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All This Hate On Mutalist Osprey, Analysis On People Reactions To New Difficulty


The_Sharp_Demonologist
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I learned to fear Infested because of this little guy now. It's just amazing to see your team go down with a weed cloud and go "ayudame plis ayudameeeeee hijo de *beep*". Like one guy said here: "Crawl out of it first.". It actually teaches people to not go melee all the way with Infested. It adds to the challenge the game was supposed to have and cancels those rushing Boltorhinos. I really hated to see people rushing in this game and leaving me with at least 10 enemies in a room shooting at me. Now people can learn the meaning of strategy, instead of just running ahead with a Penta.

 

I love you, DE. Now put toxic grenades on Grineer and let's see how it goes.

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the mutalist osprey are even less fun to take on than the old toxic ancients, where the ancients were kind enough to stay on the ground and only dropped the cloud on death, mutalist osprey put the cloud down whenever they do their impersonation of the oxium osprey and zephyr and fly through the air clear away from our nice shiny melee weapons while making a mockery of anyone trying to shoot them(a problem with the base osprey too, but at least those hit shields first and typically flock in places where they are visible instead of camouflaging neatly with the rest of the infested clutter.)

 

the sad thing is: yes, we needed harder enemies, but skipping shields and just being difficult to hit is cheap.

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Annoying as they are, they become so much easier to see and utilize if you roll Nyx. Those poison clouds will still hurt you if the ospreys are chaos'd, but those same clouds can now be used to hurt the infested. Sure, toxic doesn't affect them all that much (at least only for ancients), but having walls of toxic clouds hurting both you and them is better than just you.

Edited by Pizzarugi
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So far I strongly dislike these because, they keep getting stuck and making defense waves much longer then they were, the poison clouds are very deadly (especially at high level), and it changes the infested faction as a whole (all enemies used to be melee). I would like to see these taken out of the game or at least majorly changed.

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Aside from hitbox dissonance (that can be fixed) and lack of melee air attacks (melee 2.0 is getting a revamp anyways), I don't have much to complain about...Ogris and embolist loadout solves all infested-related problems for me. Or an ignis and castana loadout, too.

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"Those Gas clouds are OP", "They are too tough to take down", "I cant kill em with melee" Is all i hear now holy dam guys. Makes me feel like:

 

 

250px-InfestedOsprey.png

 

They are causing quite the QQ burst with only like what 2 days? Must be a record.

For those who havent Experienced a fight with this guys basically they carry crawlers around and then rush at you leaving a trail of toxic damage.

 

Now the bigest complain i heard is that the cloud deals too much damage, since it deals Toxic damage so it bypass shields. You complain that Drones spread Toxic damage clouds and complain about a lack of real dificulty on the game yet when something that actually requires you to think rather than blindly shoot then "THATS OP"

 

 

 

 

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

 

From my understanding of people's gripes with this is the same issue that several very articulate posters like Diablous and Notionphil have brought up previously about their worries about balance and game difficulty. Gimmicks to generate punishing difficulty, not difficulty to provide a challenge, you're treating them as if they are one and the same, they're not. 

 

Ignoring shields and armour, isn't difficulty and it isn't a challenge, it simply punishes anyone who isn't playing Valkyr, Rhino or doesn't have a Trinity in the team, while Nova still slows everything to a crawl with MP's slow. 

 

So what actually changed, what new thinking is involved? Nothing and none. 

 

Boltor Prime spam is still king, 4 to win still rules and Trinity, Rhino and Nova are still the go to for broken enemies which screw everyone over. 

 

What happened is exactly what several of us pointed out was a serious worry in Dev stream 30, low and behold, here is the issue that we brought up, just as predicted. I'd rethink what you just said before spouting self righteous crap regarding people complaining, just because they're complaining.

 

Things, like ignoring shields, large AoE area deniability, incredibly high proc chance/ rate, damage outside the visual cues *cough* napalms* cough* are bad design choices and poor decisions made on the devs part(not the first time either). Simply, it punishes any style of play/ frame which does not revolve around ignoring/ mitigating these aspects, and those powers and frames which do, they remain unaffected, as they were before. It didn't make the game harder, it just limited your options without providing a new one.  

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Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

 

From my understanding of people's gripes with this is the same issue that several very articulate posters like Diablous and Notionphil have brought up previously about their worries about balance and game difficulty. Gimmicks to generate punishing difficulty, not difficulty to provide a challenge, you're treating them as if they are one and the same, they're not. 

 

Ignoring shields and armour, isn't difficulty and it isn't a challenge, it simply punishes anyone who isn't playing Valkyr, Rhino or doesn't have a Trinity in the team, while Nova still slows everything to a crawl with MP's slow. 

 

So what actually changed, what new thinking is involved? Nothing and none. 

 

Boltor Prime spam is still king, 4 to win still rules and Trinity, Rhino and Nova are still the go to for broken enemies which screw everyone over. 

 

What happened is exactly what several of us pointed out was a serious worry in Dev stream 30, low and behold, here is the issue that we brought up, just as predicted. I'd rethink what you just said before spouting self righteous crap regarding people complaining, just because they're complaining.

 

Things, like ignoring shields, large AoE area deniability, incredibly high proc chance/ rate, damage outside the visual cues *cough* napalms* cough* are bad design choices and poor decisions made on the devs part(not the first time either). Simply, it punishes any style of play/ frame which does not revolve around ignoring/ mitigating these aspects, and those powers and frames which do, they remain unaffected, as they were before. It didn't make the game harder, it just limited your options without providing a new one.  

 

 

all im hearing from posts like this is "I wanna go back to my Redirection mod to keep me safe in 100% of all scenarios even though Infested HAVE BEEN the poison faction since the game came out"

 

you guys got toxicity nerfed once before. How about YOU change this time instead of whining about something you can adjust and compensate to yourself first? If it was blatantly OP I would have nothing to say. But its not. a VAST majority of players scream nerf anytime their shield deplete and they start taking hp damage, which is what this screams of.

 

our enemies ARE trying to kill us, like, for serious reals.

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all im hearing from posts like this is "I wanna go back to my Redirection mod to keep me safe in 100% of all scenarios even though Infested HAVE BEEN the poison faction since the game came out"

 

you guys got toxicity nerfed once before. How about YOU change this time instead of whining about something you can adjust and compensate to yourself first? If it was blatantly OP I would have nothing to say. But its not. a VAST majority of players scream nerf anytime their shield deplete and they start taking hp damage, which is what this screams of.

 

our enemies ARE trying to kill us, like, for serious reals.

Do you understand the difference between "challenging" and "punishing"?

 

This should help:

 

The new osperys are not "challenging", they're "punishing". They don't give a warning, they have a GIANT AoE of shield ignoring damage, and they're fast with a TINY hitbox.

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I know this is Warframe, but I prefer to not rely on abilities. I love adding difficulty, but an enemy that hides behind a crate then dashes out when you walk past it, instantly killing most frames is not balanced. In my opinion, these new infested should not be the soul source of difficulty for infested. I think that these guys should be more in line with chargers (weaker in in larger numbers). The new infested moas and juggernaut should be the high damaged "oh poo" enemies.

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Do you understand the difference between "challenging" and "punishing"?

 

This should help:

 

The new osperys are not "challenging", they're "punishing". They don't give a warning, they have a GIANT AoE of shield ignoring damage, and they're fast with a TINY hitbox.

That video is great. I just recently started playing this game, and don't think i'll continue. I thought I was missing something when i encountered those flying infested guys and I see one swoosh past me from behind and then i'm dead. I couldn't figure out how to avoid these things that come from behind, when the screen is already covered with regular infested guys, and this really fast guy comes out of field of vision. The game is great except for those enemies. So I just decided to stop playing and go back to Team Fortress 2.

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Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

 

From my understanding of people's gripes with this is the same issue that several very articulate posters like Diablous and Notionphil have brought up previously about their worries about balance and game difficulty. Gimmicks to generate punishing difficulty, not difficulty to provide a challenge, you're treating them as if they are one and the same, they're not. 

 

Ignoring shields and armour, isn't difficulty and it isn't a challenge, it simply punishes anyone who isn't playing Valkyr, Rhino or doesn't have a Trinity in the team, while Nova still slows everything to a crawl with MP's slow. 

 

So what actually changed, what new thinking is involved? Nothing and none. 

 

Boltor Prime spam is still king, 4 to win still rules and Trinity, Rhino and Nova are still the go to for broken enemies which screw everyone over. 

 

What happened is exactly what several of us pointed out was a serious worry in Dev stream 30, low and behold, here is the issue that we brought up, just as predicted. I'd rethink what you just said before spouting self righteous crap regarding people complaining, just because they're complaining.

 

Things, like ignoring shields, large AoE area deniability, incredibly high proc chance/ rate, damage outside the visual cues *cough* napalms* cough* are bad design choices and poor decisions made on the devs part(not the first time either). Simply, it punishes any style of play/ frame which does not revolve around ignoring/ mitigating these aspects, and those powers and frames which do, they remain unaffected, as they were before. It didn't make the game harder, it just limited your options without providing a new one.  

well,i see so many people say  

lets see how it goes when them over 70lv~

ciuM3Hm.jpg?1

over six Osprey in this room,one Osprey HP over 10000~,i have equip MAX rank Antitoxin(45%)

1 dot hit 300~400 hp

as you see no way to run ,no place to hide

RHINO?IRON SKIN?just one toxin hit,you will see your RHINO NUDE and LAY ON FLOOR(hey,seems WARFRAME only can use Rhino?lol)

 

Some people think "who say nerf them just noob tenno,ths game is too easy"

Yeah RIGHT,but just under 30lv

but if you guys really say you are HARDCORE TENNO,i think your sight is in 50lv~over(maybe 100 lol)

try think what same happen in picture when you play Survival mode in 30:00~

Its other meaning that "funny challenge"(i really little bit enjoy it),but i dont think its good for WARFRAME

 

when i saw this Ospreys concept art in livestream ,i trust it will be awesome and funny ,but its not that thing

i don't care NERF or not,BUT its AI and action pattern must change(specially they let the game's Speed down- WARFRAME's one BIG importance)

Just power up the enemy's state not a clever choose for a game we know(so many good game Fault in this)

AND ITS NOT FUNNY,REALLY

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Doe's anyone remember that whole sword alone nonsense they were spouting a while back??? you know that big hyped idea they were pushing on us as the next big thing.

 

Then they go and systematically add layer after layer of new content that makes sword alone a total joke.

 

These new infested are just the latest addition to that travesty.

 

Anyway about this thread, I have noticed that whenever there is a reaction from the community to something blatantly wrong you get these troll threads that are just here to push peoples buttons.

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well,i see so many people say  

lets see how it goes when them over 70lv~

ciuM3Hm.jpg?1

over six Osprey in this room,one Osprey HP over 10000~,i have equip MAX rank Antitoxin(45%)

1 dot hit 300~400 hp

as you see no way to run ,no place to hide

RHINO?IRON SKIN?just one toxin hit,you will see your RHINO NUDE and LAY ON FLOOR(hey,seems WARFRAME only can use Rhino?lol)

 

Some people think "who say nerf them just noob tenno,ths game is too easy"

Yeah RIGHT,but just under 30lv

but if you guys really say you are HARDCORE TENNO,i think your sight is in 50lv~over(maybe 100 lol)

try think what same happen in picture when you play Survival mode in 30:00~

Its other meaning that "funny challenge"(i really little bit enjoy it),but i dont think its good for WARFRAME

 

when i saw this Ospreys concept art in livestream ,i trust it will be awesome and funny ,but its not that thing

i don't care NERF or not,BUT its AI and action pattern must change(specially they let the game's Speed down- WARFRAME's one BIG importance)

Just power up the enemy's state not a clever choose for a game we know(so many good game Fault in this)

AND ITS NOT FUNNY,REALLY

Depending on where they are when they expel gas... you can slide under it/wallrun by it/jump over it. I thought you guys loved parkour, why is it that you all turn into construction vehicles when there's a mob with aoe abilities?

Wtb most space ninjaisms, PST... also what happened to all you guys with your max range power builds? It helps if you kill stuff at 50m versus at 5m. Just saying

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all im hearing from posts like this is "I wanna go back to my Redirection mod to keep me safe in 100% of all scenarios even though Infested HAVE BEEN the poison faction since the game came out"

 

you guys got toxicity nerfed once before. How about YOU change this time instead of whining about something you can adjust and compensate to yourself first? If it was blatantly OP I would have nothing to say. But its not. a VAST majority of players scream nerf anytime their shield deplete and they start taking hp damage, which is what this screams of.

 

our enemies ARE trying to kill us, like, for serious reals.

 

 

If that's all you're hearing then you're either deaf or deliberately obtuse. I don't really know which, both are a rather damning indictment of the fact you understood nothing which the likes of Notionphil, Diablous myself, and dozens of others have brought up repeatedly in multiple threads.

 

But, frankly I'm not inclined to smash my head against a brick wall by explaining it to you, when the the explanation was patently clear in the first place.

Edited by (PS4)billy-d-squid
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"Hey guys, update 13 was called the Sword Alone and we made it so you can bring nothing but swords to missions for that awesome ninja aesthetic. Also, a melee only playstyle is now viable for most everything that's not certain bosses."

"Hey guys, update 13.8's here. All that stuff we told you about melee only runs being awesome and viable? Here's some flying oxium ospreys."

I hope you're complaining solely about it being 99% impossible to kill these guys with the sword alone, because if you can't dodge and kill an Oxium Osprey, you need to step up your game. I'm sure you're better than that though. As long as you aren't ambushed by these butts, you can kill them the same way you can an Oxium Osprey.

 

You must be better than that, really.

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I really haven't seen anything from anyone complaining about their 'punishing nature' come up with solutions that would alter this. 90% of people complain 'the toxic cloud kills me in 1 hit' and the other 10% complain that it can only be dealt with by certain frames that heavily reduce/ignore status damage.

 

The changes that have been suggested (Increase hitbox, give warnings before toxic gas deployment, etc) do not address these problems. These are band-aid fixes that are meaningless at high level.

 

I don't think there is an easy balance here, even if they needed it. Personally however I don't think they need balancing. they make high-level infested missions a nightmare instead of a cakewalk, and that's how it should be. Infested were arguably the easiest faction to deal with at high level because their 'melee only' policy meant that they are hard-countered by almost any form of CC. Now that has changed dramatically and we see Infested shift from arguably the easiest to arguably the hardest faction at high level, you're bound to see screams of 'nerf plz'. 

 

Of course, its still early days of the Mutalist-Osprey. Once people find the most efficient way to kill these without them posing much threat, the nerf cries will be much less audible.

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Depending on where they are when they expel gas... you can slide under it/wallrun by it/jump over it. I thought you guys loved parkour, why is it that you all turn into construction vehicles when there's a mob with aoe abilities?

You've already just stated right here this isn't an actual skill-counter play challenge.

Depending on where they expel a gas, as if we have to get lucky that they expel their AoE strip in a place that we can play around it. Which is not always the case, and if it does hit us from off screen because we have no solid indication of where they're aiming it's a massive chance of death regardless of toxin resistance and defensive mods. Level 15 mutators were halving my friends health with maxed out Vitality. At only level 15 a mod that most people don't even max out isn't enough to stop this from being a 2 shot. Most new players coming in by this point probably won't have an antitoxin, won't even know where or how to get it.

Although the toxin proc has to be toned down, its the AI that's the problem with these guys. They're too unpredictable for the amount and kind of damage they deal. They're part infested, not part drunk. They should dive bomb right towards the body of a Tenno with an audio cue, that would alert players to all scatter when one sounds off. And limit the full affect of their AoE to a more controlled Area. 

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I really haven't seen anything from anyone complaining about their 'punishing nature' come up with solutions that would alter this. 90% of people complain 'the toxic cloud kills me in 1 hit' and the other 10% complain that it can only be dealt with by certain frames that heavily reduce/ignore status damage.

 

My proposed solution:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/249651-infested-osprey-suggestion/

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Do you understand the difference between "challenging" and "punishing"?

 

This should help:

 

The new osperys are not "challenging", they're "punishing". They don't give a warning, they have a GIANT AoE of shield ignoring damage, and they're fast with a TINY hitbox.

 

It doesn't matter if it's punishing or not as long as there is something to scale it on, you can put a mob that can one shot you as long as he doesn't come out on each corridor.

I went to see and mutalist were spawning like normal on phobos and jupiter outbreak, I don't mind it for the event or dark sektors but I don't know about how it'll be for the new players.

 

Now about the mob itself, it has too much for what it is right now and how much it spawns, the hitbox in particular is strange if you add its movement and hp, scanning is close to a lottery.

The cloud is okay, also I read from another thread and tested it, the cloud doesn't work as a dot cloud but as trap thing, if you don't move you only get one tick from when the osprey charge or something like that.

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