Shield Bypassing Hp Damage - Unwanted

[Cpl_Facehugger]

 

Get better. Learn to adapt. You're getting hit with toxic too much? Mod against it. Grab health restores.

I don't really see how "getting better" equals "use otherwise useless mods like antitoxin or spam health restores like they're going out of style." There's not much skill in that. There's a tiny bit of skill in dodging or shooting them first (prioritizing targets), but that kind of falls by the wayside when you go up an elevator only to find yourself surrounded by a half dozen of them. There's no real way to evade such a situation through skill.

 

These new ospreys are the most terrible enemies since nervos, and they need a major revamp to not suck.

 

I suggest you all stop crying about enemies using the same toxic proc as we do to them all the time, and learn to adapt.

 

I really don't like the implication of this argument because it misses the point of video game AI.

Video game AI does not exist to defeat the player. If it did, the devs could very easily make them rack up headshots all the time with no chance to retaliate. They don't, because video game AI is meant to die in an entertaining fashion. They are meant to fail.

 

It seems like a lot of players have this idea that the game should somehow be fair for the AI, but that's ridiculous.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

I'm not a fan of shield penetrating damage because there's little practical way to pepare for it as the game stands now.

 

There are plenty of frames slanted, by design, toward having high shields and using powers. Modding them for mediocre HP and the loss of their gimmick really just leaves players with an ineffective frame.

 

Moreso, bleed and toxin procs through shields create a defeatist sort of attitude. I don't like saying "Well, I've got a bleed proc. Be dying shortly." to my teammates.

 

I love games that require me to fully engage and plan accordingly that some filthy casuals are going to describe as punishing. Punishing is good. Going into the Valley of Defilement? Bring some lotuses or lose your souls. A player should be punished for going in unprepared. However, the Demon's Souls example employs preventitive/cure options that don't require throwing out what made your build effective and unique.

 

Blessing should cure status effects when it heals. You know you're going to a stage with a lot of poison or against the grineer with their higher slash damage? Trinity is a good choice. Maybe there should be some consumable gear items that grant a timed toxin resistance or a quick-clot that could be used from the gear menu to eliminate some of these. While it would be fumbling with a menu, it wouldn't be backing off from combat and just waiting to die so someone can pick you up. It would reward players for preparation and intelligence.

 

 

AI is meant to die in an entertaining fashion. They are meant to fail.

 

I disagree with this very strongly. A game made with the obligation to allow the player to succeed is masturbatory. AI should be defeating players that go in with this very opinion, that believe that they are owed success or that the AI is there just to put on a show. I don't want a lip service challenge. Enemies that make a bunch of noise and wave their arms but aren't a threat are like getting a participation trophy when you sat on the bench the whole game. If the enemies are designed to die, then you have accomplished nothing beyond operation of the game.

 

Enemies designed to defeat the player that also provide the opportunity to be defeated themselves are what make a game enjoyable. I've spent many an hour on warframe builder trying to come up with the best builds I can and I want to spend time planning how to succeed in game modes and against enemies. Designing an enemy with the obligation to let me pass after putting up a pantomime challenge invalidates all of that.

Edited June 24, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[DarkRinnegan]

I think he's just angry that he cant beat them....

[Twilight053]

You can't even go to wave 30 of Grineer without properly preparing a team.

 

Please come back later to complain.

[(PSN)Zeylon]

Are you sure? I was quite certain that Fire-resistance was being applied to my shields when I fought Napalms.

 

Honestly?  No. I was under the impression the resist mods in general were all health-specific.  And I saw this reference to someone testing it:

 

"I just tried standing in a fire hazard (self destructing ship) and this did not reduce the damage to shields but did appear to stack with armour once down to health.  Rhino took 18 health damage per tick with base armour (-60%) and Flame Repellent 1 (-4%)."

 

That was back in August, and I just take their word for it.  I'd heard Diamond Skin was health specific, and antitoxin obviously is at the moment (since it skips shields).  Insulation is health specific, but warm coat has a different impact on shields that doesn't involve reducing freeze damage per se.  There's a lack of recent comments on the wiki about Lightning Rod, and I have no idea what the deal with it is aside from people not bothering with it.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I disagree with this very strongly. A game made with the obligation to allow the player to succeed is masturbatory. AI should be defeating players that go in with this very opinion, that believe that they are owed success or that the AI is there just to put on a show. I don't want a lip service challenge. Enemies that make a bunch of noise and wave their arms but aren't a threat are like getting a participation trophy when you sat on the bench the whole game. If the enemies are designed to die, then you have accomplished nothing beyond operation of the game.

 

Enemies designed to defeat the player that also provide the opportunity to be defeated themselves are what make a game enjoyable. I've spent many an hour on warframe builder trying to come up with the best builds I can and I want to spend time planning how to succeed in game modes and against enemies. Designing an enemy with the obligation to let me pass after putting up a pantomime challenge invalidates all of that.

 

When I say "meant to fail", I mean "fail in a fun fashion."

 

It's no fun if, say, you pop your head out of cover and get whacked by a 9999 damage headshot wielded by an aimbot, right? An actual "fair" fight isn't fun either - enemies greatly outnumber players in most games, so 'fairness' in terms of things like stats tends to end up with players getting punched in the face.

 

An enemy designed to defeat the player would be, say, prenerf stalker. He ignored warframe abilities, hit with a 1k dread, and could teleport if you tried to run. He also had so much health that defeating him was functionally impossible. Players demanded he get nerfed because "enemies designed to defeat players" are not fun. The enemies have to be designed to lose to the players, but not to lose too easily.

[Phatose]

Shield bypassing attacks need to stay.

 

We've already seen what happens without it, in great detail, for the game's entire history pre-Dmg 2.0.  Regeneration on shields trumps everything health offers, badly, and everyone simply stacks shields.  This isn't conjecture - we saw it. 

 

It may be worthwhile to make healing a bit more available, but not especially easy, simply to ensure these kind of threats serve their purpose as a counterweight to the huge advantage of regeneration.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

When I say "meant to fail", I mean "fail in a fun fashion."

 

It's no fun if, say, you pop your head out of cover and get whacked by a 9999 damage headshot wielded by an aimbot, right? An actual "fair" fight isn't fun either - enemies greatly outnumber players in most games, so 'fairness' in terms of things like stats tends to end up with players getting punched in the face.

 

An enemy designed to defeat the player would be, say, prenerf stalker. He ignored warframe abilities, hit with a 1k dread, and could teleport if you tried to run. He also had so much health that defeating him was functionally impossible. Players demanded he get nerfed because "enemies designed to defeat players" are not fun. The enemies have to be designed to lose to the players, but not to lose too easily.

 

I may be able to agree. I much prefer they be skewed well towards the "not easily" side of that. I believe the tedium that many players say they feel about the game is because it does not engage them properly. Enemies that require people to wake up and play, rather than just direct their dps sprayers in a direction are the way to do that.

 

I think the oxium osprey is an excellent example. Unlike other corpus units it had little shield and high health, and it appeared to be armored as well (though it turned out to just need electrical like a normal corpus robot). Due to its behavior, you didn't want to deal a small amount of damage without being able to follow up. Nicking it and backing off would set it up for the kamikaze attack. On the other hand, a secondary modded to handle the health an armor made a great compliment when oxium farming because it could account for a players building for standard corpus shields on their primary. That alone took more awareness than tower survivals that I've gone through, no joke, half asleep and nodding off and still been successful.

 

I recall, when those were first introduced, my friends and I were having some issues fighting them because we were treating them like regular corpus. Shield polarize was basically useless, so we came back on the next run with a new plan and were successful. It didn't involve reinventing the wheel, but we did talk to each other and make a plan, which is more than I can say for most goals in Warframe. It was because we ran into something were the normal tactics and behaviors didn't work. It's the same reason we like nightmare mode so much. We had to plan because it was so easy to fail, even if the price in that situation wasn't a death.

Edited June 24, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[Liminal]

Secondly, the only Shield bypassing damage type is toxic

No, bleed wears you down as well.

[Mak_Gohae]

Mod for health people, it's not that hard.

Start by one player equipping Rejuvenation and putting on some vitality. That works wonder if you, know you, prioritize enemies and actually evade to keep your self out of trouble.

[Archistopheles]

Mod for health people, it's not that hard.

Start by one player equipping Rejuvenation and putting on some vitality. That works wonder if you, know you, prioritize enemies and actually evade to keep your self out of trouble.

 

Put yourself in the shoes of a Solo Mag, and you'll gain new insight into this.

[Mak_Gohae]

Put yourself in the shoes of a Solo Mag, and you'll gain new insight into this.

 

I didnt say it was going to be easy for everyone.

If you decided to go solo you need to prepare to help yourself as much as possible. If you are not going to do that then it going to be harder and harder.

[Viverim]

I think  too many people are focused on the Osprey and not the direct health damage.  Remember, in the pipeline are a HOST of enemies that the design team has said will bypass shields (ie, toxic).  So, you won't just have one enemy to deal with.  You'll have several.  Who do you prioritize?  The three Osprey or the Juggernaut?  And while you are trying to down them (all of which can take a large amount of damage) what are you doing about the dozen or so chargers swarming all over you?

 

I'm not a big fan of direct health damage because health does not regenerate.  If your shields are down, you can hide in a closet and take a breather.  not terribly heroic, and definitely not "ubre space ninja", but it lets you get back into the game.  If you find that you are down to your last few health points, however, there is little you can do about the situation.  (And no, do not cite the various mods as a fix for this.  Not everyone will have Life Strike, et al, and if you think they will then you haven't been playing this game with its EXTREMELY random drops...)

 

My solution would be one of two things. 

1 - either severely reduce damage from direct to health damage, possibly only making it an option once shields have gone down.

2 - give all frames an ability to regenerate health at a slow rate.  Perhaps the same as a basic Rejuvenation aura that is unmodded.  The Rejuvenation aura could then stack with this for its own beneficial effects, and a warframe at low health has an option to recover that doesn't depend on (a) Oberon or Trinity being in the group or (b) mods/equipment which they might not have access to for whatever reason.

 

Keep in mind that there are quite a number of people who play in solo mode.  These should be considered as well as super-elite-veteran players.

[KirukaChan]

When I started doing the event, I was rolling Ember to steamroll the Infested with fire, but it didn't take me long to realize that Trinity was the way to go, especially since I had a pal to pick up some of the slack on offense. The turrets made great Energy Vampire targets, and I modded for minimal Power Duration so I could cast Blessing whenever I needed to. The Mutalist Ospreys really threw me for a loop. Even with Trinity, though, when the enemy levels got higher, there was a point where my pal had gone AFK (he was sitting back at the start of the level while I was running through it alone). I was being chased into a dead end (I hadn't really gotten used to the new tileset yet) by a group including an energy drain Eximus, and I was legitimately panicking. Even had to use some Gear items. It was good fun.

 

It was a nice change of pace. It's been a whole since I've run into a mission where I actually had to switch up from my initial strategy.

[Marthrym]

So many moronic "Go get/buy skill" posts.. So many arrogant "people" looking down on anyone that doesn't think like them... It's worse than the poison these pesky drones fart all over the place... What happened to you community?

Edited June 25, 2014 by Marthrym

[Telapoopy]

I do think that heath orbs need a buff. Considering they only drop from crates and lockers, unless one's using a nekros or oberon, you have to go out of the way to get them. I shouldn't have to go loot frenzy on every locker and crate on the map just because I got into a tough fight at one point. What ends up happening is that people just don't go to find health orbs in loot because they don't help enough. Health orbs should restore health by a percent of total health, but its effect would be a continuous regeneration rather than instant incrementation. Desecrate and reckoning would have reduced drop rates of health orbs to compensate for the buff.

[DiabolusUrsus]

It depresses me every time I see people on the forums rallying behind the keyword "challenge." 

 

Sure, the OP may be framed in such a way that it doesn't exactly convey the most insightful feedback but the immediate response to it was disgraceful. 
 

"I don't play this game very often, and check back on it every few updates."

"You must not know how to play."

 

You think...? Considering the OP has missed at least one or two major updates, I'd say he/she isn't quite up-to-date with the latest "meta" builds. The problem here, though, isn't that the OP isn't up to speed with the latest "meta." The problem is that whoever is in charge of balance seems more content to beat players over the head with enemy mechanics that bypass conventional defenses rather than actually curtail the rampant power-creep and miscellaneous damage output that made such drastic anti-Tenno countermeasures necessary. 

 

Enemies that bypass shields instantaneously coupled with a virtually nonexistent health recovery system is a mangled and hackneyed excuse for a challenge. Why? Because it's either a punishing and merciless threat (to newer players, etc.) or completely trivial. (To people who have a large stock of health restores, play as a healer, or have some sort of Warframe ability that allows them to ignore the damage completely.) It's completely bi-polar. You're either saying "oh F*** oh F*** oh F*** I'm dying and have no way of saving myself," or "Meh. *Press hotkey*" That's a really shoddy challenge. 

 

Health restores? I went for two or three months easy before even learning of their existence back around Update 7. The new-player tutorial resources don't exactly make them completely obvious, either, and they're located in a relatively secluded section of the market. 

 

Rejuvenation? Yeah, because everyone who doesn't have that definitely wants to wait an indefinite amount of time before it shows up on alert when and where they can play. 

 

Trinity/Oberon/Partial-healer? Yeah, because everyone has those Warframes and enjoys playing as them every time they fight a specific faction. 

 

Point being, yes, there are ways of coping with bleed and poison damage. No, none of those ways constitute overcoming a "challenge." Warframe is supposed to be an action game, but it currently plays like a trading card game. Every "challenge" it has to offer falls to a gear-check and nothing more. 

 

You guys are so fixated on a challenge, yet you kick, scream, and cry every time anyone even so much as mentions touching your ability to dish out tens of thousands of damage per second. You write off notions of "balance" carrying even the remotest possibility of contributing something useful to a PvE game. God forbid the ability to vaporize entire battalions in a split-second before they can do more than fire off a shot might have something to do with you not feeling challenged. Look, I get that we're supposed to feel like warrior-deity badasses, but I don't get how feeling like a warrior-deity badass means being able to insta-gib everything on the map. Can't we feel like warrior-deity badasses if we take sixty seconds instead of two? Especially if those enemies we just slaughtered are fighting back with a decent chance of success? 

 

I may be alone here, but when I imagine a satisfying challenge in Warframe I imagine being able to rely on my reflexes, control dexterity, and on-the-fly strategic decision-making skills to pull through against unfavorable odds. Not picking my cards right in the pre-game mission lobby and hoping the UI saves my most recent changes. (Especially when considering the fact that whether or not new players even have the right cards to begin with is a complete tossup.) 

[Phatose]

If your definition of challenge doesn't include load out concerns, then I'm not interested.  Warframe has RPG roots as deep as it's action roots.  Picking the right cards should be every bit as important as using them.  Twitch reflexes should matter - but they should not be able to save you with any reliability from poor setup.  Not should proper setup be able to save you from terrible reflexes.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Phatose

[Landwalrus]

"LOL ROFLZORENCOPTER THROUGH THE MAP IM OP FAST"

 

Hey, that is amphiscopter now.

[Phaenur]

If your definition of challenge doesn't include load out concerns, then I'm not interested.  Warframe has RPG roots as deep as it's action roots.  Picking the right cards should be every bit as important as using them.  Twitch reflexes should matter - but they should not be able to save you with any reliability from poor setup.  Not should proper setup be able to save you from terrible reflexes.

 

I partially agree with you, but those are some really big "shoulds" in there.  The biggest problem with it is the randomness inherent in Warframe's system.  With gear checks in other RPGs, you can get there, fail, revive more or less as much as you need to, and figure out how much resistance or heal/damage-per-second or whatever you need to build for.  Then, you can go out and...build for it, and there's generally a lot of wiggle room for exactly how much you can stack or what the most efficient skill combinations are or whatever, but most importantly you can practice, because encounters will be the same every time.  At most there's randomized damage or critical chances or variable AI patterns, but whatever mechanic you're guarding against won't change.

 

Warframe makes absolutely no guarantees.  You can put on Antitoxin against Infested and find that they decided not to spawn poison units that round, or knockdown resist against Grineer with nothing more annoying than heavies.  You can't adapt when you're downed, either, you're stuck with that build until you finish, quit, or die, and if you redesign yourself for the next time around things will not be the same - even differences in the individuals tiles can make a massive difference, especially against Infested.  You can learn a few things, like spawn patterns for specific nodes, and that's it, and even then there may be far more or far less of whatever you're having trouble with.

 

On top of that, there are still a lot of missing resistances.  There's no way to counter or resist magnetic effects, for example, and nothing to mitigate physical damage types or procs (remember, Bleed is on the OP's hit list).  And even if mods like that were introduced, you'd inevitably see people screaming about "bandaid" fixes, and unless Shock Eximi were fixed to be counterable through some method without the mod they'd be right.

 

And that brings up yet another point.  Nearly every RPG provides "good enough" gear and guaranteed skill points through questing, leveling, completing achievements, using your abilities, whatever.  And on top of that, it's pretty much impossible to not have gear in every slot.  It might not be the optimal gear, or even the right gear, but it's always there.  Warframe puts absolutely everything except one 'frame, three pathetic weapons, and Redirection behind an RNG wall of some sort.  Generally two, actually - rare resources for weapons and warframes is the easy one, even with Argon thrown into the mix.  Mods need to drop, then need fusion fodder and heavy credits to rank up to a point where they're worth the investment.  Then there's another RNG with potato alerts and forma drops...yeah, it's a mess.

 

Even with endgame content, which I feel safe in saying Breeding Grounds is close to being, the designers have absolutely no guarantees that their players will have what's "needed" for that sort of content, and unlike other gear checks there's absolutely no workaround.  You grind for it and pray the RNG favors you, and all the while you generally end up dodging attacks from the exact same thing you're trying to defend yourself against.  WoW-style MMOs have gear crafting, while other RPGs might toss "passable" or RNG-proofed gear or party members at you to let you actually continue the game.  Warframe really has no equivalent, so people have to fall back on the action mechanics to get by, and when enemies bypass some of our core elements in a way that's difficult or even impossible to counter (Shock Eximi, mutospreys before the hitbox, flight path, and cloud visibility fixes) then we naturally get mad, since the RPG doesn't live up to its half of the bargain.

[Phatose]

While I'm certainly not going to claim we don't have RNG issues, tossing out the RPG portions to counter that is tossing out the baby with the bathwater.

[DiabolusUrsus]

If your definition of challenge doesn't include load out concerns, then I'm not interested.  Warframe has RPG roots as deep as it's action roots.  Picking the right cards should be every bit as important as using them.  Twitch reflexes should matter - but they should not be able to save you with any reliability from poor setup.  Not should proper setup be able to save you from terrible reflexes.

 

I didn't say that it didn't include loadout concerns. I said that loadouts should not be the definitive factor in determining success or failure. Even in most old-school turn-based RPGs, it is still possible to beat most bosses without the ideal gear loadout, provided you're at least somewhere in the ballpark: your character isn't too far underleveled, and you're not trying to take an un-upgraded Copper Sword into an encounter with an end-game boss. Furthermore, in RPGs that are almost entirely dependent on the quality of the player's equipment, there's another factor that frequently gets swept under the rug: Player stats increase with level. A Warframe's Health/Shield/Energy pool increases with rank, but not to anywhere near the degree to which an RPG character's do. In RPG's, players can grind to get stronger until they can match the local enemies. There is a direct time investment-to-player-advantage ratio, which is what makes grinding bearable in those games. Warframe offers no such guarantee. It's all up to random chance. Walking what seems like ten feet west on the map in Dragon Quest Warrior may introduce monsters that start massacring your party members, but you at least have access to a shop where you can buy that oh-so-useful steel sword. Such is not the case here, and I don't think that there is all that much need for a change. 

 

Which is why... I think that the majority of the player's odds should be left in their own hands, on what you label "twitch reflexes." Not the entirety, mind you; mods should still factor into tipping the odds in a player's favor, but not to the extreme extent they do now. Right now, going unmodded (or even less-than-optimally modded, for that matter) is equivalent to walking into a boss fight not wearing armor and unarmed. That wouldn't be so much of a problem, except mods are distributed entirely by RNG. So if you really need that Eversing armor piece to beat Legion in the Underground Cemetery, tough luck. That sounds kinda unfair to me. 

 

That's my reason for laughing (or rather sighing and shaking my head) at everyone who comes onto the forums to say "Git gud, scrub, use Antitoxin."  You're right that reflexes shouldn't save you from improper setups. You're also right that proper setups shouldn't save you from terrible reflexes. The problem is that proper setups do save you from terrible reflexes, and good reflexes can't save you from anything but the best setups. All I'm saying is that the game needs to be set up in such a way that players can save themselves with halfway-decent loadouts, which would kind of invalidate  most of the "Use this mod/Warframe/Weapon" retorts to observations of poorly implemented mechanics. 

 

Lastly, from what I hear, Warframe does indeed have some RPG roots... that were last seen pre-U7. I'm gonna argue that its RPG elements were lost as soon as they implemented Mods 2.0. The current modding system is not an RPG system. In an RPG players have access to vital skill points at all times through an intrinsic progression. Customization systems that depend on random drops are always supplementary and largely optional features, never independent core gameplay structures. The current mod system is a perk/buff system gone haywire. What we need is viable base Warframe/Weapon stats with mods providing much smaller but still noteworthy benefits. 

 

Mods should still matter. Just, not as much as they currently do. Warframe may have RPG elements, but those don't count for anything if they continue to be as poorly implemented as they currently are. 

Edited June 25, 2014 by DiabolusUrsus

[Mak_Gohae]

People suggest mods because that's the easiest way to alleviate the issue. Not everyone needs to equip every single  mod suggested to counter X thing. The problem is not the mod the problem are folks that havent figured out a way to counter these things. You are supposed to solve the problems with what tools you have, you are not supposed to be provided with all the solutions to every possible angle.

 

The easiest way to solve this issue is killing the things before it attacks. Some people had problem with that and what was the solution? Equip a weapons with a wider spread so targeting is easier. If they dont choose to use this solution.... that's their problem. The game gives you the ability to have all sorts of weapons and builds, you should use them. I never had problems with these thing because i popped in first with the Ignis and i was burning everything in front. I didnt even see the cloud attack until i started pugging, i soloed the first few missions, in the rush no one would kill anything which would end in a couple people dying cause they gave those things a chance to attack.

[Phatose]

I didn't say that it didn't include loadout concerns. I said that loadouts should not be the definitive factor in determining success or failure. Even in most old-school turn-based RPGs, it is still possible to beat most bosses without the ideal gear loadout, provided you're at least somewhere in the ballpark: your character isn't too far underleveled, and you're not trying to take an un-upgraded Copper Sword into an encounter with an end-game boss. Furthermore, in RPGs that are almost entirely dependent on the quality of the player's equipment, there's another factor that frequently gets swept under the rug: Player stats increase with level. A Warframe's Health/Shield/Energy pool increases with rank, but not to anywhere near the degree to which an RPG character's do. In RPG's, players can grind to get stronger until they can match the local enemies. There is a direct time investment-to-player-advantage ratio, which is what makes grinding bearable in those games. Warframe offers no such guarantee. It's all up to random chance. Walking what seems like ten feet west on the map in Dragon Quest Warrior may introduce monsters that start massacring your party members, but you at least have access to a shop where you can buy that oh-so-useful steel sword. Such is not the case here, and I don't think that there is all that much need for a change. 

 

Which is why... I think that the majority of the player's odds should be left in their own hands, on what you label "twitch reflexes." Not the entirety, mind you; mods should still factor into tipping the odds in a player's favor, but not to the extreme extent they do now. Right now, going unmodded (or even less-than-optimally modded, for that matter) is equivalent to walking into a boss fight not wearing armor and unarmed. That wouldn't be so much of a problem, except mods are distributed entirely by RNG. So if you really need that Eversing armor piece to beat Legion in the Underground Cemetery, tough luck. That sounds kinda unfair to me. 

 

That's my reason for laughing (or rather sighing and shaking my head) at everyone who comes onto the forums to say "Git gud, scrub, use Antitoxin."  You're right that reflexes shouldn't save you from improper setups. You're also right that proper setups shouldn't save you from terrible reflexes. The problem is that proper setups do save you from terrible reflexes, and good reflexes can't save you from anything but the best setups. All I'm saying is that the game needs to be set up in such a way that players can save themselves with halfway-decent loadouts, which would kind of invalidate  most of the "Use this mod/Warframe/Weapon" retorts to observations of poorly implemented mechanics. 

 

Lastly, from what I hear, Warframe does indeed have some RPG roots... that were last seen pre-U7. I'm gonna argue that its RPG elements were lost as soon as they implemented Mods 2.0. The current modding system is not an RPG system. In an RPG players have access to vital skill points at all times through an intrinsic progression. Customization systems that depend on random drops are always supplementary and largely optional features, never independent core gameplay structures. The current mod system is a perk/buff system gone haywire. What we need is viable base Warframe/Weapon stats with mods providing much smaller but still noteworthy benefits. 

 

Mods should still matter. Just, not as much as they currently do. Warframe may have RPG elements, but those don't count for anything if they continue to be as poorly implemented as they currently are. 

 

I think you're making a number of mistakes in regards to what RPGs are.  Rogue-likes are a subtype of RPG, and they're basically random.  Go back to the roots - D&D, grandfather of basically all RPGs, you weren't actually guaranteed much of anything.  Even something as basic as hitpoints was RNG, as were your significant stats.  Equipment was entirely up to the whim of the DM - and if he was following the DM's guide, loot was random too. 

 

Heavy dependence on RNG is not something anti-RPG.  It's practically the root of the system. 

 

 

While a heavier focus on action elements is desirable in my book,  nothing you've said changes my stance on this.  These complaints are not coming from people who do not have the resources to counter these attacks.  They're coming from people who simply are not using those resources. 

[Me.Greedy]

i'm not scared... keep trying to kill me DE...