce the victim to a minimum health value (whether an absolute, or percentage, either would be fine).
Hexagoros Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 Toxins and poisons effect your body. You don't see your clothes dissolvin when you eat a rat poison. It's perfectly reasonable, people just need to watch out and be aware of what surrounds them. The idea with Fire Proc tweak is great. Err...you missed the part where our guys literally walk around in the void of space, and it doesn't effect them? That means the bio-suits/warframes must have some kind of internal life support system. Yet somehow, airborne poison bothers us? It makes no sense.
Renegade343 Posted June 20, 2014 Author Posted June 20, 2014 it's stretching it to say that Toxin would affect Shields to start with, so 50/50 is really fair, considering it would probably be 0/100 in reality. Edit: the sources of Toxin Effects is normally the issue, not the Effects themselves. 'course, when Enemy Levels get way up there, Toxin Effects eat people alive, but that's a scaling problem. Hence the justification that the ventilation and gas prevention systems on our Warframes are tied to the shield, meaning to use it, it will drain shields. As for sources of Toxin Effects, it is more of a gameplay mechanic to level the playing field (5% of Toxic damage directly dealt to health allows players ample time to get out, and for enemies to survive a bit better).
taiiat Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 As for sources of Toxin Effects, it is more of a gameplay mechanic to level the playing field (5% of Toxic damage directly dealt to health allows players ample time to get out, and for enemies to survive a bit better). the sources of Toxin Effects and their scaling is far more of an issue than how the Damage is applied. we're better off tweaking the source of the issue, than trying to bandaid it by changing a mechanic that is sound. also, Enemies survive against things just fine. the problem is Corpus and Infested don't have any Armor, so EVERYTHING absolutely destroys them. Armor is atleast 5x as effective at protecting Enemies as Shields or Flesh/Robotic is. Enemies without Armor simply get instantly toasted. so the problem with our Enemies then is only Grineer and Corrupted actually have any Survivability.
Renegade343 Posted June 20, 2014 Author Posted June 20, 2014 the sources of Toxin Effects and their scaling is far more of an issue than how the Damage is applied. we're better off tweaking the source of the issue, than trying to bandaid it by changing a mechanic that is sound. also, Enemies survive against things just fine. the problem is Corpus and Infested don't have any Armor, so EVERYTHING absolutely destroys them. Armor is atleast 5x as effective at protecting Enemies as Shields or Flesh/Robotic is. Enemies without Armor simply get instantly toasted. so the problem with our Enemies then is only Grineer and Corrupted actually have any Survivability. But if we set the Toxic direct damage to health to a maximum of 5%, then it should make the Corpus and Infested survive a bit longer (at the very least, the full toxic damage will not directly deal damage to health), right?
taiiat Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 But if we set the Toxic direct damage to health to a maximum of 5%, then it should make the Corpus and Infested survive a bit longer (at the very least, the full toxic damage will not directly deal damage to health), right? sure, they'll survive longer, but it doesn't address the core of the problem. and Armored Enemies will laugh at Toxin Effects even more. dealing 50% of it's Damage in a DoT is what makes Toxin useful at all. taking that away, makes it, not. but compromising a bit and having part of that 50% go to Shields, is acceptable i suppose.
Renegade343 Posted June 20, 2014 Author Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) sure, they'll survive longer, but it doesn't address the core of the problem. and Armored Enemies will laugh at Toxin Effects even more. dealing 50% of it's Damage in a DoT is what makes Toxin useful at all. taking that away, makes it, not. but compromising a bit and having part of that 50% go to Shields, is acceptable i suppose. Ah. Thanks for confirming that armoured enemies will not have Toxic DOT bypass their armour (then again, though, do armoured enemies stack armour on top of their health or add it with the base red health?). EDIT: How about this: If enemy has armour but no shield: If Toxic status proc occurs: 50% of Toxic damage as DOT on the weapon is applied to the enemy red health (since armour is not an addition to red health types) (that means the Toxic DOT bypasses armour damage mitigation). Direct Toxic Damage (not status): 100% of Toxic damage is applied to the enemy (affected by armour damage mitigation). If enemy has shield but no armour (if shields are up): If Toxic status proc occurs: 15% of Toxic damage as DOT is applied to enemy shields, and 35% of Toxic damage as DOT is applied to enemy red health. Direct Toxic Damage (not status): 20% of Toxic damage is applied to enemy red health, 80% of Toxic damage is applied to enemy shields. If enemy has shield and armour: If Toxic status proc occurs: Apply the shield Toxic DOT mechanism first, then when shield is depleted, apply armour Toxic DOT mechanism. Direct Toxic Damage: Apply the shield Toxic damage mechanism first, then when shield is depleted, apply armour Toxic damage mechanism. The Toxic status DOT has a cap of 10 damage per second, and will only lower the enemy health down to 15% of its maximum value. This should hopefully allow Toxic to be useful while levelling the playing field for all players and enemies. Edited June 21, 2014 by Renegade343
RancidTurnip1603 Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) As a gameplay mechanic, I like that Toxin bypasses shields. It's a unique trait of the damage types and can be used in some interesting builds. What I don't like however, is that it bypasses shields, does extra damage to flesh with no negatives against armor, and has the weakest corresponding resistance mod of the primary elements. I personally would be happier if either Anti-toxin was buffed to 60% reduction matching the other resistance mods, or if the 50% bonus damage to health was reduced to a more reasonable level (15%-25%). I would also not be against it having a negative damage modifier to alloy armor in order to give people another means to mitigate the damage, but I would not be as thrilled about that change, would just make tanky frames tankier with no help to the squishier frames which are already hit the hardest. Edited June 20, 2014 by RancidTurnip1603
Renegade343 Posted June 20, 2014 Author Posted June 20, 2014 Added an alternate proposal to the thread, so that people can discuss which one is better.
taiiat Posted June 20, 2014 Posted June 20, 2014 As a gameplay mechanic, I like that Toxin bypasses shields. It's a unique trait of the damage types and can be used in some interesting builds. or if the 50% bonus damage to health was reduced to a more reasonable level (15%-25%). - i like Toxin as well, it's fairly unique. - that's... probably the source of the problem. not only does it have some great traits to it, it also has it's Damage increased against most of the weaker targets, and neutral against the better protected targets. so based on that, i'd say 'Flesh', +25%, and Tenno Flesh, +15%. because Tenno are derived from Technocyte (with Technology applied to it for more advanced and controlled mutation), and Infested, which are Technocyte, are either Neutral or Resistant to Toxin. however, Tenno aren't 'space zombies', they're fully functioning living things, so still some bonus. quite a few things already use +-15% to certain Health Types, so this wouldn't be the first oddball number out there by far. and if we also address the scaling of Toxin(which gets out of hand as Levels go up), the problem is then fixed, without changing the functionality and purpose of any Damage Types. and i'm still all for Fire being able to spread. maybe not spreading infinitely, that might be a bit ridiculous in certain situations, but being able to spread a few times around would be great.
Renegade343 Posted June 21, 2014 Author Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) and i'm still all for Fire being able to spread. maybe not spreading infinitely, that might be a bit ridiculous in certain situations, but being able to spread a few times around would be great. But since the Fire status proc spread is three quarters of the duration and damage, that means it will have diminishing returns, which means there will be a point where the Fire status proc spread will stop (less than 1 second). Edited June 21, 2014 by Renegade343
Renegade343 Posted June 21, 2014 Author Posted June 21, 2014 and if we also address the scaling of Toxin(which gets out of hand as Levels go up), the problem is then fixed, without changing the functionality and purpose of any Damage Types. What about the alternate proposal? It should level the Toxic damage effects on armoured enemies and shielded enemies?
taiiat Posted June 21, 2014 Posted June 21, 2014 But since the Fire status proc spread is three quarters of the duration and damage, that means it will have diminishing returns, which means there will be a point where the Fire status proc spread will stop (less than 1 second). mmm, but there could be performance issues if Fire spreads too much at once. which would be preferable to avoid. ex. - in Metro: Last Light, the 'Spider Cave' addon Mission, there's some places where there's tons of nasty stuff, and you have a Flamethrower, so the first thought it burn everything because that's cool. all of the added Dynamic Lighting instances resulted in my Framerate going from it's cap of 120 to 45 while burning tons of stuff. same thing can happen in Warframe if we don't clamp it enough. i'd love for Fire to be able to spread basically forever, but for balance and performance reasons, it's probably not a good idea to be close to that. and there'd need to be a cutoff point as well, if the Fire spreads and won't last atleast 1 Second, it should just cancel. What about the alternate proposal? It should level the Toxic damage effects on armoured enemies and shielded enemies? it should be consistent across Enemies, don't change the mechanics of the Effect, that only makes it more confusing for newer players. they're lost enough as it is.
Renegade343 Posted June 21, 2014 Author Posted June 21, 2014 it should be consistent across Enemies, don't change the mechanics of the Effect, that only makes it more confusing for newer players. they're lost enough as it is. But it is rather simple: Shields make Toxic damage deal 80% to shields and 20% to health, and Toxic DOT (from 50% of Toxic damage) deals 50% to shields and 50% to health (unaffected by armour damage mitigation + resistances/weaknesses). Armour makes Toxic damage deal 100% to health (affected by armour damage mitigation + resistances/weaknesses), and Toxic DOT (from 50% of Toxic damage) deals 100% to health (unaffected by armour damage mitigation + resistances/weaknesses). That should be simple enough for players to grasp at.
RealPandemonium Posted June 26, 2014 Posted June 26, 2014 We hardly have to deal with Toxin damage in normal play as it is; stop trying to get our toys vs Corpus taken away.
Renegade343 Posted June 26, 2014 Author Posted June 26, 2014 We hardly have to deal with Toxin damage in normal play as it is; stop trying to get our toys vs Corpus taken away. Well, for one thing, Toxic damage feels too powerful, both for us and the enemies, compared to all the other damage types, so that is why I toned it down a bit to level the playing field between us and the enemies for Toxic. It still has its shield-bypassing damage, but lessened.
CosyPigeon Posted June 26, 2014 Posted June 26, 2014 (edited) Toxins and poisons effect your body. You don't see your clothes dissolvin when you eat a rat poison. It's perfectly reasonable, people just need to watch out and be aware of what surrounds them. The idea with Fire Proc tweak is great. True, but whilst my cotton tshirt might not be much protection against toxins, a fully enclosed hermetically sealed Warframe suit capable of EVA in SPACE surrounded by a glowing force field, should offer excellent protection against toxins. Personally I'm in favor of a rework for toxin damage, I'd like to see it dealt as a flat percentage of health if it has to damage health at all, just to encourage people to play something other than Rhino during any mission where there is toxic dealing infested. Edited June 26, 2014 by CosyPigeon
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