In Depth Look At Excalibur And His Place In Warframe

[Void_Vis_Vires]

Hi All,

 

this post is particularly lengthy because I have spent a lot of time thinking about this particular topic. That being said I am VERY interested in what those of you who may read this think about this topic and the things I have said here.  I would really appreciate keeping this discussion respectful and on topic so I am going to ask any trolls and flamers to just please move on to another forum post.  To everyone else I am really interested in anything you have to say about this whether or not you disagree or agree or have suggestions of your own I would like to hear it all! I have also sent a slightly modified version of this to Scott as a pm so I kinda wanted to use this version of it to collect the opinion of the community so once again I would REALLY appreciate ANY feedback and discussion about this, and who knows maybe this will end up changing something ;)

 

Anyways...here we go!

 

Warframe has been going through a lot of changes lately.  Regarding this message I wanted to talk about the some potential changes specifically for Excalibur that would bring him up to par with the other frames.  I am particularly passionate about Excalibur as he was my starting frame and has always been my favorite warframe and he seems to get overlooked a lot. 

It seems to me that Excalibur is supposed to be an all-purpose class.  This was initially very good when the warframe pool was much smaller however over time Excalibur seems to be becoming less and less relevant with the inclusion of more and more warframes. The game as it is now seems to have less and less space for Excalibur as there is at least one warframe per power that can virtually do a version of one of his moves better than he can. (more detail about this below)

 

 

 Many of the warframes have something they are “best” at or something “special” about them.  I was thinking that for Excalibur that he could be the “physical damage king” taking advantage of the three physical damage types introduced in damage 2.0. My suggestion is that Excalibur be reworked as an offensive dps class. He could be the “best” at dealing the most physical damage in the least amount of time. 

The ability to do damage over time lies enough at the core of warframes game play that I feel like the employment of such changes would not strip him of his starting frame status.  This would also allow him to scale better into late game.  As of right now he has one of the most global and hardest drop offs of any frame in the game and these shortcoming are barely able to be circumvented with the use of many forma to push him to an “extreme build”.

 

Currently as a warframe I feel Excalibur is particularly outshined by the following warframes in the following ways.

Rhino: In my opinion Rhino directly out classes Excalibur’s offensive abilities, which I think is strange because Rhino is the dps tank class in warframe and should not be able to out preform a class that is said to be offensive.

Zephyr: Directly Outclasses Excalibur’s mobility.  Excalibur was once also hailed for his mobility, however Zephyr pretty much outshines him in the area in every way.

 

 

Slash Dash:

 in light of melee 2.0 slash dash should be treated as a melee attack.  As a consequence of this slash dash could contribute to the melee combo counter.  The move could also receive a damage boost from the melee multiplier and it could receive a portion of the power strength from the players currently equipped melee weapon. In addition to this if the move counts as a melee move it will receive a damage boost when used against unaltered enemies.  This means that the move now synergizes with Excalibur’s radial blind and also now scales much better into endgame.  The move should also offer more feedback to the payers upon hit. As of now I find myself almost always needing to turn around to see if the move was effective or not.  The default range of the move should increase and there should also be some other type (maybe a visual effect, maybe a noise) that indicates a successful hit. This could of course also be taken care of by the melee combo counter.

Currently I feel that the power(s) that are similar to this that outperform it is Rhino’s Rhino charge and Zephyrs Tailwind.  For Rhino this move offers mobility as well as the added utility of the knock down, and also of course the damage. For Zephyr her tailwind will propel her up if used on the ground and forward if used in the air, this is one of the only powers in the game that synergizes with itself.

 

Super Jump:

 This has always been a contentious power. Its good quality is that it doesn’t cost much and I feel as if it was given to Excalibur with the best of intentions, however I just don’t feel that vertical mobility has a much utility in this game as horizontal mobility does due to the dungeon like style of many of the tile sets. Personally I would like to see this power removed all together however I know that many players would be upset if that was the case.  This was the hardest power for me to come up with a rework so bear with me.

For super jump I was thinking it could be changed to a duration based power or finite usage power similar to Vauban’s bounce ability.  That being said super jump could last a certain number of second or endow the player with a certain number of jumps per use.  The height of the jump could also be increased to bring it into alignment with its name.  Right now it feels more like a “mega” jump as opposed to a “super” Jump.  The move should have an even more dramatic increase in height to make it feel more “super”.  The last change I thought of for super jump is that the user could hold down the power button and release the power button if they would like to stop rising before the apex of the jump.  That was the move can be used in situations where the player needs more height than a normal jump but does not need the full extent of the jump. Upon landing the move could also send out a radial blast of the impact damage type.

Currently I think that Zephyrs tail wind, Vauban’s Bounce, and Nova’s Worm hole directly out preform Excalibur’s super jump.  Zephyrs tailwind goes higher than super jump.  Vauban’s bounce can be placed, and it can also be used as an offensive measure or for utility for team mates.  Nova worm hole allows her a line of mobility in whatever direction the play can aim at.  The move can also be used strategically against enemies or for team mates

 

Radial Blind:

 It can be argued that Radial blind is currently Excalibur’s most useful power. It offers an aoe stun and blind to nearby enemies within range.  The move doesn’t seem to have a limit on the amount of effected targets so long as they are in range and the move also offers a brief stun to the enemy.  The enemies can then move however the can only attempt to attack you if the hear you. I have noticed that even with a min maxed build the stun duration seems to be a little short.  This brings me to my only suggestion for Radial blind that specifically the stun duration (not the time spent blind) be scaled so that it is always some percentage of the total time spent being blind.  This will help the move scale into late game where the mobs need to be hit again and it will save the player from needing to spam the move over and over again. It will also come in handy when reviving team mates as when things get hectic often times your sentinel will draw agro towards you when trying to res team mates in a cluster of late game mobs.

It tough to list a power that directly outshines ( no pun intended) this move as it seems to be one of the more unique moves in the game.  Moves that come close to outshining it are Nyx’s chaos and Nekros’s terrify.

 

Radial Javelin:

This move is a very good move early game.  However it has been my experience that without a min maxed build this cannot really scale into end game content well.  This seems to be even more the case since the introduction of damage 2.0.  My suggestions for this move is that instead of the base damage of 1000 being split evenly amongst the 3 physical damage types it should do 1000 damage of each damage type.  The move should also receive a damage buff that scales with the level of the mod and at level zero the mod should do 1000 damage.  The Javelins should also have a degree of puncture so that the move is not rendered less viable in small or clustered rooms.  However if it was necessary to avoid the javelins having puncture a potential rework for the move could be that the Javelins spawn under the feet of the enemies  and shoot up directly into them.

I feel as if this move is generally outclassed by the other ultimates in the game.

Looter:  This is a move I thought of to potentially replace super jump with.  It is a simply move that would offer the team some utility.  The move could temporarily double the value of any resource picked up.  This is hypocritical as it would be non-offensive however that was just an idea I had.

 

So those are my suggestion to bring Excalibur up to snuff with the rest of the warframe crew.

Thanks for reading!

 

Edit: after all that I forgot something lol

 

Another new power I thought of for him:

Name: Siphon

Effect: A team buff that gives the team a duration of time which melee channeling cost zero energy.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Ebohcalyps3

[APBladeX]

Still wanting that Oberon and Frost buff.

[Doughalo2]

lol excal is one of the best because of radial blind and his forwards and upwards util please leave him alone he is amazing :P

[Darkmoone1]

lol excal is one of the best because of radial blind and his forwards and upwards util please leave him alone he is amazing :P

Despite that, I would like a look into his Slash Dash and radial javelin as I feel like they leave a bit to be desired. His other two abilities are fine however.

[Jamescell]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/250094-excalibur-ability-update-buff/#entry2898479

[Void_Vis_Vires]

@ Jamescell

You have some really good ideas going there thanks for sharing

Edited June 21, 2014 by Ebohcalyps3

[Void_Vis_Vires]

lol excal is one of the best because of radial blind and his forwards and upwards util please leave him alone he is amazing :P

 

Thats kinda the issue though, I dont think he was meant to just be good due to radial blind and his forwards and upwards momentum, but thanks for sharing your opinion!

[TC-Guardian]

I was initially ready to cut you down as well there are so many of these threads which often just overpower and change Excalibur. But i personally think these suggestions are great and very viable.

[Void_Vis_Vires]

I was initially ready to cut you down as well there are so many of these threads which often just overpower and change Excalibur. But i personally think these suggestions are great and very viable.

Few! lol thats a sigh of relief. I am familiar with how brutal the community can be at times especially with a topic like this lol. I really tried to think on this idea for a while. I have been wanting to say something for a couple of months now but because this particular topic pops up in many threads I tried not to speak out until I had a good idea of what it was I wanted to say lol

[NeyoWargear]

I find his ability pool just fine. To fix the problem with Radial Javelin not having puncture to go through obstacles, do a Super Jump and do it mid air, acts like an air strike of course, and may strike your enemies' heads. Slash Dash is still very useful, mix it with a Super Jump, you can get very far and hit airborne targets. Slash Dash is also highly useful for narrow hallways and straightaways. I don't remember if it still has armor ignore, but meh. I find Excalibur to be just fine, I've found that Super Jump does make Slash Dash and Radial Javelin highly useful. Combining powers of your Warframes does wonders and make them that much cooler.

[Void_Vis_Vires]

I find his ability pool just fine. To fix the problem with Radial Javelin not having puncture to go through obstacles, do a Super Jump and do it mid air, acts like an air strike of course, and may strike your enemies' heads. Slash Dash is still very useful, mix it with a Super Jump, you can get very far and hit airborne targets. Slash Dash is also highly useful for narrow hallways and straightaways. I don't remember if it still has armor ignore, but meh. I find Excalibur to be just fine, I've found that Super Jump does make Slash Dash and Radial Javelin highly useful. Combining powers of your Warframes does wonders and make them that much cooler.

You have a lot of good points here, the only thing I disagree with is that there are many times I find myself in a room that has both objects and a ceiling in which case the ability to combine super jump with radial javelin is compromised.  What you said about slash dash touches on its utility of movement however what is your opinion on the damage it currently deals?

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

 I just hate hitting super jump on accident. It would be cool if you could chain super jump. Hit again at the apex of the jump. If this has alway been possible, please tell me.

[NeyoWargear]

I'm fine with the damage, I don't do a lot of endgame content, always leveling new weapons and Warframes(At a standstill currently, need to get Loki Prime), but I recently Formaed Excalibur and he seemed just dandy with me. Though I didn't go to T4 Void or anything, he seemed alright. I mainly have my weapons be my main damage dealers, but if we're in a pickle, Radial Blind to stop enemies and Radial Javelin to kill or severely weaken them. Excalibur is supposed to be an all purpose Warframe, not a heavy damage 'Frame like Ember and Nova. I think he serves his purpose well and is well rounded.

EDIT: My only problem with Excalibur is I wish Super Jump caused impact damage like the Heavy Impact mod, but it is better suited for Zephyr(Mix it with Dive Bomb after a Tail Wind) and Valkyr(Ripline straight up). That's my only problem, but even then, meh, he's awesome in my book.

Edited June 21, 2014 by NeyoWargear

[Void_Vis_Vires]

 I just hate hitting super jump on accident. It would be cool if you could chain super jump. Hit again at the apex of the jump. If this has alway been possible, please tell me.

So do you mean like double and potentially multi jump with the ability? Also to my knowledge this is not currently possible.

[NeyoWargear]

Never been possible to my recollection. I don't think it ever will be. 

[Void_Vis_Vires]

I'm fine with the damage, I don't do a lot of endgame content, always leveling new weapons and Warframes(At a standstill currently, need to get Loki Prime), but I recently Formaed Excalibur and he seemed just dandy with me. Though I didn't go to T4 Void or anything, he seemed alright. I mainly have my weapons be my main damage dealers, but if we're in a pickle, Radial Blind to stop enemies and Radial Javelin to kill or severely weaken them. Excalibur is supposed to be an all purpose Warframe, not a heavy damage 'Frame like Ember and Nova. I think he serves his purpose well and is well rounded.

Ahh ok I see, thanks for sharing! All these replies are really helping! also Loki prime is pretty fun I like his design lol

[NeyoWargear]

So do I, those elbow knives look killer(Literally), and his helmet, is nicely done. Too bad Rhino Prime got a terrible helmet(My opinion), now if only I could get a Trinity Immortal Skin(She still looks sweet nevertheless). I feel if DE buffed Excalibur to an offensive 'Frame, I think Super Jump and Radial Blind may be removed for more offensive skills. My opinion is that, he seems well done, and I rather not have thousands of people flocking to Pluto for Excalibur because of these buffs. I feel special when using Excalibur because he's underused and underrated, like Banshee, Trinity, Zephyr, and Volt...I tell this to everyone new to Warframe, when they ask, "Which Warframe is better? _________ or ______?" I just respond, "Depends, what role do you wish to fill? Every Warframe has a playstyle. You must adapt or die." I choose Trinity as my second Warframe because I love the healer role. From Battlefield to Planetside 2, I'm either the Medic or Support/Engineer. I'm more a utility guy, and Excalibur just fits fine.

[Void_Vis_Vires]

So do I, those elbow knives look killer(Literally), and his helmet, is nicely done. Too bad Rhino Prime got a terrible helmet(My opinion), now if only I could get a Trinity Immortal Skin(She still looks sweet nevertheless). I feel if DE buffed Excalibur to an offensive 'Frame, I think Super Jump and Radial Blind may be removed for more offensive skills. My opinion is that, he seems well done, and I rather not have thousands of people flocking to Pluto for Excalibur because of these buffs. I feel special when using Excalibur because he's underused and underrated, like Banshee, Trinity, Zephyr, and Volt...I tell this to everyone new to Warframe, when they ask, "Which Warframe is better? _________ or ______?" I just respond, "Depends, what role do you wish to fill? Every Warframe has a playstyle. You must adapt or die." I choose Trinity as my second Warframe because I love the healer role. From Battlefield to Planetside 2, I'm either the Medic or Support/Engineer. I'm more a utility guy, and Excalibur just fits fine.

Yeah I always want him to use them to finish enemies off with and I agree about Rhino Primes helmet lol( kinda makes me think of rabbit prime) and Well said about Excalibur I also feel special when using him lol and its cool that you tell new players that. I feel that people who understand that each frame has their own style truly understand how this game works, too often do I hear someone flat out say that such and such frame is "horrible" or is all around "useless" and I can see your point about Excalibur from a Utility standpoint he is in really good shape.  I suppose I have my own bias because in every game I play I always go strait to the melee dps class lol.  So it makes sense the we see him the ways that we do.  Ahh this is so nice, its eye opening being able to have mature conversations with people who think different than you. I like it when these discussions remain civil and on topic I feel like this is how forums are meant to be lol

[Gurzil]

"Zephyr: Directly Outclasses Excalibur’s mobility.  Excalibur was once also hailed for his mobility, however Zephyr pretty much outshines him in the area in every way."

 

 

Nope. Excal can hit better angles, and doesn't really have to worry about overshooting his target. He also doesn't have to deal with her hang-time, which cuts into the speed of her hampered mobility.

 

 

REMOVE RADIAL BLIND? You sir, are fired!

Edited June 21, 2014 by Gurzil

[Corvid]

Perhaps adjust Javelin so that enemies impacted by the spears get sent flying away from the point of origin? They did just get impaled with a fair amount of force, after all.

 

We don't really have a radial repulsion ability like that.

[RealPandemonium]

Excalibur is pretty solid as-is, outside his 4.  If we had to change him, I would do it like this:

 

1 should add to the melee combo counter and use it to boost damage, similarly to Blade Storm.  It should also freeze the combo counter while in use so that Excal can keep his combo going between groups of enemies.  If possible, making this ignore unit collision or forcing them out of its way while in use would help reduce the frequency those occasions where it gets stuck on an enemy and goes nowhere.

 

2 is maybe a little OP but we shouldn't touch it for now.  An enemy AI change could make this move balanced (see Loki discussion threads for more ideas about cloak balance.)

 

3 is one of my favorite abilities and, with some practice, is great for navigating large levels.  I would say to give this a little more responsiveness (less loss of control during the animation) and maybe give it some invincibility on startup so that people shut up about it having no utility (lol.)

 

4 suffers from many problems: low damage, stopped by walls/objects, awkward targeting, maximum number of targets, and horridly long, unsafe animation.  I would suggest that the animation be fixed, at the very least. 

 

Increasing the proc chance of the javelins and allowing them to carry the enemies they hit (whether it kills them or not,) with that ragdoll also damaging enemies it knocks them into (as if a bow killed the enemy) would allow this ability to shine in certain situations.  For example, the Heavy Gunner next to you gets hit by two javelins, dealing 2000 damage base.  The impact of being hit by those javelins forces the gunner backwards toward the wall.  On the way to the wall, the gunner strikes 2 or 3 other enemies, who are also each dealt 2000 damage and knocked down.  Upon reaching the wall the gunner would be pinned to it for a second, then break free and continue whatever it was doing (unless she was killed by the javelin, of course, in which case her corpse would be pinned to the wall until it disintegrates.)

 

Let me know what you guys think, especially about the 4 change.

Edited June 21, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[Edgedemon]

Perhaps adjust Javelin so that enemies impacted by the spears get sent flying away from the point of origin? They did just get impaled with a fair amount of force, after all.

 

We don't really have a radial repulsion ability like that.

the only part i agreed with the original post was making radial javelin come from under so it can bypass cover but this sounds a lot better, and more in line with excalibur for it would allow a supposedly melee focused frame to gain breathing space in the middle of combat.

 

the rest of the suggestions are kind exaggerated over all the triple radial javelin damage part

[Edgedemon]

3 is one of my favorite abilities and, with some practice, is great for navigating large levels.  I would say to give this a little more responsiveness (less loss of control during the animation) and maybe give it some invincibility on startup so that people shut up about it having no utility (lol.)

 

i would like "super jump" to allow a forward  jump instead of only vertical maybe

 

if you use while sliding it could make a more powerful Front Flip that would be great and add horizontal dimension to the skill

 

edit: hate to this forum changes font color when you paste something

Edited June 21, 2014 by Edgedemon

[RealPandemonium]

i would like "super jump" to allow a forward  jump instead of only vertical maybe

Increasing momentum in whatever direction you hold down would be nice.

Edited June 21, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[NeyoWargear]

If you want a nice horizontal jump with Excalibur, use Slash Dash, very useful to catch up with allies and revive them and get over long distances easily. You could also mix Slash Dash and Super Jump for even more distance.