Shield Bypassing Hp Damage - Unwanted

[Phatose]

If the game is intended to favor only high health frames, then they should just hand everyone a Rhino or a Zephyr and toss all of the low health frames out of the game completely.

 

And yet if we change this we're going to end up right back where we were dmg 1.0 - favoring shields to the extent that health based frames are pointless, as are healing abilities.

 

We need a solution that allows survival for shield based frames without trivializing healers and health based frames.  I'm not seeing any that accomplish that.

[Viverim]

And yet if we change this we're going to end up right back where we were dmg 1.0 - favoring shields to the extent that health based frames are pointless, as are healing abilities.

 

We need a solution that allows survival for shield based frames without trivializing healers and health based frames.  I'm not seeing any that accomplish that.

Okay, so explain to me why a basic health regen, in the order of 1 or 2 points of health per second, with a small delay (say, 3 seconds or so) after taking damage trivializes Health based frames?  Health based frames that aren't Zephyr have higher armor values, don't they?  So damage which gets through to their health gets reduced by armor.  This is an advantage for them.  Lower shields, yes, but more capacity to take damage to health.  High shield frames tend to have lighter armor, so toxic/bleed that gets through would do more damage to their lower health pools.

 

And consider that if you treat this like a trait, different frames would regenerate at different levels.  Zephyr with 1,050 health might regen 5 points per second, while Mag with 500 might only get back 2. (just tossing random numbers out there.  balance would have to be thought out in more than just a handful of seconds)

 

I mean... Rejuvenation is in the game currently, isn't it?  Taking the mod would buff this natural regeneration to higher levels, so it wouldn't replace it, especially as the Aura effects everyone else while each frame would regenerate at their own pre-determined rate.

[Naftal]

The only shield bypassing damage that isn't very easy to dodge with game play choices are random slash procs but I haven't seen a dangerously big slash proc in a long time, playing any content.

[Mak_Gohae]

The problem is that you're looking at it from a player's point of view - as an in-game challenge to be overcome.

 

Look at it from a game designer's point of view - Is random damage that bipasses shielding fair for players when there is no reliable way of recovering health?

 

Is it fair at level 1?

 

Is it fair at level 25?

 

Is it fair at level 50?

 

I can see arguments being made for top-tier of play, but you're still killing players by random procs, and not for making poor decisions.

 

Dude, you have several tools at your disposal to NOT be hit by the attacks as well as tools that lessen the impact of the attack.

You have your ability to move, your weapons, your frame abilities, your mods, what more do you want?

The game is trying to kill you and your job is to survive.

 

 

Counter with skill? Nope, counter with right frame (tanky one) and Rejuvenation.

It's S#&$ty gamedesign.

 

??? So your ability to move, your guns, and your frame powers are not counters to this unit?

What is your definition of skill?

They are the only flying units for the Infested, they should be dead the second they appear on screen cause they are super easy to spot.

When you see one run towards it and position yourself so when it perform the charge it does it in a location that is not going to bother anyone.

They telegraph the charge, it's super easy to control the enemy.

All of the infested are super easy to control because all they do in run at you. All you have to do to avoid 90% of the infested units is to strafe because they dont react as fast as you.

[FalsePride]

the fact that they bypass sheild is the only part that makes no sense to me, ide be fine with these damge types if they proc'ed only after your sheilds were depleted and i wouldnt mind the bleeding/toxic effect lingering as the sheilds recharge.

 

reasons beyond me..

 

"your wearing body armor you got shot hows it holding up?"

 

"fine. its still intact."

 

"good let's kee-"

 

"im bleeding under it tho"

-downed-

 

"..what?"

Edited June 25, 2014 by FalsePride

[Otaiken]

Dude, you have several tools at your disposal to NOT be hit by the attacks as well as tools that lessen the impact of the attack.

You have your ability to move, your weapons, your frame abilities, your mods, what more do you want?

The game is trying to kill you and your job is to survive.

 

 

??? So your ability to move, your guns, and your frame powers are not counters to this unit?

What is your definition of skill?

They are the only flying units for the Infested, they should be dead the second they appear on screen cause they are super easy to spot.

When you see one run towards it and position yourself so when it perform the charge it does it in a location that is not going to bother anyone.

They telegraph the charge, it's super easy to control the enemy.

All of the infested are super easy to control because all they do in run at you. All you have to do to avoid 90% of the infested units is to strafe because they dont react as fast as you.

 

First of all.. you can't avoid hitscan Grineer slash proc, especially when there's a lot of them (which tends to be the case). And lastly.. it's RNG based.. which is bad, less skill and more of "I wonder if I get less procs than I'm able to survive this mission". Cause you WILL get hit. It's annoying having to worry about death by attrition... really annoying.

 

Second, the fact that mods are all multiplicative leads to significant balance problems here. Low HP frames tend to have 15 armor and little health. So equipping HP mod gives them very slight boost and equipping armor mod is completely useless (again 80% boost to 15 armor is laughable). While tanky frames get a huge boost out of these mods.. up to a point that those things don't bother them at all.

 

Unfortunately with the large amount of HP bypass damage in this game tanky frames have no difficulty, while squishy frames can get frustrating fast while having no reliable way to counter with mods. And don't talk about consumables.. no one likes to stand in one place for a significant time to recover some HP... unless it's defence mission, it's beyond annoying.

 

So why should I trouble with squishy frames, when there's plenty of frames that don't suffer from this. Again, not a matter of difficulty.. rather than annoyance. Might as well not be annoyed and go with tankier frame. Shields mean very little.

 

As for avoidance... it's more the issue of "one mistake and you're out". Plenty of enemies spawn and often behind you. You take down 3 Disruptors.. only to get blindsided by the remaining one... then the Osprey does a little fly-by and you're dead.... one chance... one mistake. You can't counter this.. with tankier frames you just get up no problem. Stomp/Hysteria/Whatever... maybe little refill with Life Strike and you're on your way... while the squishier frame is burning revive.

 

 

OR you use the whole "floor is lava" approach with infested and stand on a box. Now that is how you best this faction... they are absolutely helpless agains slightly taller boxes. Though it's neither challenging or fun this way, but at least you're safe.

 

The problem is that the game's design SIGNIFICANTLY favors specific classes and gear. And that is a bad design. Enemies use cheap tactics along with numbers and HP (lazy difficulty design) which are best countered by equally cheap tactics (stand on a box!).

Edited June 25, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[Archistopheles]

Dude, you have several tools at your disposal to NOT be hit by the attacks as well as tools that lessen the impact of the attack.

You have your ability to move, your weapons, your frame abilities, your mods, what more do you want?

The game is trying to kill you and your job is to survive.

 

 

I'm not saying the game is too hard. I'm saying the design could be better.

[Phatose]

Okay, so explain to me why a basic health regen, in the order of 1 or 2 points of health per second, with a small delay (say, 3 seconds or so) after taking damage trivializes Health based frames?  Health based frames that aren't Zephyr have higher armor values, don't they?  So damage which gets through to their health gets reduced by armor.  This is an advantage for them.  Lower shields, yes, but more capacity to take damage to health.  High shield frames tend to have lighter armor, so toxic/bleed that gets through would do more damage to their lower health pools.

 

And consider that if you treat this like a trait, different frames would regenerate at different levels.  Zephyr with 1,050 health might regen 5 points per second, while Mag with 500 might only get back 2. (just tossing random numbers out there.  balance would have to be thought out in more than just a handful of seconds)

 

I mean... Rejuvenation is in the game currently, isn't it?  Taking the mod would buff this natural regeneration to higher levels, so it wouldn't replace it, especially as the Aura effects everyone else while each frame would regenerate at their own pre-determined rate.

 

Would a regen that slow actually change the situation for the shield frames though?  A 2hp per second regen is not going to change a bleed or toxic proc from being a death sentence for a shield frame, and we'll be right back here again.

 

The problem is that the game's design SIGNIFICANTLY favors specific classes and gear. And that is a bad design.

 

Yes, yes it is.  Which is why we have bleed and toxic procs - because it was bad design back when the game significantly favored shield based frames.  And why any solution that amounts to "Shield protect you" is valueless, since it pushes us right back to the pre-damage 2.0 bad design.

[Otaiken]

Yes, yes it is.  Which is why we have bleed and toxic procs - because it was bad design back when the game significantly favored shield based frames.  And why any solution that amounts to "Shield protect you" is valueless, since it pushes us right back to the pre-damage 2.0 bad design.

 

Well, that is Warframe in a nutshell. Completely binary.. no middle ground to be seen anywhere. It's either absolutely trivial or frustrating... I can't remember when was the last time the game was both fun and challenging. The same thing with shields... either shields all the way or HP+armor all the way. No middle ground to be seen there either.

 

But I don't think that shield bypassing damage is answer to that. Also, remember that many of the frames are balanced for the old damage 1.0. So now that shield tanking is less of an option, suddenly whole host of frames is unbalanced. And at the rate we're getting balance chages, it's better to try and change the system rather than every individual frame.

 

Also, shields are somewhat balanced by the fact that they always take the same damage and they take even more damage from certain factions and attacks (impact damage DOES make quite a difference). Imho, slash shouldn't bypass shields at all and there has to be better way for frames to regain health. And give it a rest with the effing knockdown already.. and things might get a little better.

 

Shields are essentially buffer for damage. Shield based frames should be rewarded for behaving smartly and avoiding having their shields broken.. when that happens you can punish them with the bleed proc.. you can even make it really hurt, since it's the player's fault. Right now it's pure chance... never should damage be based on chance.

 

That's the way it should be.. the shield guy darting from cover to cover relying on shields and shield regen to protect him. While the HP+armor tank just stomps through everything relying on damage mitigation and HP regen. Right now shield frames are forced to build the same way the tank does just to have a chance... and that is simply stupid.

Edited June 25, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[Mak_Gohae]

First of all.. you can't avoid hitscan Grineer slash proc, especially when there's a lot of them (which tends to be the case). And lastly.. it's RNG based.. which is bad, less skill and more of "I wonder if I get less procs than I'm able to survive this mission". Cause you WILL get hit. It's annoying having to worry about death by attrition... really annoying.

 

 

??? Yes, after you get hit you cant avoid the damage... that's common knowledge.

And RNG doesnt it make it good? Cause it means that you can get hit without worrying about it.

I dunno but i dont sit there wondering if im going to get hit with a proc, i just play the game and do my best to avoid damage. If i get hit with a proc the next thing on my mind is taking it easy for the next 8 second to make sure i dont get hit with another.

 

Second, the fact that mods are all multiplicative leads to significant balance problems here. Low HP frames tend to have 15 armor and little health. So equipping HP mod gives them very slight boost and equipping armor mod is completely useless (again 80% boost to 15 armor is laughable). While tanky frames get a huge boost out of these mods.. up to a point that those things don't bother them at all.

 

The only frames with less than the standard 300 at max, Mag and Loki, both have 65 armor.  So all frames with 15 armor have 300 HP max and unless there is some other stat that prevents them from gaining health like the normal frame with 300 HP... you dont really have a point here when it comes to vitality. But, yes, armor is not cool with these folks.

 

Unfortunately with the large amount of HP bypass damage in this game tanky frames have no difficulty, while squishy frames can get frustrating fast while having no reliable way to counter with mods. And don't talk about consumables.. no one likes to stand in one place for a significant time to recover some HP... unless it's defence mission, it's beyond annoying.

 

Large amount? There's slash, toxin proc, and melee damage off the top of my head. Are there others?

And if you dont want to use health restores that's on you, if you are "annoyed" it doesnt change the fact that a tool has been provided to you. Would the health restores staying on you make them less "annoying"?

 

So why should I trouble with squishy frames, when there's plenty of frames that don't suffer from this. Again, not a matter of difficulty.. rather than annoyance. Might as well not be annoyed and go with tankier frame. Shields mean very little.

 

Again, if you are "annoyed" that's on you. These frame OBVIOUSLY cannot be played in the same way as other type of frames and require different tactics. If you dont wish to do this then there is little to be done. This probably the reason why there is a wide variety of frame, so everyone can have their play style.

 

As for avoidance... it's more the issue of "one mistake and you're out".

 

At stupid high ranks, yes, but so what?

At high rank this game become Super Mario Bros. and you have 2 hits... so what?

You never played a game like this?

You are not supposed to get to the kill screen... people actually did this during this event and DE fixed that.

 

Plenty of enemies spawn and often behind you. You take down 3 Disruptors.. only to get blindsided by the remaining one... then the Osprey does a little fly-by and you're dead.... one chance... one mistake. You can't counter this.. with tankier frames you just get up no problem. Stomp/Hysteria/Whatever... maybe little refill with Life Strike and you're on your way... while the squishier frame is burning revive.

 

You can equip one of the two enemy detection mods if you are having trouble being attacked from the back.

When i play infested i do not stop moving because this faction is melee-only, meaning that at whatever angle they are coming they are going to get to close range to hit me. So if i keep moving the chances of being hit by melee lessen tremendously because the enemies will always attack the spot i was at when they launched their attack and if i am not there when the attack lands it means i will not get hit.

 

Rule 1 for fighting the Infested. Body moving, body, body, moving. Keep moving. It doesnt matter the mission you are on just keep moving. Technically this rules applies to all factions because they cannot target as fast as you move but since the other factions stay at range and shoot it means that you can stay stationary and angle yourself to not get hit while being able to hit them.

 

OR you use the whole "floor is lava" approach with infested and stand on a box. Now that is how you best this faction... they are absolutely helpless agains slightly taller boxes. Though it's neither challenging or fun this way, but at least you're safe.

 

Oh yeah, this as well. I guess this is easy than simply strafing around.

I do use this with rocket weapons because since they are melee it means that it's likely that a rocket will blow up close to me.

 

The problem is that the game's design SIGNIFICANTLY favors specific classes and gear. And that is a bad design. Enemies use cheap tactics along with numbers and HP (lazy difficulty design) which are best countered by equally cheap tactics (stand on a box!).

 

No, the game has certain things that make certain situations easier. This is standard game design. If you want an easier time go with this, if you want a bit more challenge go with that. This is why at the starting screen when picking frames Ex is described as being better for beginners while Loki is is for advanced players. 

 

Come on, we have all seen this character selection screen before, right?

 

 

 

 

With some characters is going to be harder than others so the choice is yours.

[Lost_Cartographer]

Slash procs are a there to eventually whittle down your frame if you get too confident in your shield tanking everything.  They're an equalizer.  Get used to it.  Without them, shields would become a dominant defense again because all other forms of shield ignoring attacks are completely and easily avoidable.

 

Eviscerators have slow as hell projectiles that bleed hard, but they're meant to.  You can side step them while scoped from 10m out, and they produce a distinctive sound when fired, so it's not like you'll never know they're coming unless you opt to blare crappy music while mindlessly shooting Grineer with your redirection mod as your only line of defense.

 

Infested ospreys produce clouds of death and decay, but besides their lack of transparency, are completely avoidable by NOT walking into them and keeping distance from ospreys to begin with... like One does with ALL infested (except those confident in their melee prowess.)  Coincidentally, this cloud has turned into an effective anti-rusher method, no?

 

Soon, we'll have infested that spit bile that lingers around, dealing toxic damage to those that stand in the puddle.

 

Dying isn't evidence that something is broken, except maybe in the case of the assassins like Stalker, Harvester, and the big 3 (you're either equipped to handle them quickly, or you're going to die quickly.)

[Otaiken]

SNIP

 

So... what exactly are the advantages to playing a squishy frame? There's no ROGUE or MAGE class in Warframe. No Warframe balances its squishines by CC or Damage. Tanky frame with good weapon > squishy frame with the same weapons. The same in melee... there's no high risk high reward melee specialist. Abilities either wipe everything even when tanky frames use them.. or are useless since they don't do enough damage even when "caster" frames use them. Again.. completely binary.

 

And those annoyances are examples of bad game design. That's why they are annoying. So... you are supposed to move constantly against Infested.. JEEZ never thought of that. It's not like radar is gonna help me magically see the ancient spawned behind me when I'm tied up killing his three friends rigth the hell NOW. Also, Infested... faction with most direct to HP damage... which are countered by movement... and the solution to the HP damage? Item which MAKES YOU STATIONARY. Great advice as always Mak. Stand on a box! Great game design there, has ninja written all over it.

 

Oh, you could say that Loki gives up defence for damage in invis. Except the one ability that gives him the most reward ALSO REMOVES THE MOST RISK. It's completely backwards.

 

So yeah... I'm moving around when fighting infested... but I do that with all frames. The difference being that when I happen to make a mistake some of the frames don't punish me as much for it. That would be fine if I got some kind of edge out of playing those more punishing frames... but I don't.

 

Also, DISCLAIMER I never really fight enemies above 50-60.. so leave that elitist BS out of this discussion. I'm not a min-maxer, I would like to have some middle ground between trivial and punishing. BTW I solo a lot.. and when there's 40 enemies and you're the sole target of all of them it's damn hard not to get blindsided. I sure hope you don't base your "just move around" on co-op play.. as it's pretty trivial there.

Edited June 25, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[TenshuYuusha]

??? Yes, after you get hit you cant avoid the damage... that's common knowledge.

And RNG doesnt it make it good? Cause it means that you can get hit without worrying about it.

I dunno but i dont sit there wondering if im going to get hit with a proc, i just play the game and do my best to avoid damage. If i get hit with a proc the next thing on my mind is taking it easy for the next 8 second to make sure i dont get hit with another.

 

 

 

The only frames with less than the standard 300 at max, Mag and Loki, both have 65 armor.  So all frames with 15 armor have 300 HP max and unless there is some other stat that prevents them from gaining health like the normal frame with 300 HP... you dont really have a point here when it comes to vitality. But, yes, armor is not cool with these folks.

 

 

 

Large amount? There's slash, toxin proc, and melee damage off the top of my head. Are there others?

And if you dont want to use health restores that's on you, if you are "annoyed" it doesnt change the fact that a tool has been provided to you. Would the health restores staying on you make them less "annoying"?

 

 

 

Again, if you are "annoyed" that's on you. These frame OBVIOUSLY cannot be played in the same way as other type of frames and require different tactics. If you dont wish to do this then there is little to be done. This probably the reason why there is a wide variety of frame, so everyone can have their play style.

 

 

 

At stupid high ranks, yes, but so what?

At high rank this game become Super Mario Bros. and you have 2 hits... so what?

You never played a game like this?

You are not supposed to get to the kill screen... people actually did this during this event and DE fixed that.

 

 

 

You can equip one of the two enemy detection mods if you are having trouble being attacked from the back.

When i play infested i do not stop moving because this faction is melee-only, meaning that at whatever angle they are coming they are going to get to close range to hit me. So if i keep moving the chances of being hit by melee lessen tremendously because the enemies will always attack the spot i was at when they launched their attack and if i am not there when the attack lands it means i will not get hit.

 

Rule 1 for fighting the Infested. Body moving, body, body, moving. Keep moving. It doesnt matter the mission you are on just keep moving. Technically this rules applies to all factions because they cannot target as fast as you move but since the other factions stay at range and shoot it means that you can stay stationary and angle yourself to not get hit while being able to hit them.

 

 

 

Oh yeah, this as well. I guess this is easy than simply strafing around.

I do use this with rocket weapons because since they are melee it means that it's likely that a rocket will blow up close to me.

 

 

 

No, the game has certain things that make certain situations easier. This is standard game design. If you want an easier time go with this, if you want a bit more challenge go with that. This is why at the starting screen when picking frames Ex is described as being better for beginners while Loki is is for advanced players. 

 

Come on, we have all seen this character selection screen before, right?

 

 

 

 

With some characters is going to be harder than others so the choice is yours.

I love you for bringing up these snapshots <3

Also when the f was Maki in Final Fight 1?

[Phatose]

Well, that is Warframe in a nutshell. Completely binary.. no middle ground to be seen anywhere. It's either absolutely trivial or frustrating... I can't remember when was the last time the game was both fun and challenging. The same thing with shields... either shields all the way or HP+armor all the way. No middle ground to be seen there either.

 

But I don't think that shield bypassing damage is answer to that. Also, remember that many of the frames are balanced for the old damage 1.0. So now that shield tanking is less of an option, suddenly whole host of frames is unbalanced. And at the rate we're getting balance chages, it's better to try and change the system rather than every individual frame.

 

Also, shields are somewhat balanced by the fact that they always take the same damage and they take even more damage from certain factions and attacks (impact damage DOES make quite a difference). Imho, slash shouldn't bypass shields at all and there has to be better way for frames to regain health. And give it a rest with the effing knockdown already.. and things might get a little better.

 

Shields are essentially buffer for damage. Shield based frames should be rewarded for behaving smartly and avoiding having their shields broken.. when that happens you can punish them with the bleed proc.. you can even make it really hurt, since it's the player's fault. Right now it's pure chance... never should damage be based on chance.

 

That's the way it should be.. the shield guy darting from cover to cover relying on shields and shield regen to protect him. While the HP+armor tank just stomps through everything relying on damage mitigation and HP regen. Right now shield frames are forced to build the same way the tank does just to have a chance... and that is simply stupid.

 

We have already seen that doesn't actually work - through all of damage 1.0.  Anything strong enough to break a shield frame's shield was going to kill them in no time flat once the shield went down.  It's a simple question of magnitude.

 

This would need to go far beyond a change to slash procs.  You'd need to retune all shield frames to drastically reduce their shield - actually force them to flit from cover to cover, and not just slap on redirection and 'flit' in 30 second intervals. 

[Otaiken]

We have already seen that doesn't actually work - through all of damage 1.0.  Anything strong enough to break a shield frame's shield was going to kill them in no time flat once the shield went down.  It's a simple question of magnitude.

 

This would need to go far beyond a change to slash procs.  You'd need to retune all shield frames to drastically reduce their shield - actually force them to flit from cover to cover, and not just slap on redirection and 'flit' in 30 second intervals. 

 

That still happens though. On squishy frames once your shields are down you're dead. How does having attacks that go THROUGH the shield helps? Shields go down pretty fast... you won't survive for 30 seconds exposed with 1k shields from lvl 20 upwards. At least with a decent number of enemies around, especially Grineer.

 

The randomness of the slash proc doesn't force you into cover. You have no control over it. Sure, you can reduce exposure.. but in the end it's still simply too unpredictable. Also, I'm not against reducing shields and increasing shield recharge across the board.

 

Taking cover... recharging shields and leave only to be instantly hit by slash proc is not challenging. Unless you want to sit there taking pot shots at enemies... in which case you should really go play Mass Effect.

Edited June 25, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[Phatose]

That still happens though. On squishy frames once your shields are down you're dead. How does having attacks that go THROUGH the shield helps? Shields go down pretty fast... you won't survive for 30 seconds exposed with 1k shields from lvl 20 upwards. At least with a decent number of enemies around, especially Grineer.

 

It helps because it means your best move is not, in 100% of all situations, to increase your shields.  Level 1, level 20, level60, doesn't matter.  Without those procs, your survivability is always greater if you increase your shields then if you take any other option.  That is a huge problem, it's why shield stacking was all you ever saw in Dmg 1.0, and it's why we'll be right back there if you simply change the procs so that shields protect against them.

 

So let's not do that.

 

I propose that slash damage will not damage health through shields until shield are down.  But, it disables shield regeneration entirely for it's duration, and against shields it last triple normal length. 

[Otaiken]

It helps because it means your best move is not, in 100% of all situations, to increase your shields.  Level 1, level 20, level60, doesn't matter.  Without those procs, your survivability is always greater if you increase your shields then if you take any other option.  That is a huge problem, it's why shield stacking was all you ever saw in Dmg 1.0, and it's why we'll be right back there if you simply change the procs so that shields protect against them.

 

So let's not do that.

 

I propose that slash damage will not damage health through shields until shield are down.  But, it disables shield regeneration entirely for it's duration, and against shields it last triple normal length. 

 

That could work, as long as it would be affected by shield recharge mods, giving them more purpose.

 

I think that a lot could be solved by giving dodge roll invul frames (or CC resist) btw. It's pretty silly that you can't dodge knock down for example... you just get hit mid roll. I don't really have a problem with toxic damage by itself that much... I have problem with it being on a faction that has the most CC in the entire game. Everything can knock you down.. and it's very easy to get blindsided. Combine that with the toxic and you have a problem. Making every non-tank frame one knock down away from death.

Edited June 25, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[Chroia]

Put yourself in the shoes of a Solo Mag, and you'll gain new insight into this.

This.

 

I recently rolled a new character to see if my experience with Mag was better as a clean slate.

I'd initially picked Loki and was unimpressed by Mag when I finally got her.

It was. I actually quite like her, in certain situations (read: Low level defense, or vs. Corpus, with pimped out Shield Polarize), now. But that's not the point.

 

All was well and good, progressing through Mercury and Venus (with a companion, because gl soloing that otherwise) to Earth.

Where I walk smack-dab into an ongoing Infestation.

 

And oh, those Mutaliskts...

 

I had available a Rank 1 Vitality and a rank 0 Redirection on my rank 6 Mag. To go with my (iirc) 90/180 or so HP/shield.

They pretty much killed me from full in 1 proc.

Got to the point that I'd just hit 1 as soon as I saw one of those (*&@#% ^%*@(*%ing Ospreys, because between my lack of HP, the unclear edge of the (thankfully visible) poison cloud and their janky hitboxes (which I saw might've been fixed last hotfix); it was that or die.

 

 

Okay, I thought. Maybe this is just a newbie thing, since Infested aren't standard fare.

So.

Was doing a ~24 Infested mission with my rank 30 Ember.

Built for speed (Rush, Quick Rest, Natural Talent) rather than tanking, guess what? Toxin proc? Certain death.

With a maxed Antitoxin (-45% damage), I was taking ~25 hp per tic.

8 tics.

How much HP does Ember have at rank 30?

 

 

So yeah, I can waste (opportunity cost) a mod slot  (and 5 points) for a mod that won't even effectively combat the toxin damage/proc.

Or I can stick Life Strike on my melee.

Because lord knows that hitting stuff in the face is exactly where Ember wants to be.

Or I can put on a Regeneration aura which A) doesn't fit polarity (and suuure, I could forma my polarity slot just for this one critter...) and B) won't save me from dying to the proc anyway...

 

Or I can just spam auto-targetting AoE from as far as I frikkin' can.

 

 

Gee, I wonder which to choose...

 

 

 

So yeah, saying "man up and adapt you pansies" is so very helpful.

I can't shoot them to death, what with the fact that visual hits don't register (read: janky hitbox), leading them is hard (for me, at least) with any weapon with noticeable projectile travel, since they completely ignore momentum when moving, (you know, like any other Osprey,) and I need to land upwards of 15 hits to kill one, due to having a mk-1 Braton and no Serration (or really much of anything useful else, either).

(And: in before "So go to the market and buy a better gun!!11!1"

Oh yeah? What gun is so drastically better in this scenario that can be bought and made by a MR 2 character?)

 

 

/rant

Edited June 25, 2014 by Chroia

[Gigaus]

Also, if you get hit by Disruptor magnetic proc, you just failed against the infested and will be punished for that failure.

 

Magnetic Leader-- And Toxic ones-- Auto proc by proximity now guys......That means, if one gets within a certain range of you you're going to get procced regardless how much you 'dodge'. The only response to that is to kill they guy before it gets to you, but they innately have damage resistence so that doesn't happen......THIS is why a lot of people run Rhino, because there's S#&amp;&#036; you just can't 'skill' your way out of.

 

 

But if I make the mistake of getting hit by that very easily dodged attack, I expect the punishment of not being able to use my energy for a while.

 

There are plenty of solutions to shield bypassing damage in form of mods, abilities and gameplay choices. If you don't want to use those solutions it's your choice.

 

Again, Mag and Tox on the leaders auto proc by proxmity, have for quite a while. It's not so 'easy' to 'dodge' a moving AoE, when you're stuck to one area...Ask any Grinner fighting Ember.

 

And...Those aren't solutions; Those are bandades.....No, wait, using Rhino's Iron Skin mostly counters all that, so that's the one solution; The one solution a lot of you guys are bashing, despite your arguments all being wrong...Numerically wrong at that.  Mods, give you a minor resistence to toxic and bleed proc-- It does nothing against lasers though. They don't 100% negate shield bypass damage though, do they? And abilities?...What other abilities in the game other than Rhino's Iron Skin negate shield bypass?....Trinity's Blessing doesn't anymore, because the low level players had a S#&amp;&#036;fit about her being an actual healer....No buff, self or group, gives you resistance, let alone immunity to shield bypass.....So what abilities? And again, some of these procs are AoE and mobile....Your only game play choice there is run away and hope you have a weapon to snipe them with. 

 

Everything scales, if scaling is a problem then people would be flipping out about every type of damage.

But they are not, why? This is the real question here.

 

 

 

The game doesnt require you to do anything. But it does provide tool to help you if you are having some difficulty. If you dont want to use those tools then it's up to you to figure out a solution for what you have. I dont run shields most of the time i play this game so it's up to me to not get his as often. The game has the ability to lets you switch stuff on the fly, if you dont want to use it you cant blame the game.

 

No, actually, everything doesn't scale smart one....other procs, like Puncture, Impact, Radiation, Magnetic....None of those scale; They have set values....Toxic, Slash, and Fire procs scale, and to the point that you NEED resistance mods AND steel fiber on key frames to not get 100+ to 200+ per tick.....On any frame that isn't Frost, Rhino, Syran, or Valkur....The best you can do is reduce damage by 31% with maxed Steel Fiber...WOOOOOOOOW, so much of nothing...

 

And for the record, Tox, Fire, and Slash procs, on enemies, scale twice over...the percent of the base damage done, AND the base damage itself increase with level.....so enemies at 20 do something [don't qoute me on the numbers] 10% base damage at 100....and 25 enemies do 20% at 200....biiiiiiig difference there.

 

And I'm sorry, you must not have been playing long, or just dip in and out....This game does require you to have specific S#&amp;&#036; every now and then. The devs balance around the idea that everyone has everything in the game-- Every weapon, frame, mod, everything. As a result, they balance around the requirement that you have X weapon/frame/mod installed to deal with this issue....And, where in the game can you switch things on the fly?....Where in a mission can you get to your loadlout screen, and switch your weapons, or mods, or even the frame?....Care to tell me-- tell us where you can do that?

[Mak_Gohae]

So... what exactly are the advantages to playing a squishy frame?

 

They all have more energy which means more casting of abilities since the bonuses to energy are far greater.

 

 

 

There's no ROGUE or MAGE class in Warframe. No Warframe balances its squishines by CC or Damage.

 

What do you mean? All casters have CCs

 

 

Tanky frame with good weapon > squishy frame with the same weapons. The same in melee... there's no high risk high reward melee specialist. Abilities either wipe everything even when tanky frames use them.. or are useless since they don't do enough damage even when "caster" frames use them. Again.. completely binary.

 

And those annoyances are examples of bad game design. That's why they are annoying.

 

All of this is looks like personal preferences here rather than bad game design.

 

 

So... you are supposed to move constantly against Infested.. JEEZ never thought of that. It's not like radar is gonna help me magically see the ancient spawned behind me when I'm tied up killing his three friends rigth the hell NOW.

 

??? Anything coming from behind its bad so you should not be worried about the unit type you should be worried that there is something coming.

 

 

Also, Infested... faction with most direct to HP damage... which are countered by movement... and the solution to the HP damage? Item which MAKES YOU STATIONARY. Great advice as always Mak. Stand on a box! Great game design there, has ninja written all over it.

 

Drop a health restore and use a weapon slam attack, use a CC ability, run around in a circle.

Come on, man, are you not able to do more that one thing at a time?

How come when a suggestion is made the reply is always, "I cant do that one thing and completely solve everything."

What game are you looking to play here, Tetris? You want to drop a piece and everything blows up?

 

 

Oh, you could say that Loki gives up defence for damage in invis. Except the one ability that gives him the most reward ALSO REMOVES THE MOST RISK. It's completely backwards.

 

What? Loki has no direct damage abilities, his whole set is about taking away that risk to damage.

 

 

So yeah... I'm moving around when fighting infested... but I do that with all frames. The difference being that when I happen to make a mistake some of the frames don't punish me as much for it. That would be fine if I got some kind of edge out of playing those more punishing frames... but I don't.

 

You have more energy so stop playing all the frames with the same tactics and start developing new ones.

When i play with Banshee i say her best ability is Sonic Boom because i spam the crap out of that one. That ability is cheap, quick to cast, and it resets the fight, and with her LARGE ENERGY POOL i can cast as much as i want.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Mak_Gohae

[Gigaus]

This.

 

I recently rolled a new character to see if my experience with Mag was better as a clean slate.

I'd initially picked Loki and was unimpressed by Mag when I finally got her.

It was. I actually quite like her, in certain situations (read: Low level defense, or vs. Corpus, with pimped out Shield Polarize), now. But that's not the point.

 

All was well and good, progressing through Mercury and Venus (with a companion, because gl soloing that otherwise) to Earth.

Where I walk smack-dab into an ongoing Infestation.

 

And oh, those Mutaliskts...

 

I had available a Rank 1 Vitality and a rank 0 Redirection on my rank 6 Mag. To go with my (iirc) 90/180 or so HP/shield.

They pretty much killed me from full in 1 proc.

Got to the point that I'd just hit 1 as soon as I saw one of those (*&@#% ^%*@(*%ing Ospreys, because between my lack of HP, the unclear edge of the (thankfully visible) poison cloud and their janky hitboxes (which I saw might've been fixed last hotfix); it was that or die.

 

 

Okay, I thought. Maybe this is just a newbie thing, since Infested aren't standard fare.

So.

Was doing a ~24 Infested mission with my rank 30 Ember.

Built for speed (Rush, Quick Rest, Natural Talent) rather than tanking, guess what? Toxin proc? Certain death.

With a maxed Antitoxin (-45% damage), I was taking ~25 hp per tic.

8 tics.

How much HP does Ember have at rank 30?

 

 

So yeah, I can waste (opportunity cost) a mod slot  (and 5 points) for a mod that won't even effectively combat the toxin damage/proc.

Or I can stick Life Strike on my melee.

Because lord knows that hitting stuff in the face is exactly where Ember wants to be.

Or I can put on a Regeneration aura which A) doesn't fit polarity (and suuure, I could forma my polarity slot just for this one critter...) and B) won't save me from dying to the proc anyway...

 

Or I can just spam auto-targetting AoE from as far as I frikkin' can.

 

 

Gee, I wonder which to choose...

 

 

 

So yeah, saying "man up and adapt you pansies" is so very helpful.

I can't shoot them to death, what with the fact that visual hits don't register (read: janky hitbox), leading them is hard (for me, at least) with any weapon with noticeable projectile travel, since they completely ignore momentum when moving, (you know, like any other Osprey,) and I need to land upwards of 15 hits to kill one, due to having a mk-1 Braton and no Serration.

(in before "So go to the market and buy a better gun!!11!1"

Oh yeah? What gun is so drastically better in this scenario that can be bought and made by a MR 2 character?)

 

 

/rant

 

'no no, you see, you're just a noob, you're not playing right and equiping the right stuff....Oh, oh but the right stuff makes you a noob as well, becasue you're not playing skillfully and just scrubbing it up, it's all about skill and the dodging, and the skill, and using whatever you want while having the exact right mods on, and the skill, and....SKILL!'

 

Sorry, the joke had to be made with so many frothing at the mouth about this magical, non-existent skill in a dungeon crawler....Because we all know games like Diablo 3, Torchlight, and Path of Exile all are skill focused with auto locks and mass AoEs...just like Warframe.

 

 

@Mak :Please just stuff it already, you've proven, like all the others bashing in this thread, you have no clue what you're talking about....Especially since your response doesn't even touch on half the S#&amp;&#036; the people you're responding to are talking about...

Edited June 25, 2014 by Gigaus

[Liminal]

Drop a health restore and use a weapon slam attack, use a CC ability, run around in a circle.

Come on, man, are you not able to do more that one thing at a time?

I'm pretty sure enemies could get up twice between one health pulse and the next. Those drops are extremely slow.

Most importantly, when each tick hurts like a b***h you may not have enough time to find a suitable spot to drop the restore, reach said spot, kill the ospreys, switch to melee (which takes too long btw) and fend off other enemies.

[Taranis49]

 

Infested ospreys produce clouds of death and decay, but besides their lack of transparency, are completely avoidable by NOT walking into them and keeping distance from ospreys to begin with... like One does with ALL infested (except those confident in their melee prowess.)  Coincidentally, this cloud has turned into an effective anti-rusher method, no?

 

Which isn't always possible, particularly in confined spaces like the New infested ship tileset or the old Corpus ship tileset. They and the clouds can be unavoidable when they're hanging out on the ceiling on the other side of a hallway door and can't be engaged until you go through or when they're camping an elevator. In short, a bunch of the same problems that plague concepts like broken lights/arc traps, and Mag Eximi - they're not reliably avoidable via the use of this thing called "skill".

 

And to head this off at the pass, I've yet to actually be downed by one. Doesn't prevent me from seeing that the unit has issues, and pretty big ones. Hell, enemies like this tend to promote rushing rather than reduce it, due to the very fact that they're not particularly engaging or fun to fight in the first place.

 

It helps because it means your best move is not, in 100% of all situations, to increase your shields.  Level 1, level 20, level60, doesn't matter.  Without those procs, your survivability is always greater if you increase your shields then if you take any other option.  That is a huge problem, it's why shield stacking was all you ever saw in Dmg 1.0, and it's why we'll be right back there if you simply change the procs so that shields protect against them.

 

So let's not do that.

 

I propose that slash damage will not damage health through shields until shield are down.  But, it disables shield regeneration entirely for it's duration, and against shields it last triple normal length. 

 

Any mechanic that completely bypasses a significant component of the player's defenses and can't be overcome by player skill is a bad one, and doubly so when it renders certain playstyles non-viable (particularly ones touted by the developers themselves).

 

And the reason why shields are/were the "go to" defense is due to the simple fact that they recharge. Conversely, the reason why health-tanking wasn't a popular option was due to the fact that all of the methods to regain health were frame-specific, slow, static, unreliable, or some combination thereof. Incidentally, that hasn't really changed.

 

Giving the player more options in that regard is usually going to be a better alternative than simply forcing them once more into a standardized loadout that ultimately does more to reduce build diversity rather than increase it.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Taranis49

[(PSN)Zeylon]

I'm pretty sure enemies could get up twice between one health pulse and the next. Those drops are extremely slow.

Most importantly, when each tick hurts like a b***h you may not have enough time to find a suitable spot to drop the restore, reach said spot, kill the ospreys, switch to melee (which takes too long btw) and fend off other enemies.

 

This is a big problem I see for any justification involving health restores.  Even if you're awesome at quickly navigating the gear menu and dropping a health restore that you prepared in advance, the damage ticks on a lot of these health damagers are so high that you stand a good chance of dying to the procs before the health restore can really help you.

High level health damage procs will shred you, and practically mandate using health/armor boosts.  Requiring those mods to not die (and health restores besides) already cuts down on variety and any sense of viability of shields vs. health.

 

If nothing else, the 7 pages we have here show that there's a substantial discontent with what these attacks represent and how they attack variety or mandate a certain sort of play.

[Phatose]

That could work, as long as it would be affected by shield recharge mods, giving them more purpose.

 

I think that a lot could be solved by giving dodge roll invul frames (or CC resist) btw. It's pretty silly that you can't dodge knock down for example... you just get hit mid roll. I don't really have a problem with toxic damage by itself that much... I have problem with it being on a faction that has the most CC in the entire game. Everything can knock you down.. and it's very easy to get blindsided. Combine that with the toxic and you have a problem. Making every non-tank frame one knock down away from death.

 

Shield recharge reducing the penalty would be a good idea, as long as it can't completely offset it - it's a mod that promotes shield stacking, and allowing it to completely negate the penalties created to cause hardship versus shield stacking would miss the point.

 

Invulnerability frames are a great idea, and would allow for a lot more interesting situations in the game but I doubt they'd help much here.