All This Hate On Mutalist Osprey, Analysis On People Reactions To New Difficulty

[Vingle]

Depending on where they are when they expel gas... you can slide under it/wallrun by it/jump over it. I thought you guys loved parkour, why is it that you all turn into construction vehicles when there's a mob with aoe abilities?

Wtb most space ninjaisms, PST... also what happened to all you guys with your max range power builds? It helps if you kill stuff at 50m versus at 5m. Just saying

 

Some maps are small. You can't always snipe the ospreys from 50 goddamn meters because sometimes there's simply no room to do so. 

 

Depending on where they are when they expel gas... you can slide under it/wallrun by it/jump over it.

 

You're not even addressing the issue here. What if you can't walk out of it, like you are so helpfully suggesting? Do you just sit there and die? These clouds cover a pretty large area, and they extend up high enough that there's no way you're going to jump over it unless you were elevated in the first place. There's no grace period for you to get out before you get procced and die like termites in a house. There's no meaningful way for you to counter these things aside from "hurr durr shooting them at 50m before they kill you".

 

Bud, nothing in the game interact with you meaningfully in any way whatsoever at 50 meters. Of course you'll be safe, because none of those units ever got within combat range. If you want to play the game like that, fine, but it shouldn't force everyone to also play like that just because of one unit. 

 

The mutalist osprey has a lot of issues, even outside of the poison damage stuff. It gets stuck on everything, its hitbox is wonky, it hangs out on the opposite side of the map forcing everyone to hunt them down which also incidentally makes all defense waves take 3 minutes longer to finish.

 

The worst thing is that these things show up in pretty much all infested missions since they're counted as common. New players don't have many mods (if any) to counter these things. They probably don't have decently modded hitscan/AoE weapons to shoot the ospreys down, they probably don't have warframes that can heal, and they probably don't have a very grasp on the movement capabilities in warframe either, which means they're even more likely to go down from random toxin clouds they didn't notice coming because the ospreys don't have any audio or visual indicators at all. 

 

A lot of players are struggling with these things, and Newbies are most definitely getting the worst of it since they literally don't have access to a lot of the tools veterans have.

 

Get off your high horse and stop pretending that they can get around them with a little parkour or sniping, that all they need is some more "skill" to counter what is essentially an amalgamation of lazy programming and poor design choices.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Vingle

[DZ1JMeyer]

Depending on where they are when they expel gas... you can slide under it/wallrun by it/jump over it. I thought you guys loved parkour, why is it that you all turn into construction vehicles when there's a mob with aoe abilities?

Wtb most space ninjaisms, PST... also what happened to all you guys with your max range power builds? It helps if you kill stuff at 50m versus at 5m. Just saying

 

In addition to what's been said before (new tilesets being primarily cramped, close-quarters affairs makes taking Mutalists out at range rather difficult at times; AoE in said tight spaces makes avoidance variously incredibly difficult to an out-and-out non-option; specific enemies which make certain builds mandatory—or at the very least strongly recommended for non-masochists—when playing any mission against that faction generally being poor or at least flawed design; etc.), there's another elephant-in-the-room issue that seems to be ignored by this rationale: not everyone has a good internet connection. I can run solo missions just fine on the computer I'm currently using, but the combination of new tileset and lag from playing in a squad makes running event missions somewhat variable in fps, and thus makes aiming at these flying drunks with anything even somewhat tricky to use (say, Despair, or a Dread, or something like that) something of a chore. Not because my game is running too slowly, but because Mutalists tend to be surrounded by friends, I'll have a sudden lag-spike, and they'll have moved (the hit-box does not help with this, as I've gotten plenty of center-mass shots that did not hit).

 

Now, should DE cater exclusively to people in my position? No, of course not! But what you seem to be advocating is punishing individuals whom are not able to successfully evade AoE's taking up entire hallways (which may well happen irrespective of a persons' abilities if they are surrounded by enough infested, god knows that happens enough late in Derelict Survivals), are not in frames able to ignore it, don't wish to bring scatter/spread weapons, and/or have a poor enough connection that taking out Mutalists immediately is not a feasible option. 

 

Besides which, if you're really so desirous of a challenge that you feel you're not experiencing in normal infested missions (though I can't imagine that infested alerts or infestations out in the vicinity of Pluto are that rare), there's always Derelict Survivals. Do that for awhile, and see if you're still so worried about Mutalists being so nerfed at 30+ or 45+ minutes. :P

 

It doesn't matter if it's punishing or not as long as there is something to scale it on, you can put a mob that can one shot you as long as he doesn't come out on each corridor.

I went to see and mutalist were spawning like normal on phobos and jupiter outbreak, I don't mind it for the event or dark sektors but I don't know about how it'll be for the new players.

 

Now about the mob itself, it has too much for what it is right now and how much it spawns, the hitbox in particular is strange if you add its movement and hp, scanning is close to a lottery.

The cloud is okay, also I read from another thread and tested it, the cloud doesn't work as a dot cloud but as trap thing, if you don't move you only get one tick from when the osprey charge or something like that.

 

Agreed, though I'm personally more concerned about late-game Survivals, really. It's scary enough when the Ancients (whom have base 400hp) take a full Drakgoon or Soma magazine to go down, what about the (base 250hp) drunken-weaving Mutalist?

 

-snip-

Well said. +1

 

 

EDIT: And thanks to LukeAura for coming up with the proper descriptor for their movement. I had been trying to figure out why it seemed somewhat familiar...

Edited June 21, 2014 by DZ1JMeyer

[Zeful]

/shakes head... ppl seriously crying about ospreys... that have like 13hp each...

Where has the skill gone

Dude, I have a Phage with over 2000 DPS, it takes a couple of seconds of focus fire to kill these new ospreys. That's not "13hp" that's not even 1300hp. Hell, the only time I even die to the things is when they quite literally sneak up behind me or glitch through walls to put up their poison cloud.

 

But there's no way in hell I'm going to defend their design when a small change (Viral proc rather than toxin) would do a better job of making skill matter in fighting the faction as a whole.

[quan256]

Nothing worse than "killing before they move" is the only way to fight against an enemy.

Edited June 21, 2014 by quan256

[S5alad]

My only input is that yes, we're wining because it's hard and yes, it is too hard.  I think a safe compromise would be to keep the mutalisk difficult, but like it's Oxium Osprey predecessor, limit its poisonous cloud effects exclusively to its self-induced destruct sequence.  Oxium Ospreys don't just go around making everything explode, they have to sacrifice themselves to do so which offers some amount of balance in the midst of the hundreds of mobs Tenno have to fight off.  Make the Mutalisk comply to the same requirements, it can only cause a poisonous cloud of insta-kill(talking levels 100+) if it targets then beelines at its target the same way Oxium Ospreys do.

[taiiat]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/249354-these-new-ospreys-are-too-strong/#entry2892089

[xethier]

My only input is that yes, we're wining because it's hard and yes, it is too hard.  I think a safe compromise would be to keep the mutalisk difficult, but like it's Oxium Osprey predecessor, limit its poisonous cloud effects exclusively to its self-induced destruct sequence.  Oxium Ospreys don't just go around making everything explode, they have to sacrifice themselves to do so which offers some amount of balance in the midst of the hundreds of mobs Tenno have to fight off.  Make the Mutalisk comply to the same requirements, it can only cause a poisonous cloud of insta-kill(talking levels 100+) if it targets then beelines at its target the same way Oxium Ospreys do.

 

i think this is the best plan i've heard so far as a resolution to this. (and i'm a fan of them)

[notlamprey]

My only input is that yes, we're wining because it's hard and yes, it is too hard.  I think a safe compromise would be to keep the mutalisk difficult, but like it's Oxium Osprey predecessor, limit its poisonous cloud effects exclusively to its self-induced destruct sequence.  Oxium Ospreys don't just go around making everything explode, they have to sacrifice themselves to do so which offers some amount of balance in the midst of the hundreds of mobs Tenno have to fight off.  Make the Mutalisk comply to the same requirements, it can only cause a poisonous cloud of insta-kill(talking levels 100+) if it targets then beelines at its target the same way Oxium Ospreys do.

 

A vision I can get behind.

[Lunaticked]

People need to stop being bad at videogames.

[Mak_Gohae]

Just keep moving and upgrade your Sentinel weapons.

And since you are fighting the Infested you should equip weapons that have wide spread.

The first thing i did for these mission is grabbed my ignis when i popped in a did the starting few Hive ship missions alone. Then when i went into the group i noticed some other were doing the same. I also use the Drakgoon and Embolist.  Its the infested, they mostly charge at you in big numbers, why would you make it harder on yourself and equip weapons that only hit a small number of enemies.

[Voltyr]

Apparently thats too complicated for them.

Or maybe they're just using exclusively melee as a conscious playing style because that's an option that was toted by DE as being viable a while back, yet is now being ridiculed and dismissed for some reason.

Just saying, if you're saying "the sword alone" is completely fine in your game it's kind of a $&*^ move to, in a minor build update of the same major update version, include new enemies that not only are almost impossible to destroy in melee like most other flying enemies, but will also insta-kill some warframes. That's nothing short of ludicrous and belittling the players who are annoyed by this strikes me as unnecessarily haughty.

[notlamprey]

People need to stop being bad at videogames.

 

This "It's fine, learn to play" business is really getting old.

 

Just how far inside your own egos have you people crawled? There's a vast gulf between wanting to feel like you're good at a game and actually being good at a game.

 

The current design of Mutalist Ospreys negates a lot of actual skill - the ability to receive, encode and act upon information. The hitbox is still much too small. This is a problem with flying enemies in general, and it makes the game look hastily thrown together like an average school project game.

 

As other people have stated, the enemy is disproportionately lethal. There are issues with the visible and effective range of the Osprey's gas cloud, not to mention some seriously punishing consequences of "high proc rate plus high damage" as enemy level increases.

 

The L2P crowd would have us simply accept these things because they don't understand - and further, don't want to understand - the very real frustration that the rest of us are feeling.

 

I refuse to be browbeaten into compliance by lazy thinking. If we all adopted the "Game's fine, L2P" mentality, most (if not all) of the interesting and valuable feedback on these forums would simply go away.

 

I'm probably more than a little biased here, because I'm passionately opposed to this brand of ignorance/laziness/insensitivity. What good is having a brain and feelings if you never use them to learn anything? Looking only inwards and agreeing with yourself that "it's fine" is not an informed opinion. It's a tragedy.

 

Let's perform a simple exercise. If anyone has read or feels like reading at least the bulk of this thread, try and take note of the points brought up by the two main camps of thinking here. On one side, I see people giving specific feedback and intelligent suggestions for the purpose of improving an enemy (and, in turn, the game). On the other, there are people saying anyone who disagrees with them is bad.

 

Bleh.

 

 

[Vingle]

Just keep moving and upgrade your Sentinel weapons.

And since you are fighting the Infested you should equip weapons that have wide spread.

The first thing i did for these mission is grabbed my ignis when i popped in a did the starting few Hive ship missions alone. Then when i went into the group i noticed some other were doing the same. I also use the Drakgoon and Embolist.  Its the infested, they mostly charge at you in big numbers, why would you make it harder on yourself and equip weapons that only hit a small number of enemies.

 

We're talking about infested defence, not breeding grounds. Those game types are worlds apart. In breeding grounds you can just zoom through all the units clogging up the ship and snipe the tumors/hives. You don't actually have to deal with any of those units, because running is a perfectly valid (maybe even the preferred) strategy when you want to complete the mission in any reasonable time. 

 

In defence, you can't run; you sit there twiddling your thumbs waiting for those enemies to come to you so you can kill them and then you die because ospreys. We're not even talking about infested as a whole, just the ospreys since they're the only thing that actually poses a (admittedly massive) threat. 

 

To get past that, you recommend weapons that are wide spread, which I'm assuming you meant as shotguns + AoE. 

 

Using those weapons still solves nothing. The ospreys are still incredibly hard to hit with shotguns if you're even in range, and that's assuming you don't get dive bombed when you are in range. 

 

why would you make it harder on yourself and equip weapons that only hit a small number of enemies.

 

Why do we have to disregard all other weapons in the game just to win against infested? AoE weapons work against everything equally, so you can't really count them as a factor. And why should everyone be pigeon-holed into using those weapon types you recommend? What if they like using soma, or some other non-bullS#&$ weaponry that doesn't blow up everything in the screen? AoE weapons are the nuclear option in warframe, and I don't think it's justifiable bringing those out to fight infested when the only thing that was changed was the additional of a single unit. 

 

Embolist.

 

Because the ospreys (and company) are going to just sit there in the toxin cloud dying like flies, just like us skill-haemorrhaging warframe players. You try actually killing ospreys with a lolembolist and get back to us.

 

Take your time, because you'll need it. 

[Wojek]

There's probably a lot of whining going around, but I also see a lot of people that the Ospreys take "skill".

That's entirely laughable. This game has such an incredibly low skill ceiling and the ospreys didn't change that. Hell, they are not even "difficult".

They are mainly one thing:

Annoying.

 

All they did to me up till now was to turn every defense round they turn up end like this: everybody runs around looking for the osprey that got stuck somewhere. Whee, that needs so much skill, right?

Although I don't believe that they ever will become either interesting or challenging. Most of the annoyance in Warframe still comes from uninteractable knockdowns, energy drains and now direct hp damage.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Wojek

[NecronautMan]

The only thing that I think needs to be changed is the size of the hitbox and lowering the proc damage/chance a bit (and of course the path finding).

 

Other than that, I think the mutalist osprey's a fine addition (plus it actually makes the Antitoxin mods useful for once).

Edited June 22, 2014 by NecronautMan

[Verre]

Hey..

 

 

hey guys.

 

 

What If this is DE's way of stopping people from AFKing during infested defense missions? 

 

 

 

 

 

+1 to the new drones, I don't know why everyone else is complaining unless you are the type that wants an easier way to level your unranked things. There are mods, weapons.. frames of mass destruction that can destroy these things in a few hits. At least now, it takes a bit of thought on what you should take to an infested mission. That being said, I do feel a bit bad for the new players who don't have all the necessary things that can help with surviving infested missions.

[Verre]

The only thing that I think needs to be changed is the size of the hitbox 

 

I do agree with this. 

[Mak_Gohae]

 

We're talking about infested defence, not breeding grounds. Those game types are worlds apart. In breeding grounds you can just zoom through all the units clogging up the ship and snipe the tumors/hives. You don't actually have to deal with any of those units, because running is a perfectly valid (maybe even the preferred) strategy when you want to complete the mission in any reasonable time. 

 

In defence, you can't run; you sit there twiddling your thumbs waiting for those enemies to come to you so you can kill them and then you die because ospreys. We're not even talking about infested as a whole, just the ospreys since they're the only thing that actually poses a (admittedly massive) threat. 

 

 

 

What i said works in defense missions even better. 

If you keep moving, which doesnt meant ignore them as you run by, you are not going to get a huge cloud of poison in one area messing everyone up. This is the same tactic i used back when we had the old Toxic Ancients, i would have them target me then i would run away from everyone else so their cloud would not bother anyone. Staying on the pod in a defense mission is not the only tactic against the Infested in Defense missions.

 

 

To get past that, you recommend weapons that are wide spread, which I'm assuming you meant as shotguns + AoE. 

 

Using those weapons still solves nothing. The ospreys are still incredibly hard to hit with shotguns if you're even in range, and that's assuming you don't get dive bombed when you are in range.

 

I've done it with the Drakgoon, i never that tremendous trouble against them.

 

Why do we have to disregard all other weapons in the game just to win against infested? AoE weapons work against everything equally, so you can't really count them as a factor. And why should everyone be pigeon-holed into using those weapon types you recommend? What if they like using soma, or some other non-bullS#&$ weaponry that doesn't blow up everything in the screen? AoE weapons are the nuclear option in warframe, and I don't think it's justifiable bringing those out to fight infested when the only thing that was changed was the additional of a single unit.

 

Like i said, if you are having a hard time and the option is there to make it easier on yourself why are you making it harder on yourself? The game gives you the option to have different weapons....why is changing weapons a big deal?

 

I never understand this argument when it gets paraded around for mods as well. If you have the option to solve something and you dont want use then you have to accept your decision. This game gives you the ability to switch all sorts of thing mega quick so you can adapt... so why is adapting an issue?

 

 

Because the ospreys (and company) are going to just sit there in the toxin cloud dying like flies, just like us skill-haemorrhaging warframe players. You try actually killing ospreys with a lolembolist and get back to us.

 

Take your time, because you'll need it.

 

I am using the Embolist as my main now.

Really, folks, does the concept of run and gun need to be explained when it comes to whats the best way to play this game?

 

 

Edited June 22, 2014 by Mak_Gohae