Shield Bypassing Hp Damage - Unwanted

[lordhalo]

come on that's lame, only two damage types out of... how many? Grineer developed weapons to counter shields, corpus developed weapons to counter armor and finally infested has a mix of both. whats not to understand? shields do well against corpus armor does well against grineer infested needs a little of both. Not to hard.

[Stormandreas]

come on that's lame, only two damage types out of... how many? Grineer developed weapons to counter shields, corpus developed weapons to counter armor and finally infested has a mix of both. whats not to understand? shields do well against corpus armor does well against grineer infested needs a little of both. Not to hard.

Not to mention Tenno weapons often counter flesh... so infested.

[YashiroSora]

Never had much of an issue. When playing BG to the point my Rhino friend with 700~hp, 1k~ and a new iron skin, is 1-shotted by a charger, its a no-brainer you should be running around all the time(and not coptering randomly). If you are on the move, you shouldn't really get hit by the clouds. I never had an much issue with surviving, and i don't use tank mods, If you main Loki all the time, no frame is ever squishy to you, well thats if you get used to him.

[Talmora]

I never really notice toxic dmg that much unless I swapped out my rejuv aura mod on my Valkyr, yeah I have that aura slot on valkyr instead of bread/butter steel charge, I've found high armor and hp is a good not-full-proof-but-works counter to toxic and slash dmg. Squishy frames are gonna be squishy, even if you put defensive mods on them. Just become better, and learn to constantly move in an ever changing environment.

[Archwizard]

Secondly, the only Shield bypassing damage type is toxic

 

And Slash.

[Methanoid]

Secondly, the only Shield bypassing damage type is toxic.

and slash procs.

[TwiceDead]

Okay to be fair, Slash damage itself does not go through shields, it needs to proc before it starts dealing damage to health through the shields, and that's random. Toxin deals damage directly to health, whether it has procced or not, 100% of the time. 

[Methanoid]

The elitist answer is: "Just bring health restore packs!"

The noob answer is: "Give us all a self heal!"

 

how are health packs elitist?  their a commonly available consumable item everyone has access too.

 

we already have enough ways to self heal, rejuve aura, a trinity, team heal restore, heal restore (the self version that uses plants as ingredients) etc.

[Naftal]

So your answer to the problem is to only be allowed to use Rejuvenation as an aura?

Rejuvenation

Life Strike

Trinity/Nekros/Oberon/Valkyr

Health Restores (both team and instant full hp self restores)

[S7ORM]

I agree with storm.

[...everything else...]

I appreciate you agreeing with me, but I hadn't posted yet...

[LascarCapable]

Moved to a better section.

[jrkong]

I only skimmed through this, but it seems you don't really know how to play. For one, you're using Rhino for everything. Noob mistake. Yes, he's op as hell, but those who JUST play rhino for Iron Skin really don't know how to play.

Secondly, the only Shield bypassing damage type is toxic, so you need to get rid of those things. If you aren't paying attention, you WILL die. So if everything is hitting your heath, get better mods, and pay attention to whats happening around you.

LOL Rhino OP...a few months back saying this would have resulted in the community laughing at your stupidity. Oh how times change. Anyways before I start derailing the thread OP needs to learn how to pay attention to their surroundings and avoid toxic clouds more. The purpose of hazards are to impede/kill you. In other words, they're doing their job if you're ignorant of their existence. It's been an age old concern though that HP balls don't drop off of enemies normally. Also, proc caps have also been proposed before (though I have no idea why they haven't implemented it yet) so procs aren't an instant death sentence but DE hasn't done much in that regard in ages.

Edited June 23, 2014 by jrkong

[Methanoid]

Right. Go on then. Put your D regen aura on your V or - polarity frame.

 

forma your aura slot?

[SoulEchelon]

Ugh. Really? Really, people? *sigh* okay. I give up. I thought I'd never say this to anyone; especially when talking about PvE, but...

 

You all are a bunch of carebears.

 

Get better. Learn to adapt. You're getting hit with toxic too much? Mod against it. Grab health restores. Keep an eye out for infested ospreys. Kill them before anything else if possible. See how we have multiple tabs for mods? Use one of them to mod directly against Infested and Toxic (Though frankly, all I did to change my Ember's set up was to remove Redirection and put in Vitality).

 

Those green gases are extremely easy to see now that DE added those dark green wisps to it. Watch out for them. You see them, you stay away. Stop trying to rush through every damned thing and keep an eye out. I have YET to die from these toxic clouds...while using Ember, one of the lowest hp warframes available (who doesn't have invisibility to keep off agro, btw.) Why haven't I died? Because I understand these new enemies are a threat, and that I should be vigilant in taking them out.

 

I suggest you all stop crying about enemies using the same toxic proc as we do to them all the time, and learn to adapt.

Edited June 23, 2014 by SoulEchelon

[(PSN)JELLOMAN-]

Since the introduction of life strike I have never had a problem with keeping HP up, and even before that I used equilibrium.  It's just one mod on your melee that you can get on Venus.  Yeah you lose a little damage with it, but it takes the worries away from slash and toxin.

[taiiat]

 - i did not read anything in this thread before me, i had no interest in reading the same arguments i've seen a hundred times already.

 

 

- the primary issue is that things deal Damage to Health once in a while - however, few Frames have the capability to do any sort of Healing.

Health Orbs simply must drop from Enemies periodically. if it's normal for a Player to lose a bit of Health once in a while(which is absolutely the case), we need Health Orbs from time to time.

 

yes, Lockers do give Health Orbs sometimes, but those are not very useful in missions that will last longer than a couple minutes.

 

Health cannot be treated like a sacred thing, because it's used in gameplay too much.

 

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE USED FOR.

actually, it isn't. those are there if you have some sort of emergency, primarily.

 

however, yes, you could theoretically spend tons and tons of Resources in each Mission to make sure you can't possibly die.

 

so you may go right ahead, bind 'drop Heal Restore, Energy Restore, Shield Restore, Ammo Restore' to W.

 

 

clearly, that is the answer to everything. i think you've gotten too deep into that rut of games that have you rely on Healing Potions. some games are balanced around those Healing Potions, but most of them are not. 

using a Heal Restore in Warframe should normally not be necessary except for a really sticky situation.

 

gameplay should not be bound around 'did you bring enough magic potions'. Warframe isn't that kind of game. and what of that player that doesn't know he can craft any of those consumables because Warframe wouldn't ever tell him about them?

what about that player? he's draining out Health, without any way to regain it back, because the game doesn't have any methods to gain it back other than playing a specific few frames.

(Edit: actually, we can already see the issue in the very first Mission of the game. Enemies can Damage you, probably will Damage Health at some point, yet you have nothing. but the gameplay mechanics don't account for that, and Health Orbs are quite rare to find. especially for a new Player that will need them more because they don't really know what they are doing yet. one Health Orb from the odd Locker once or twice in the Mission isn't going to cut it when you have a significant amount of Enemies)

 

 

it's pretty much a given you'll eventually lose some Health. so that means that the game also needs to have some trickle sources of Health. and once upon a time Health Orbs covered that quite well, because Enemies would drop them once in a while. but now, i don't think they do at all. 

yet we have Toxin and Slash Effects, which are bound to happen from time to time. guaranteed losses of Health. a guaranteed loss requires a guaranteed opportunity to recover it. because that's gameplay.

 

 

hell, now that i've mentioned that - Eximi / Leaders should always drop a Health Orb upon dying, Trash Units in Boss fights should have a moderate Chance to drop a Health Orb upon dying, Heavy Units should have a moderate Chance to drop a Health Orb upon dying, and Trash Units should have a low Chance to drop a Health Orb upon dying.

that should be enough to have a few Health Orbs around in the event you need them provided you're using Resources efficiently, which Players should already be doing with Ammo and Energy.

 

 

 

 

now, ofcourse, Players should be avoiding Health Damage if possible by avoiding as much Damage as possible. but as i've mentioned a few times, eventually you WILL lose some. you're being shot at, it's only a matter of time before you do eventually get hit. which means that the game must have Healing as part of the mechanics for all Players. that does not require you to build Consumables before hand, because those are for surviving your own mistakes.

Edited June 23, 2014 by taiiat

[Methanoid]

taiiat, id like to think your argument against the supposed need to pop consumables all day is a joke, id also like to think players dont just stupidly stand in toxins and expect to be fine, if so then yeah your gonna need those consumables en mass, but if players are doing that, thats not the fault of anyone or anything but the player.

[Renegade343]

How about a rework of Toxic damage? I have already written a proposal for that, and will share it to this thread. 

 

Link: 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/249280-toxic-damage-rework/

[BloodArmoredApostle]

Noob mistake. Yes, he's op as hell

Your noob mistake for thinking Rhino is OP. My Frost Prime can last longer than most rhinos in any combat situation, and no Rhino isn't OP. His abilities are all useful and scale which is the word that is subjective is used "balanced". All his abilities are useful, as it stands many warframes abilities are taken out for another mod....because sadly, abilities aren't useful past a certain point. It isn't OP....get it straight..

[BloodArmoredApostle]

The shield is only there to give you some extra time to react to make a decision which includes you not dying. If you don't make that split-second decision count or fast enough, you will die. You are not supposed to completely rely on the shields to keep you alive, or else there wouldn't be any point to the HP/Armor system in the game. 

 

Ironically, all the squishy frames become the most viable when you start meeting enemies 40+ since by that point HP and shield levels really don't matter much, because that's where movement and clever play starts counting. 

Take your twitch and die mechanics to Planetside 2 and Battlefield 4 please. Not needed in a game were it isn't even part of core gameplay.

[(PSN)Zeylon]

Take your twitch and die mechanics to Planetside 2 and Battlefield 4 please. Not needed in a game were it isn't even part of core gameplay.

 

I agree.  

I got the impression from the inherent differences in frame and the fact there are specific mods to boost shields, health, recharge, etc. -- that whether you try to protect yourself by boosting shield-tanking or health-tanking is meant to be a choice that imparts variety to the customization of your frame.  If you choose to "dual-tank", then you're sacrificing mod slots, and choosing either type of tanking has certain drawbacks:

 

Shield tanking:

-restores itself

-when depleted, you don't die

-is negatively impacted by cold 

-doesn't benefit from armor

-has different resists than health

-has mods to increase recharge rate, among other things

 

Health tanking:

-benefits from armor

-when depleted, you die

-not impacted by temperature

-has mods that impact its resists (laser resistance, etc. don't impact shields)

-doesn't restore itself over time

 

Different frames have different health/shield/armor stats which lend them to a certain a tanking-style (in theory anyway).  If you instead make an argument that shields are just there to give "extra time to react" and "you're not supposed to rely on shields" then you're disregarded all the effort that went into making some sort of variety/choice system to how you tank in this game.

 

That said, I have to agree with the OP to some degree that abilities that bypass shields have basically the same effect.  If you provide the choice to shield tank, it should be viable, and shield bypassing effects work against it being viable.  If you force the issue of using a frame that has heals, a healing aura, using health mods, etc. - you effectively remove that branch from being viable.  It would be fine if, once shields are depleted, then a toxin can do DoT to the frame even if the shields start regenerating.  

 

 

It's worth mentioning that the nightmare mode that literally gives you zero shields has a similar effect though.  That seems like a choice-restricting design decision as well that devalues shield tanking.  

 

I also find the "have a trinity" "use lifestrike" or "use rejuvenation" sorts of responses incredibly elitist and ignorant.  After a certain point in the game, there's a fair chance that you can secure a trinity frame.  However, getting things like rejuvenation or lifestrike have a large random or late-game quality to them that suggests, "I'm super-elite and have every mod/frame in the game, why don't you?  It obviously solves everything, noob." 

Your solution to a problem that impacts the playerbase as a whole shouldn't be contingent on something that pops up in alerts, dark sector rewards, or boss-farming.

Edited June 24, 2014 by (PS4)Zeylon

[TwiceDead]

Take your twitch and die mechanics to Planetside 2 and Battlefield 4 please. Not needed in a game were it isn't even part of core gameplay.

Oh that's funny... 

 

I decide myself whether or not I want to treat the game as a twitch shooter, and it certainly doesn't come down to your or anyone elses decision. It certainly doesn't hurt me or make me perform worse, in fact the reason I perform better than most is probably thanks to this.

Then again I am curious, what decides if twitch reactions is part of the core gameplay here...? Or rather, why can't I treat it as a twitch shooter? What's stopping me? You? 

Please, explain. 

Edited June 24, 2014 by TwiceDead

[(PSN)Budukai_Man]

Valkyr would solve all your problems mate. Cuz she's like a honey badger

[Taranis49]

Ugh. Really? Really, people? *sigh* okay. I give up. I thought I'd never say this to anyone; especially when talking about PvE, but...

 

You all are a bunch of carebears.

 

Get better. Learn to adapt. You're getting hit with toxic too much? Mod against it. Grab health restores. Keep an eye out for infested ospreys. Kill them before anything else if possible. See how we have multiple tabs for mods? Use one of them to mod directly against Infested and Toxic (Though frankly, all I did to change my Ember's set up was to remove Redirection and put in Vitality).

 

Those green gases are extremely easy to see now that DE added those dark green wisps to it. Watch out for them. You see them, you stay away. Stop trying to rush through every damned thing and keep an eye out. I have YET to die from these toxic clouds...while using Ember, one of the lowest hp warframes available (who doesn't have invisibility to keep off agro, btw.) Why haven't I died? Because I understand these new enemies are a threat, and that I should be vigilant in taking them out.

 

I suggest you all stop crying about enemies using the same toxic proc as we do to them all the time, and learn to adapt.

 

Problem being, as I've pointed out elsewhere, they can actually be unavoidable in confined spaces like those found in the new Infested ship or the old Corpus ship tilesets. Particularly when they're hanging out above a hallway door and can't be engaged until you go through it or they're camping an elevator. Broken lights, arc traps and Mag Eximi suffer from the same issue - guys tend to mistake the difference between "punishing" and "challenging" when it comes to stuff like this. Hint, if it can't be avoided by player skill, it's not actually challenging the player. Further, gear checks ain't challenge, they're simply the removal of it.

 

And to head this off at the pass, I've yet to be downed by one myself. That doesn't prevent me from seeing that the unit has issues.

[Archistopheles]

-has mods that impact its resists (laser resistance, etc. don't impact shields)

 

Are you sure? I was quite certain that Fire-resistance was being applied to my shields when I fought Napalms.