The Infested Ospreys. What The Hell?! Are You Serious?!?!

[Taranis49]

Then the obvious answer would be vigor and vitality or equip anti toxin with vitality or equilibrium or quick thinking

 

It wouldn't help if he's croaking after half the time's elapsed - Anti-toxin only reduces the damage by 45% at max rank, i.e. the end result's the same (it just happens a couple seconds later) and it's still useless.

 

High-level bleed procs from Evis/Seekers suffer from the same problem.

 

It also runs contrary to your idea that it's "challenging" on the basis of guys needing to switch loadouts; switching loadouts ain't challenging. Prosecutors suffer from a similar problem by their gimmicky nature. It's not an engaging challenge to overcome (i.e. fun) it's just another gear-check - that's not challenge, it's the absence of it.

[Zaresin]

It wouldn't help if he's croaking after half the time's elapsed - Anti-toxin only reduces the damage by 45% at max rank, i.e. the end result's the same (it just happens a couple seconds later) and it's still useless.

 

High-level bleed procs from Evis/Seekers suffer from the same problem.

 

It also runs contrary to your idea that it's "challenging" on the basis of guys needing to switch loadouts; switching loadouts ain't challenging. Prosecutors suffer from a similar problem by their gimmicky nature. It's not an engaging challenge to overcome (i.e. fun) it's just another gear-check - that's not challenge, it's the absence of it.

Huh...45% of 400 (as an example) is 180 so 400-180 is 220 health removed. Only thing I think that would kill is an unranked frame or a Loki. Sorry but it is more a learn to play issue from all appearances than a over powered enemy issue. We have a crap ton of defensive mods that are not used or under used and we now have a reason to use them, maybe people should try to plan accordingly and learn the game before crying for nerfs. We've all become too complacent on how easy this game is.

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

Hmm...yeah, I would say make antitoxin stronger, but those ospreys were giving my teams trouble as well.

Or, instead of making antitoxin stronger, how about no proccing (cloud wears down your health as long as you stay in it), and it will affect the player after a longer duration of time, say 1.5 seconds later (as suggested by DiabolusUrsus) as opposed to immediately.

Edited June 20, 2014 by -SLX-J3tAc3

[Taranis49]

Huh...45% of 400 (as an example) is 180 so 400-180 is 220 health removed.

 

Except the post you responded to pointed out he lost 600 HP in four secs over an 8 second proc, for an average of 150 hp per tick (other people have been reporting similar figures), over 8 seconds that's 1,200 HP, which with a 45% reduction means it's still doing 660 damage (i.e. still guaranteed death for most frames without a maxed vitality too).

 

You can try to weasel around it by making the figures somehow be a third of what's commonly reported to justify gear-checks as "challenge", and you'd still be wrong.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Taranis49

[Zaresin]

Except the post you responded to pointed out he lost 600 HP in four secs over an 8 second proc, for an average of 150 hp per tick (people have been reporting similar figures), over 8 seconds that's 1,200 HP, which with a 45% reduction would still be 540 hp (i.e. still instant death for most frames without a maxed vitality too).

You can try to weasel around it by making the figures somehow be a third of what's commonly reported to justify gear-checks as "challenge", and you'd still be wrong.

Vitality and vigor are what we are prob needing on top of anti toxin. I have yet to die from them even on my Loki prime. It's a new enemy and to be honest it is more complacency that is getting people killed rather than adapting to a new enemy. Wonder how many people did the same thing they did the day before the update and expected the same results. If I were a betting man, pretty much all would be my bet. Edited June 20, 2014 by Zaresin

[Tsukinoki]

@Zaresin
I've had those ospreys deal 1100+ damage to a health build ash I tried to deal with them, and I still had a few poison ticks left.  And this was level 25 drones mind you.
So even giving up Redirection for Vitality and then giving up another slot for a maxed anti-toxin they are still dealing 605+ damage.  Enough to kill Loki out-right unless I give up *another* slot for vigor, and even then Loki wont be surviving if there is more than one of them at the same time.   And that 605 damage figure is the low-ball  as since I had a few poison ticks left I dont even think that a maxed Vitality + Vigor + Anti-Toxin would keep Loki alive, especially with how broken the toxic areas from the clouds are.

AND add to the fact that you can be anywhere above or below the clouds and get hit by the toxin proc and massive damage AND the fact that the clouds are sometimes invisible practically so you just suddenly see your health tank for absolutely no reason and your dieing and you cant even see a drone near you.

Yeah.  These guys really need a balance pass and one (or both) of the following needs to happen:
1) Only one can spawn at any possible time.
2) Massively, and I do mean massively, reduce the toxin damage and procs that they deal.

And that's on top of needing to fix the clouds, make them clearly visible, and ONLY actually damage and proc you if you stand in the middle of them.  As well as making the clouds not last for nearly as long as they do now.  I mean they last for over 3 seconds apparently.

But these aren't challenging.  These are random "You're dead!  Hope you didnt' mind we didn't warn your or have anything visible to show that there was a super toxic cloud here!"
Gear checks are never challenging.
They are just annoying ways for the game to steal a few revives from you while you wonder what killed you.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[inappropriatename5818]

Jupiter-Sinai, Infested defense used to be a fun hack and slash brawl. Now its a non stop poison death turd. These infested ospreys are horrific, they are even tricky to shoot down at the end. We quit on wave 10 because it is just stupid. You have ruined a very fun part of the game.

Exactly how I feel about this. First they nerfed rewards to garbage common mods on highest level planets, then they upped the leader spawnrate to insanity, now this. Playing infested defense is self torture. I rather just not play the game if this stays like it is now...

[Zaresin]

@Zaresin

I've had those ospreys deal 1100+ damage to a health build ash I tried to deal with them, and I still had a few poison ticks left.  And this was level 25 drones mind you.

So even giving up Redirection for Vitality and then giving up another slot for a maxed anti-toxin they are still dealing 605+ damage.  Enough to kill Loki out-right unless I give up *another* slot for vigor, and even then Loki wont be surviving if there is more than one of them at the same time.

AND add to the fact that you can be anywhere above or below the clouds and get hit by the toxin proc and massive damage AND the fact that the clouds are sometimes invisible practically so you just suddenly see your health tank for absolutely no reason and your dieing and you cant even see a drone near you.

Yeah.  These guys really need a balance pass and one (or both) of the following needs to happen:

1) Only one can spawn at any possible time.

2) Massively, and I do mean massively, reduce the toxin damage and procs that they deal.

And that's on top of needing to fix the clouds, make them clearly visible, and ONLY actually damage and proc you if you stand in the middle of them.  As well as making the clouds not last for nearly as long as they do now.  I mean they last for over 3 seconds apparently.

But these aren't challenging.  These are random "You're dead!  Hope you didnt' mind we didn't warn your or have anything visible to show that there was a super toxic cloud here!"

Gear checks are never challenging.

They are just annoying ways for the game to steal a few revives from you while you wonder what killed you.

 

The procs should not be scaling on enemy level to be honest, that does need to change due to the high proc chance (this includes bleeds as well).  The ability to be tagged by the cloud when above it sounds more like a bug than an intended design as I haven't seen this issue myself.  Visibility of the clouds needs to be addressed as well (this I have noticed).  Has anyone heard any feedback from the designers on how they are intended to function since they went live?  The cloud damage should scale as you should not be running up to give them a hug in the first place so that should not change but the proc yes it should stay the same regardless of level.  

Edited June 20, 2014 by Zaresin

[CaptainohCaptain]

it just happens a couple seconds later)

i.e. it works.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Icouldjustkissyou

[Tsukinoki]

@Icouldjustkissyou
I dont consider it working when it will kill some frames regardless.

A loki with maxed Redirection + Vigor + Anti-Toxin will still die to these guys before all of the ticks have finished.  If it can kill a max health build Ash (1290 health) and still have some ticks left over there is no hope for Loki or other squishy frames.
And there is lterally nothing else that can be added to stop him from dieing as it ignores armor, and even if it didn't Loki's armor is low enough it wouldn't help.

Maybe if anti-toxin maxed out at 60% or something it would be better.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[Zaresin]

@Icouldjustkissyou

I dont consider it working when it will kill some frames regardless.

A loki with maxed Redirection + Vigor + Anti-Toxin will still die to these guys.

And there is lterally nothing else that can be added to stop him from dieing as it ignores armor, and even if it didn't Loki's armor is low enough it wouldn't help.

Maybe if anti-toxin maxed out at 60% or something it would be better.

 

60% won't help at all either after a certain point if you stand in the cloud as the damage scales on level of the enemy so either way you will still have issues.  If you want to actually live, don't stand in or near the cloud.  The cloud hitting you when you are not in its radius needs to be addressed as well as its visibility.  (I don't like that the proc scales on level, that is more insult to injury than anything as it is near unavoidable unlike the cloud as you can leave the cloud if you survive).  Would be different if we had a cleanse ability (new sentinel mod doing that would be nice).

Edited June 20, 2014 by Zaresin

[Tsukinoki]

@Zaresin
I usually get the procs from just running through an area, not standing still anywhere, and they are still enough to kill a max health build Ash.  SO please stop saying that all I'm doing is standing in the middle of poison clouds with my thumbs up my arse, because I'm not.  I run through an area.  I see the toxic icon on my Hud.  Few seconds later I die and there is nothing I can do about it.

[ShardsSuperior]

I like them, actually. It gives me a chance to practice marksmanship with my Dread

 

I don't mind the shield-bypassing damage, either. However... why do they have almost guaranteed procs? 

[Zaresin]

@Zaresin

I usually get the procs from just running through an area, not standing still anywhere, and they are still enough to kill a max health build Ash.  SO please stop saying that all I'm doing is standing in the middle of poison clouds with my thumbs up my arse, because I'm not.  I run through an area.  I see the toxic icon on my Hud.  Few seconds later I die and there is nothing I can do about it.

 

 

Did you miss the part about me saying "visibility needs to be addressed"?  It seems that you did.  Your reading comprehension could use a little work....or you know..next time don't skim.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Zaresin

[Experiement626]

Regardless of ways to survive the poison, You stiill end up wasting time at the end of every wave trying to snipe down these little @#@#'s it is not fun so has no place in the game.

[EvanTheNewbie]

Remove the toxic cload and make them spawn and drop ancients. That'd be cool.

[Zaresin]

Remove the toxic cload and make them spawn and drop ancients. That'd be cool.

 

Or give the toxics their cloud back and have the new ospreys drop the toxics in. That would be interesting.  But then what would the osprey's do...just float around like the shield ospreys that people usually ignore in almost all corpus missions except when they actually have to kill them?

[Tsukinoki]

@Zaresin
And in the post I replied to you say:

 

60% won't help at all either after a certain point if you stand in the cloud as the damage scales on level of the enemy so either way you will still have issues.  If you want to actually live, don't stand in or near the cloud. 

 

 

And what I'm saying is that I am NOT "standing" anywhere near them. I am running through an area and get hit by them.
 

So NO, I dont "stand in or near the cloud".  I run through an area and die from the procs alone.
And the procs alone can take out a max health build Ash, who is in teh group with the most frame health in the game.  So squishier frames stand absolutely no chance.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[Zaresin]

@Zaresin

And in the post I replied to you say:

 

 

 

And what I'm saying is that I am NOT "standing" anywhere near them. I am running through an area and get hit by them.

 

So NO, I dont "stand in or near the cloud".  I run through an area and die from the procs alone.

 

 

If you are getting hit by invisible clouds..that is a visibility issue and bug....not a mechanic issue.  Those are two separate things.  You are not the only one finding invisible clouds (the torid had this issue as well for the longest time when it could still kill you).

 

It actually sounds like a host/client issue like it has been in the past with similar mechanics.  I honestly wish they would get that right as each update it always rears it's ugly head....every...damn...time.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Zaresin

[Tsukinoki]

@Zaresin
And there is a mechanics issue when there is litterally NO way to build quite a few frames to survive the toxic damage.

How can you justify something that will just kill some frames even if they take all of the defensive mods that should allow them to survive it?

That's not fun, or fair, or challenging.  That's just S#&$ting on you for not taking a Rhino with IS into the missions.

[Zaresin]

@Zaresin

And there is a mechanics issue when there is litterally NO way to build quite a few frames to survive the toxic damage.

How can you justify something that will just kill some frames even if they take all of the defensive mods that should allow them to survive it?

That's not fun, or fair, or challenging.  That's just S#&$ting on you for not taking a Rhino with IS into the missions.

 

 

Should you be allowed to stand in a cloud or near a toxic ancient or in a napalm's fire and not leave scathed or dead?  No you should not.  The proc should not scale on health but the toxic cloud should, but considering all other (napalm proc, toxic proc, bleed proc) all scale on enemy level did you really expect this to be any different?  And the toxic ancient can give you a proc as well if you are near it long enough (unless they fixed that i usually kill those bastards first).  

 

What everyone is whining about is it is because the infested are the EASIEST enemy to grind things with, and now they are not so easy so people are having to reassess their routines and find alternate ways to grind.  That is the issue (outside of the bugs that everyone has noticed).

Edited June 20, 2014 by Zaresin

[Tsukinoki]

@Zaresin
The toxic ancients, when they do proc, dont proc the max number of stacks at such an insanely high damage.
I've been procced by a toxic ancient and suffered maybe 50-70 damage per tick in Sechura Pluto at wave 20.
These guys at a lower level, and a much more common enemy, are dealing 150+ damage per tick right from the very start and instantly stacks on max stacks of toxic, and its a gaurenteed proc.

The toxic ancient procs and gas cloud are surivable if you round a corner into their chest, where you have no warning that a toxic ancient is going to be right there around the corner.
The infested drones toxic clouds are overly deadly and kill you without any warning for even the smallest of "mistakes" of not getting a rhino to round the corner and see if there happens to be a drone there.

In short the new drones are utterly broken with the damage they deal and need to be *severely* toned down in multiple ways.

I dont mind an enemy who punishes me for making a mistake or not paying attention.  But it shouldn't be a "Oh you made a teeny-tiny mistake so it killed you with no way to prevent it even if you built perfectly to protect the frame you're playing from the toxic damage"
That's just overly punishing and cheap when it doesn't matter if you build some frames with all of the right defensive mods you're going to die to the procs and there is nothing you can do about it.
That only punishes the "mistake" of not choosing a frame like Rhino.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[Zaresin]

@Zaresin

The toxic ancients, when they do proc, dont proc the max number of stacks at such an insanely high damage.

I've been procced by a toxic ancient and suffered maybe 50-70 damage per tick in Sechura Pluto at wave 20.

These guys at a lower level, and a much more common enemy, are dealing 150+ damage per tick right from the very start and instantly stacks on max stacks of toxic, and its a gaurenteed proc.

The toxic ancient procs and gas cloud are surivable if you round a corner into their chest, where you have no warning that a toxic ancient is going to be right there around the corner.

The infested drones toxic clouds are overly deadly and kill you without any warning for even the smallest of "mistakes" of not getting a rhino to round the corner and see if there happens to be a drone there.

In short the new drones are utterly broken with the damage they deal and need to be *severely* toned down in multiple ways.

 

 

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on their damage output (on the max stacks, yes I can see that being tweaked) but considering you can mitigate the damage in other ways, no I don't agree the damage should be toned down outside of capping their proc damage.  

 

The visibility issue sounds like it is exactly how the torid used to have a problem where the cloud would stay around longer than the 3 seconds it was supposed to and was notorious for killing players as the cloud was no longer there but still was and was just not visible. 

Edited June 20, 2014 by Zaresin

[InForWar]

Well i played a few games.. it got pretty funny.

 

http://i.imgur.com/sNGFfTQ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/M1lqgYW.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/XM9sEs0.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/A5vFvGc.jpg

 

groups of 4-5 in each picture.

Edited June 20, 2014 by InForWar

[Taranis49]

Well i played a few games.. it got pretty funny.

 

http://i.imgur.com/sNGFfTQ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/M1lqgYW.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/XM9sEs0.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/A5vFvGc.jpg

 

groups of 4-5 in each picture.

 

Given the fact that a good chunk of the guys you were with were MR0's and MR1's, I don't hold out much hope for Warframe's player retention at this rate.

 

I think that's also a good example of why the spawns should be limited too, especially in an enclosed space; even the "oh, just stay out of the cloud!" advice falls kinda flat... there's nowhere you can go that isn't in a cloud, it's like the broken light hilarity all over again. :-P

 

Atleast they're not quite as bad as broken lights since they haven't killed guys before the intro cutscene's finished playing... yet.