Dev Stream 31. Devs Dismissing Player Concerns, And Kubrows.

[CosyPigeon]

That's pretty much all it was.

T4 key concerns? Dismissed.

 

Useless mods and lack of non mod progression for weapons and gear? Dismissed. 

Warframe abilities not scaling with lazy high level content due to ridiculous enemy hp and armor pools? Dismissed.
 
Rebecca points at that veterans have nothing to do? Market focused fix instead of game play focused one (why put in effort to fix game play problems and make the game play fun when we can just create a new way for you to polish shiny things with spare prime parts).

Don't like that your game breaking concerns are being dismissed or subtly ridiculed? Have some Kubrow footage and get over it. 

Don't like the fact that bringing along a slightly overweight fluffy space dog might ruin the immersion of your space ninja game, or make stealth impossible, but don't want to be at a disadvantage in comparison to other players in terms of ability to deal damage? Get over it, you'll get you're space puppy and you'll like it. 

Also check out our sweet new parry animations that you'll almost never see because parry is an RNG mechanic that requires mods that nobody ever uses rather than a skill based one. 

 

Edited June 21, 2014 by CosyPigeon

[virgatetomb]

I also like that it appears they seem to be ignoring many of these threads as well. 

[CosyPigeon]

Yes, I'm pissed off that they didn't even mention this one: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?%2Ftopic%2F242366-devstream-30-an-unexpectedly-large-blow-to-my-hopes-for-the-game%2F

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

  Why do I get the impression people won't be happy until they see DE on their knees supplicating for the full hour?

[KvotheTheArcane1]

  Why do I get the impression people won't be happy until they see DE on their knees supplicating for the full hour?

Strawman, all people would like is for DE to understand what players are saying.

[CosyPigeon]

  Why do I get the impression people won't be happy until they see DE on their knees supplicating for the full hour?

I have no idea why you get that impression, considering it would take DE roughly ten minutes to address the players concerns that have been raised in the largest and most supported threads on this forum in the past month. 

[(PSN)Tego818]

Also check out our sweet new parry animations that you'll almost never see because parry is an RNG mechanic that requires mods that nobody ever uses rather than a skill based one. 

This one gets me the most, I was surprised this mod wasn't removed or reworked given how much they would go on about melee being so 'skill based'  since 2.0.

[VKhaun]

If DE had been 'listening' we'd still be sitting inside invincible frost globes, running around perma invincible with one trinity who can find her 4 key about twice a minute. If DE had been 'listening' we'd still have no reason to explore all the cool places in the void. If DE had been 'listening' damage powers would have taken over the game and we'll be killing T4 by vaporizing it all. If DE had been 'listening' we would have noobie weapons no noobie would ever stop using. If DE had been 'listening' Ember would be an impossible to balance tank mage that gets both defense and offense from power strength. If DE had been 'listening' enemies would still have armor with absurd scaling. If DE had been 'listening' everything would have been buffed beyond Boltor Prime and only after an hour on an endless mission would anything be challenging.

 

 

Players having invalid concerns is pretty straightforward and has been a problem in every game I've ever played since Diablo and Counter-Strike when it was still just a mod. The devs dismissing them is supremely encouraging to me, as I've seen numerous games ruined by devs selling out and just going into appeasement mode giving players what they think they want, instead of giving players a game that they'll enjoy.

 

DE listens to everyone, and they act on what makes sense for their vision of the game they want to make.

 

If that game centers on a mod system about choice rather than stacking stats, then a min-maxer who wants his gun's stats to go up even more while refusing to use utility mods like parry and then blames RNG for his poor choices.. probably isn't going to get anything but dismissed..

[Sasquatchias]

If DE had been 'listening' we'd still be sitting inside invincible frost globes, running around perma invincible with one trinity who can find her 4 key about twice a minute. If DE had been 'listening' we'd still have no reason to explore all the cool places in the void. If DE had been 'listening' damage powers would have taken over the game and we'll be killing T4 by vaporizing it all. If DE had been 'listening' we would have noobie weapons no noobie would ever stop using. If DE had been 'listening' Ember would be an impossible to balance tank mage that gets both defense and offense from power strength. If DE had been 'listening' enemies would still have armor with absurd scaling. If DE had been 'listening' everything would have been buffed beyond Boltor Prime and only after an hour on an endless mission would anything be challenging.

 

 

Players having invalid concerns is pretty straightforward and has been a problem in every game I've ever played since Diablo and Counter-Strike when it was still just a mod. The devs dismissing them is supremely encouraging to me, as I've seen numerous games ruined by devs selling out and just going into appeasement mode giving players what they think they want, instead of giving players a game that they'll enjoy.

 

DE listens to everyone, and they act on what makes sense for their vision of the game they want to make.

 

If that game centers on a mod system about choice rather than stacking stats, then a min-maxer who wants his gun's stats to go up even more while refusing to use utility mods like parry and then blames RNG for his poor choices.. probably isn't going to get anything but dismissed..

 

Personally I don't think the game has a good enough mod system that we actually have more than a couple viable choices of mods, at least for late game stuff.

[VKhaun]

Personally I don't think the game has a good enough mod system that we actually have more than a couple viable choices of mods, at least for late game stuff.

 

Agreed. Definitely need a mod balance pass. Lots of mods are too weak or too narrow. But that's what it means. It means we need buffs/nerfs/reworks/adjustments. Not that the game is designed to just stack damage.

 

There's also the issue of power creep. A lot of people just think power creep is new guns being stronger than old ones but in a game without any kind of structure, where you can take any gun you want to play mid level missions and find good rare items, the real damage of power creep is that people get an inflated expectation of how strong they're supposed to be. This also funnels people towards stacking damage and makes utility feel 'not worth it' because they expect to kill things in one or two bullets when that may or may not have been the design intent. The design intent may have expected you to shoot the target a little more than that, see more of it's behavior before it died, or be more afraid of tougher targets, or have to switch weapons to keep using the ideal damage type. All that goes out the window if someone thinks Boltor Prime is where the bar is set.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

If DE had been 'listening' we'd still be sitting inside invincible frost globes, running around perma invincible with one trinity who can find her 4 key about twice a minute. If DE had been 'listening' we'd still have no reason to explore all the cool places in the void. If DE had been 'listening' damage powers would have taken over the game and we'll be killing T4 by vaporizing it all. If DE had been 'listening' we would have noobie weapons no noobie would ever stop using. If DE had been 'listening' Ember would be an impossible to balance tank mage that gets both defense and offense from power strength. If DE had been 'listening' enemies would still have armor with absurd scaling. If DE had been 'listening' everything would have been buffed beyond Boltor Prime and only after an hour on an endless mission would anything be challenging.

None of that would be needed if DE hadn't made the game's "challenge" based on pure number changes, and instead tried to make actual challenge and skill required.

 

Personally, removing it is the first step towards a balanced game. Honestly, vortex kinda needs to be changed too, it removes the infested with the exception of the new ospery.

 

What I mean by "DE needs to understand" is that (i.e.) notionphil's thread was a thread about ways to make enemies tougher without relying on better AI, or simply scaling numbers up. Or the new player experience is terrible because the newbies can't build weapons, not because they can't figure the game out. DE doesn't understand that band-aid mods aren't a good solution, nobody takes warm coat over +shielding, + shielding simply gives more effective HP. Period. Ammo drum is useless compared to ammo mutation, +physical damage is useless compared to +elemental damage, etc. Sure, the "choice" for modding interestingly is there, but it's not really a choice (see: illusion of choice). Hell, the entire mod system could use a rework. Why not have slots of defensive mods, offensive mods, and utility mods? unlock a new set of slots every X levels of the frame/weapon. Maybe 3-4 of each type on a weapon, and 4-5 on a frame (with abilities being something you also unlock as you level the frame up)

 

Players having invalid concerns is pretty straightforward and has been a problem in every game I've ever played since Diablo and Counter-Strike when it was still just a mod. The devs dismissing them is supremely encouraging to me, as I've seen numerous games ruined by devs selling out and just going into appeasement mode giving players what they think they want, instead of giving players a game that they'll enjoy.

Sure, not every idea is good, not everyone can be listened to, but those DE does listen to they should atleast understand why the idea is there (i.e. notionphil's thread, again.) I'm glad DE ignores plenty of ideas, but there are plenty I wish they'd already listen to (i.e. almost anything to fix the void be it a salvage esq token system, or an item focus bar, etc)

 

DE listens to everyone, and they act on what makes sense for their vision of the game they want to make...

However that doesn't mean it's the right decision. DE is just as human as me or you, and they're not looking at their choices from a player's perspective (i.e. diluting the void without some way to remove the RNG at some point, or the layers and layers of RNG they've been stacking on things (i.e. vay hek))

 

If that game centers on a mod system about choice rather than stacking stats, then a min-maxer who wants his gun's stats to go up even more while refusing to use utility mods like parry and then blames RNG for his poor choices.. probably isn't going to get anything but dismissed..

Some mods should be innate, like the parry stuff, parry isn't very useful now compared to say, +shields, or +power damage, etc, and part of the problem is DE simply putting more and more +damage mods out there. Damage needs to be reigned in pretty far if we want true challenge instead of punishment. We'll never see a good challenge if we one shot every single enemy for the first 60 levels.

Edited June 21, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Xylia]

Warframe abilities not scaling with lazy high level content due to ridiculous enemy hp and armor pools? Dismissed.

 

What I've been saying all along:

 

Nerf weapon mods heavily, player damage (with weapons) goes down.

 

Re-balance enemies to compensate, guess what?

 

Warframe Powers that do direct damage will actually matter again.

 

But trying to get people to understand that is like pulling my hair out; they are both equally as fun.

 

Instead, the Devs ignore things like "Mods are overpowered", "Mods need toned down" etc.... and instead they go "Maybe all warframe powers should have utility on top of the damage that way they're still useful even if the damage sucks" ....

 

 

.......lol what kind of balance is that?

 

I was literally face-palming when Scott said that.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Xylia

[VKhaun]

Some mods should be innate, like the parry stuff, parry isn't very useful now compared to say, +shields, or +power damage, etc, and part of the problem is DE simply putting more and more +damage mods out there. Damage needs to be reigned in pretty far if we want true challenge instead of punishment. We'll never see a good challenge if we one shot every single enemy for the first 60 levels.

 

I disagree. The feeling of wanting both and having to choose is what gives it depth and leads to real conversations about load outs and gear and enemies and everything else. If you didn't want both or didn't have to choose, then it wouldn't be a system it would just be a progression of getting more and more and more of the basic stats.

 

I wouldn't hate it if parry was made innate, but I would feel the game had moved backwards.

 

DE has been pretty clear on the issue brought up here, and we continue to see threads about issues they have been even more clear about. That doesn't mean every devstream has to be them defending every decision down to the core and relating it to everything else over and over again. Just because they don't doesn't mean they're ignoring or not listening or not trying to help people understand. If someone doesn't want to hear it they're not going to hear it.

 

 

Example:

 

What I've been saying all along:

 

Nerf weapon mods heavily, player damage (with weapons) goes down.

 

Re-balance enemies to compensate, guess what?

 

Warframe Powers that do direct damage will actually matter again.

 

But trying to get people to understand that is like pulling my hair out; they are both equally as fun.

 

Instead, the Devs ignore things like "Mods are overpowered", "Mods need toned down" etc.... and instead they go "Maybe all warframe powers should have utility on top of the damage that way they're still useful even if the damage sucks" ....

 

 

.......lol what kind of balance is that?

 

I was literally face-palming when Scott said that.

 

 

This guy has got an idea for a great game in his head. He's probably thought it through really well and I bet it'd be fun, but DE_Scott is not going towards a game where damage powers are always viable at high levels. He hasn't been since open beta started. I've been hearing a VERY consistent message of damage early, utility later for as long as I've been playing.

 

People still come to the boards and act like they're calling him out on some bullS#&$ or something. THAT'S THE GAME. Space ninjas, not space wizards. They've even 'listened' and gone out of their way TWICE to put in mage frames that do scale much better. One with a debuff to use powers at much higher levels and the other mixing guns in with +% damage and slows.

 

That's not DE 'not listening'. That's the players not wanting to hear what DE is saying.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I disagree. The feeling of wanting both and having to choose is what gives it depth and leads to real conversations about load outs and gear and enemies and everything else. If you didn't want both or didn't have to choose, then it wouldn't be a system it would just be a progression of getting more and more and more of the basic stats.

 

I wouldn't hate it if parry was made innate, but I would feel the game had moved backwards.

Here's the thing: the vast majority of players don't use the parry mods. The parry mods are simply subpar. They're dead weight in the current system, serving only to dilute the mod for most players. This isn't a real choice, it's a fake choice, assuming you don't want to gimp yourself on purpose.

 

DE has been pretty clear on the issue brought up here, and we continue to see threads about issues they have been even more clear about. That doesn't mean every devstream has to be them defending every decision down to the core and relating it to everything else over and over again. Just because they don't doesn't mean they're ignoring or not listening or not trying to help people understand. If someone doesn't want to hear it they're not going to hear it.

There's a difference between defending an interesting game choice, and defending a bad decision (i.e. DE defending the stamina nerf, or more RNG). And just because DE chooses to do something doesn't make it a good choice. Just because DE did it doesn't mean the players should just accept it.

 

And looking at DE's non existent roadmap, I can't tell where the bloody hell they're going, or what type of game they're trying to make besides some grindy generic feeling TPS.

 

This guy has got an idea for a great game in his head. He's probably thought it through really well and I bet it'd be fun, but DE_Scott is not going towards a game where damage powers are always viable at high levels. He hasn't been since open beta started. I've been hearing a VERY consistent message of damage early, utility later for as long as I've been playing.

And Scott could be wrong. Shocker. He could be making an awful choice by not using this idea. And I've heard the "damage early, utility later" message too, except that contradicts the "all frames should be god tier" idea they have. And that they've been nerfing utility abilities like crazy (which is good, assuming they plan to do a big rework of the balance).

 

That's not DE 'not listening'. That's the players not wanting to hear what DE is saying.

It's also not what I'm referring to, I'm referring to DE talking about threads, or player complaints and completely missing what players are saying.

 

I'm also not saying DE is ignoring players (I think they kind of are though), I'm saying DE doesn't fully understand what the players are saying.

 

The new player exp sucks because players can't craft crap early on, not because they can't figure out how to play.

RNG sucks because it's all they have.

Notionphil gave them some good ideas for enemies, and explained why most of the ones sucked, including the prosecutor, and DE took away that the prosecutor was a huge success.

 

That's what I'm talking about. When DE does listen, they miss the point.

[VKhaun]

There's a difference between defending an interesting game choice, and defending a bad decision (i.e. DE defending the stamina nerf, or more RNG). And just because DE chooses to do something doesn't make it a good choice. Just because DE did it doesn't mean the players should just accept it.

Right, but that player feedback is meaningless if players are using it devicively, to try and lead DE by the nose towards a totally different game direction. 

 

The most common example here is people saying they want X reward and that's what they should be finding. DE has some level of expectation where a person should spend X time to get X reward. Plenty of 'suggestions' have been made trying to bring that out of balance and get things faster/easier, under the guise of RNG IS BAD M'KAY upvote spam for their proposed change.

 

 

 

Here's the thing: the vast majority of players don't use the parry mods. The parry mods are simply subpar. They're dead weight in the current system, serving only to dilute the mod for most players. This isn't a real choice, it's a fake choice, assuming you don't want to gimp yourself on purpose.

I disagree with your assessment. I find parry very useful and the parry->riposte one shot kills enemies more often than not, even after giving up a damage mod to put parry on the weapon. It's also very fun and looks awesome. I think you're even invincible during the animation, so you can chain it over and over again just like Dark Souls, but I haven't actually tired to do that at high levels.

 

but if I digress and say for the sake of argument that I agree with your assessment, that still doesn't mean that Parry should be innate. It means the choice is out of balance and should be more worthwhile. Maybe combine FInishing Touch and Parry into one mod, or add some blocking stamina cost reduction to parry since it obviously encourages blocking. 

 

 

 

 

And Scott could be wrong. Shocker. 

Not at that level he couldn't. I know that quote will make me look like the ultimate fanboi forever, but that's what the game is: space NINJAS, not space WIZARDS. That's not something he can be correct or incorrect about. That's what the game is and where it's going in a very fundemental way. It's like arguing we should be a top down strategy game, or a trading card game, or that we should all be in go-karts throwing banana peels. Sure, Scott could be passing up a chance to make the best 2D fighter ever, but he's not there to make a 2D fighter he's there to make third person action/RPG space ninjas.

 

 

 

 

That's what I'm talking about. When DE does listen, they miss the point.

I don't think so... I think the problem is that they disagree with the foundation of the point. Someone says we need to get rid of parry because it's a meaningless choice. It's not that they miss the feedback that many people feel it's meaningless, it's that they disagree with the foundation for the feedback, that we should get rid of meaningless choices. They're holding off to do balance passes on mods as a system, and in that pass they will, presumably, take the point that it was meaningless and try to make it a more meaningful option.

 

If you feel they totally missed the point of something, please cite a specific example.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

 

Right, but that player feedback is meaningless if players are using it devicively, to try and lead DE by the nose towards a totally different game direction. 

 

The most common example here is people saying they want X reward and that's what they should be finding. DE has some level of expectation where a person should spend X time to get X reward. Plenty of 'suggestions' have been made trying to bring that out of balance and get things faster/easier, under the guise of RNG IS BAD M'KAY upvote spam for their proposed change.

I disagree, Player feedback lets DE know when they're going in the wrong direction, otherwise we'd still have ODA keys that took 6hrs to build with a cost of like 1k polymer bundles or something massive. We'd still have prime pats with 0.67% drop chances, we'd still have all sorts of dumb things.

 

I disagree with your assessment. I find parry very useful and the parry->riposte one shot kills enemies more often than not, even after giving up a damage mod to put parry on the weapon. It's also very fun and looks awesome. I think you're even invincible during the animation, so you can chain it over and over again just like Dark Souls, but I haven't actually tired to do that at high levels.

If it does make you invincible then it might have some use, but that seems like an oversight seeing as no other animation gives you that anymore IIRC, and even so, until extremely high levels I can just shoot said enemy to put him down faster and safer than running up to melee him (but I digress too)

 

but if I digress and say for the sake of argument that I agree with your assessment, that still doesn't mean that Parry should be innate. It means the choice is out of balance and should be more worthwhile. Maybe combine FInishing Touch and Parry into one mod, or add some blocking stamina cost reduction to parry since it obviously encourages blocking.

The whole point of a parry system is to reward good timing. Block an attack at the right time, it staggers the enemy. Block at a perfect time and then attack, get a counter attack to go along with it. That's how it works in every other melee game out there because it rewards player skill. It's not simply holding block and running into enemies, it's watching for the start of the animation and triggering the block at the right time. Of course to make this relevant at all, it means DE would need to actually balance the game.

 

 

Not at that level he couldn't. I know that quote will make me look like the ultimate fanboi forever, but that's what the game is: space NINJAS, not space WIZARDS. That's not something he can be correct or incorrect about. That's what the game is and where it's going in a very fundemental way. It's like arguing we should be a top down strategy game, or a trading card game, or that we should all be in go-karts throwing banana peels. Sure, Scott could be passing up a chance to make the best 2D fighter ever, but he's not there to make a 2D fighter he's there to make third person action/RPG space ninjas.

 Yes, he could. He could be completely wrong about the direction he's taking the game. Whatever game he's trying to make is vastly different from what he's actually doing. This game is about as far from ninjas as I can tell. Nothing we do is "ninja" other than kill enemies. Parkour sucks, stealth is nonexistent (well, a true stealth system at least), the mod system is just a series of false choices, and the game has very little actual content, and more or less no meaningful lore. Whatever Scott imagines is vastly different from what he's producing, so yes, he can be wrong at that level. Just because you call something a space ninja doesn't make it so.

 

If you feel they totally missed the point of something, please cite a specific example.

Alright, lets start with a pretty galling one. This was back when continuous weapons dealt damage every second or so (once a second). People hated it because it wasted ammo, and enemies would be killed before the continuous weapon killed the enemy:

 

"Continuous Fire Weapons

The request for continuous fire weapons to be reverted back to showing a ‘damage number fountain’ is a double sided argument. Some players enjoy the new ‘condensed damage number fountain’ and some player’s want it reverted. So where is the middle ground? The reasoning behind the change was to make it more obvious for players who are applying damage mods, as it’s easier to notice that numbers are 5% larger in magnitude vs being generated 5% faster.

The satisfaction of seeing numbers fly while using continuous fire weapons is what’s being missed. Feedback and suggestions have been noted."

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/175122-february-7th-community-hot-topics/?

 

Also, remember the thing about new players crafting weapons? DE thinks it's because they don't know how to play. But that's not it, it's because players can't craft any weapons/find the most useful mods! They can craft the orthos, and the cronus. Whoop dee do, they still need to kill enemies that those can't quite work against, I.e. hellions.

 

If that's not a clear 100% point freaking missed, nothing is. It was never about a fountain of numbers, it was about the incredibly delayed damage. I'm sure I could come up with more examples of things players hate that DE seems to ignore (I.e. argon), but I think this serves pretty well. DE listened to the player base here, but they didn't understand what the player base was saying. There's nothing here about the feedback being missed, plenty of posts were posted saying what I summed up (just not purely in that thread).

 

(In general:

Players want challenge, DE gives them punishing mechanics (arc traps, new ospery, etc))

Edited June 21, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1

[VKhaun]

ODA key requirements aren't game direction, that's just tweaking. I think your whole position basically just comes down to that. You're not able to discern the difference between fundamentally changing type of game you're playing and tweaking to make that game better. This is open beta, not early alpha. People did not go grandmaster inferno stomping disarmer to be told NEVERMIND and have the whole game pivot to center on spell casting. I'm still reeling from the PvP announcement and wondering how far that's going to go.

 

I agree the parry example doesn't go real far. I don't like that mechanic being chance based in the first place TBH, but I don't think it should be 100% innate either. The use of a mod to make it 100% from a very low % was a strange way to go about it. I would have it be higher base, maybe 50% or so, and then give the mod that makes it 100% something else in addition.

 

 

 Yes, he could. He could be completely wrong about the direction he's taking the game. Whatever game he's trying to make is vastly different from what he's actually doing. This game is about as far from ninjas as I can tell. Nothing we do is "ninja" other than kill enemies. Parkour sucks, stealth is nonexistent (well, a true stealth system at least), the mod system is just a series of false choices, and the game has very little actual content, and more or less no meaningful lore. Whatever Scott imagines is vastly different from what he's producing, so yes, he can be wrong at that level. Just because you call something a space ninja doesn't make it so.

 

I think you paint an unfairly dark picture, but it's true improvement would be nice in a lot of areas. I don't see how opening a can of all those worms argues your point though. Any feedback to improve parkour or any of those things you listed would be towards making a better space ninja game, not towards turning it into space wizards.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to the whole continuous weapons thing. I really am.

 

I see what you're saying because I remember around that time people were claiming the display change actually included a nerf that made the weapons send damage to the target less often.

 

I never knew that to be true. I was a big user of Flux Rifle at the time and I did notice the enemy's HP moved in chunks rather than smoothly, but those chunks were timed with the numbers so I ASSumed that nothing had changed except the display up there as well. I never looked any farther because enemies often died with full or lots of HP left faster than the tic rate that the display would change at so I ASSumed there was no real nerf and people just thought there was because DE isn't terribly articulate when it comes to things like that...

 

But all this was ASSuming. If there really was(still is?) a nerf I don't know about it and haven't looked into it.

Edited June 21, 2014 by VKhaun

[KvotheTheArcane1]

ODA key requirements aren't game direction, that's just tweaking. I think your whole position basically just comes down to that. You're not able to discern the difference between fundamentally changing type of game you're playing and tweaking to make that game better. This is open beta, not early alpha. People did not go grandmaster inferno stomping disarmer to be told NEVERMIND and have the whole game pivot to center on spell casting. I'm still reeling from the PvP announcement and wondering how far that's going to go.

But that's what player feedback did, it changed something which was the point. DE has undergone nearly fundamental changes (D2.0 almost fits that) and mod 2.0, all because of player feedback finally beating it home to DE.

 

I agree the parry example doesn't go real far. I don't like that mechanic being chance based in the first place TBH, but I don't think it should be 100% innate either. The use of a mod to make it 100% from a very low % was a strange way to go about it. I would have it be higher base, maybe 50% or so, and then give the mod that makes it 100% something else in addition.

I would make it skill based instead of mod based. Or rework the mod system, and reworking the mod system is probably the easier way to go TBH, because dedicated slots (based on polarity) means players get actual choices instead "stack damage/whatever gives the most damage"

 

I think you paint an unfairly dark picture, but it's true improvement would be nice in a lot of areas. I don't see how opening a can of all those worms argues your point though. Any feedback to improve parkour or any of those things you listed would be towards making a better space ninja game, not towards turning it into space wizards.

I think you paint too bright of a picture, I feel you're defending DE's broken mod system to the death here. Band-aid mods are just that: band-aids. They do nothing to fix the actual problem. People want more useful blocking, so DE gives them a mod. That'd be fine if it wasn't competing with every other mod for the same slot.

 

Also, where are you getting the idea I think the game should be space wizards? What did I say that made you think that? Because I haven't advocated for that at all.

 

Personally, in order to properly rebalance the game they need to nerf powers/implement a new way to use powers i.e. a "focus" system where headshots/finishers/stealth kills/whatever requires "skill" gives the player focus, which allows the use of abilities, instead of just spamming over and over. (There'd need to be some other way too, making it combat based only would harm defense/mobile defense too much imo. Maybe combine a CD with it, where you can use the ability without focus, but then it goes on CD, focus allows for the spam.)

[FalsePride]

DE isnt focusing on the late game yet because theyve said it before. they want to focus their game wider not taller. they want more variety and to do that they need to push the envelope and try new things.

 

building a game while in open beta should always be largely focused around begninning and mid level players until those portions are sturdily in place. gamers like to push the limit and the bounds of a game, when they reach the end of what they can achieve they want more and they will keep wanting more. the OP enemies at late waves/minutes are, right now, our boundary in this game. their goal isn't to let u sit there in an invulnerable iron suit or snow globe, cloaked in an invincible trinity blessing,  while nova nukes and primes everything instanly around u. Its to keep the game challenging and to keep you on your toes while your playing so u can feel the sense of achievement or rush that u got through that boss, or survived that huge wave of infested. (which btw i love the hordes of infested in this Event<3)

 

:: THE JIST:: its like architecture you can build your game up and up to accomodate higher level players, with a weak foundation and having it crumble against a small wind. or you can first build it out wide with a wide foundation and build it even higher, with more support the building will last longer and look even better.

 

yes i am a bit bored of the gameplay right now since im a veteran myself. but i still play, and give feedback on the things that seem to need tweaking, and trust DE to do the best they can to make this game into the game i know they can make it into

Edited June 21, 2014 by FalsePride

[LukeAura]

Choice in the mod system no matter how balanced the mods become will not add entertainment to the gameplay so long as choice in mission is ignored. 

 

[VKhaun]

But that's what player feedback did, it changed something which was the point. DE has undergone nearly fundamental changes

Same answer. You can't seem to tell (or are  unwilling to admit) the difference between tweaks and game direction changes. Damage 2.0 was not a change in game direction. The game always had enemies with varying resists. This is just a new way of accomplishing the same thing.

 

 

 

I would make it skill based instead of mod based. Or rework the mod system, and reworking the mod system is probably the easier way to go TBH, because dedicated slots (based on polarity) means players get actual choices instead "stack damage/whatever gives the most damage"

This always confuses me. Everyone who talks about the mod system backpedals to this exact same total contradiction. If all the utility mods like parry get removed, then what is this magical choice you're talking about? Wouldn't we just be left with DPS/EHP and power stats calculations?

 

 

 

 

I think you paint too bright of a picture, I feel you're defending DE's broken mod system to the death here. 

I'm not defending anything. Please don't mistake me for a white knight. There are plenty of things wrong with the mod system and the game in general. Plenty of things I disagree with.

 

I just 'get' where they're going with the mods and how they're getting there (with overhauls and big systematic changes, not individual tweaks). A lot of mod system feedback purports to advocate choice while removing all the choices (see above) except how to stack damage, and a lot of mod feedback wants things changed one mod at a time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And for the record I hate you for putting me on the other side from skill. >:/

 

I'm usually ALLLL about skill over RPG and if I had my way a lot of stuff would be skill only... but I get bored with pure action games due to lack of depth and I get bored with RPG's due to lack of action. I need both, but when I see any given mechanic I see the action side first and the action side looks best to me, but if everything were done by what looks best to me then it would be an action game with little or no depth, so I'm not going to try and pretend that's what we should have and say the devs "missed the point" whenever they put in an RPG element.

Edited June 21, 2014 by VKhaun

[LukeAura]

I'm usually ALLLL about skill over RPG and if I had my way a lot of stuff would be skill only... but I get bored with pure action games due to lack of depth and I get bored with RPG's due to lack of action. I need both, but when I see any given mechanic I see the action side first and the action side looks best to me, but if everything were done by what looks best to me then it would be an action game with little or no depth, so I'm not going to try and pretend that's what we should have and say the devs "missed the point" whenever they put in an RPG element.

It's not so much missing the point I think. They're just underestimating how much 'Action' Warframe's gameplay needs. They are treating it more like a full Strategy/RPG that uses Action style gameplay to display the results of the rpg/Strategy elements. Kind of like a real time strategy, but taken a step further. And if that's what they want that's fine with me. It's probably not going to work out though. 

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Same answer. You can't seem to tell (or are  unwilling to admit) the difference between tweaks and game direction changes. Damage 2.0 was not a change in game direction. The game always had enemies with varying resists. This is just a new way of accomplishing the same thing.

We'll agree to disagree then. I see fundemental as changing from space ninjas to a top down strategy game. Or changing from Sci-fi to fantasy.

 

This always confuses me. Everyone who talks about the mod system backpedals to this exact same total contradiction. If all the utility mods like parry get removed, then what is this magical choice you're talking about? Wouldn't we just be left with DPS/EHP and power stats calculations?

Utility mods would be things like auto block, or fast reload (although that could be replaced by a GoW style thing, but I think it works fine as a mod, but either or is an option).

 

Utility =/= "utility" in the sense of faster reloads, or more accuracy, it's things that might change how you play slightly, i.e. a chance to auto block, or run faster, or better zoom, or less zoom, or a chance to "tag" enemies automatically, maybe less clip size for a faster reload, things like that. Things that might add an interesting gimmick, not just adding straight numbers to reload/clip size. You could probably move elemental mods here too if they added tiny amounts of damage/converted damage to the element.

 

I just 'get' where they're going with the mods and how they're getting there (with overhauls and big systematic changes, not individual tweaks). A lot of mod system feedback purports to advocate choice while removing all the choices (see above) except how to stack damage, and a lot of mod feedback wants things changed one mod at a time.

The mod system is easily fixable, they just gotta add dedicated slots imo. That helps prevent the crazy build up of damage (which is 90% of why WF scales so high), and adds opportunities to mods that normally wouldn't get taken.

 

 

And for the record I hate you for putting me on the other side from skill. >:/

 

I'm usually ALLLL about skill over RPG and if I had my way a lot of stuff would be skill only... but I get bored with pure action games due to lack of depth and I get bored with RPG's due to lack of action. I need both, but when I see any given mechanic I see the action side first and the action side looks best to me, but if everything were done by what looks best to me then it would be an action game with little or no depth, so I'm not going to try and pretend that's what we should have and say the devs "missed the point" whenever they put in an RPG element.

I feel they "miss the point" when they talk about the continuous weapons bug/nerf/whatever, or what new players need (they need more cheap credit weapons, or easily crafted weapons). WF needs more skill, it has action (we kill hundreds of enemies in each mission), it just needs the depth to the combat, it needs something to be skilled at besides aiming/spraying.

[VKhaun]

It's not so much missing the point I think. They're just underestimating how much 'Action' Warframe's gameplay needs. They are treating it more like a full Strategy/RPG that uses Action style gameplay to display the results of the rpg/Strategy elements. Kind of like a real time strategy, but taken a step further. And if that's what they want that's fine with me. It's probably not going to work out though. 

 

I usually look at it from the challenge backwards.

Fire Eximus -> Big ring of fire that knocks me down and puts me at risk.

 

Action fix?: Melee -> Block -> Good. Have to be aware.

 

RPG fix?: 1slot = 60%, 2slots = 80% resist -> Good. Have to be prepared.

 

Mix fix?: Weapon Swap Speed Aura -> Block more available -> Needs work. Too specific (Aura slot), not well appreciated outside this particular problem or by the team, only neccessary/helpful some of the time, no additional RPG or Action provided.

 

 

As long as I don't end up facing a big collection of problems all at once that all/most can't be fixed by one or the other, then I feel like it's balanced. Procs are a good example of a problem. I'm fine with shield bypass and I'm fine with procs being RNG based, but they're so common and there is no action or mixed fix for them. That's a problem, and it could lead to big problems if players end up faced with other non-action-fixable challenges at the same time.

[VKhaun]

The mod system is easily fixable, they just gotta add dedicated slots imo. That helps prevent the crazy build up of damage (which is 90% of why WF scales so high), and adds opportunities to mods that normally wouldn't get taken.

 

Same contradiction. You're talking about choice while pushing changes that reduce it.The choice mechanic means CHOOSING when to drop damage in favor of utility. If you're mandating the number of mods for any given category with dedicated mod slots then you're not increasing choice, you're just increasing usage arbitrarily, which leads to the exact same thing we have now. Someone will calculate the most DPS they can get from each slot and shove it in there. Mag size and reload speed both have DPS quantification for any given weapon.