Ability Scaling: Issues With Ideas Discussed In Devstream 31

[bejuizb]

Hey everyone,

 

I watched the Devstream yesterday was was honestly surprised by the answer we got when Scott was posed with the question about damage ability scaling.

 

We were told that the damage based Warframes did indeed face falloffs during really high level content (will be called meta for ease) and that utility based Warframes are the clearly superior race at those levels.

 

This is good, because it shows that as of now, there is a clear divide between damage based Warframes and utility based Warframes: Damage frames shine at low to mid tier content while the utility ones shine during meta. I say this is good because we now have a clear foundation to base our ideas and theories from.

 

We were then told that the Damage Warframes would be getting a damage buff and that they would be getting some utility to them.

 

I'd like to point out a few things here. Firstly, a plain and simple damage buff is kind of daft. Most damage based Warframes deal more than adequate damage early and mid game anyways. Literally nothing survives most abilities. Sure, it might be arguable that a base damage buff will increase progression into meta a bit, but understand this: it will only do so very slightly, while having the negative effect of trivializing early and mid game content due to the difficulty, or lack thereof.

 

Secondly, an addition of utility will indeed be nice, and I have no issues with the matter. As long as the utility doesn't trivialize content any further, and actually synergises with the ability itself, I'm alright with it. There are no drawbacks to implementing it the way I see it. But, to play the devil's advocate, I'll reserve my judgment till the system gets implemented.

 

An idea for a possible solution:

 

This was an idea I got from the TPS MOBA called Smite. Instead of blindly increasing damage, implement a system where a percentage value of your power strength mods gets added to the base damage of your Warframe's damage abilities. This added percentage will scale with the level of the enemies, but not as fast. Therefore, if you really want to go toe to toe with lvl 200 mobs, you can still do damage to them instead of facing the frustration of dumping hundreds of rounds into their face to merely tickle their health bars.

 

Now this might have a counterargument: won't this trivialize meta content then?

 

The answer is debatable. Sure, you now have the ability to fight tougher enemies much more effectively, but at the same time, you have to understand this: they get tougher FASTER than you. Sure, your abilities hurt them quite decently after an hour or so in a survival, but they can still probably one shot you.

 

Scratch that: they will one shot you.

 

All this system allows is giving players a fair chance in combating tougher enemies with more skill, nothing more. The scaling aspect of it means that the damage abilities remain relatively consistent, just like the utility abilities, but without being overpowered in lower level content.

 

Right now, Warframe needs more challenging content, which is why people keep pushing to go meta. Power creep is definitely an issue and it will remain so when you have flat upgrades to existing content, which in essence trivializes them. As of now, everyone is focused on the meta, making insanely powerful weapons and Warframe abilities, which means that there is lesser and lesser content that is fun and satisfying.

 

My qualms have always remained the same throughout my play time of this game: if everything scales so stupidly, why can't we scale as well, but at a lesser rate? Borderlands 2 is a game that does this perfectly. The Vault Hunters get tougher and tougher, but so do the enemies, and at a much faster rate. My idea is based off of this concept as well.

 

I know that this isn't the only solution there is, and neither is it the right one. I'd simply like to provide and collect feedback to try and find a way to appease both the casual and meta community, while ensuring that content doesn't get trivialized in the process.   

[neKroMancer]

To be frank, I don't get it. It doesn't solve the damage falloff of damage abilities. You still can't deal sufficient damage to higher level AI then what does it solve?

I agree with DE's idea - giving these damage abilities utility aspect to make them useful in higher level. With proc chance thrown into the equation, I think it is a viable solution for this problem. Look at Rhino Stomp and Molecular prime as examples for this solution. However, the problem is that elemental effect doesn't offer much variety and require a lot of tinkering to prevent one power from being overpower.

[bejuizb]

To be frank, I don't get it. It doesn't solve the damage falloff of damage abilities. You still can't deal sufficient damage to higher level AI then what does it solve?

I agree with DE's idea - giving these damage abilities utility aspect to make them useful in higher level. With proc chance thrown into the equation, I think it is a viable solution for this problem. Look at Rhino Stomp and Molecular prime as examples for this solution. However, the problem is that elemental effect doesn't offer much variety and require a lot of tinkering to prevent one power from being overpower.

It cannot be helped. Your damage abilities follow a square root curve once you hit meta levels. My solution simply increases the damage of the abilities as the difficulty increases, but without trivializing lower level content. If you expect to be able to nuke meta mobs, your logic is flawed. There's only so much that something can be scaled to. After a point, regardless of how much you buff abilties base damages, they are going to drop off and become useless.

 

Flat damage increases in a game based on scaling is a stupid precedence. Have some amount of scaling for everything. That's the premise of my idea.

 

As I said clearly, I'm perfectly fine with utility being added to the abilities. Nothing wrong with it whatsoever. 

[RealPandemonium]

If anything damage from both abilities and weapons needs to be nerfed and Grineer armor needs to be re-evaluated so that the game is more grounded and varied in options besides "screenwide nuke at low levels" and "exploit my ridiculous weapons, faceroll CC, and AMD/Absorb" at higher levels. 

[Tigersight]

Personally, my problem with all of this is that warframe powers are only being looked at for their utility in the first place. I'm a Nova player because I love killing enemies with my warframe powers. The fact that those powers have absolutely no scaling into lategame sucks, and hearing DE say that they aren't going to do anything about it makes me cry a little inside. The way I look at it, flat buffs to ability damage seem like they would help, since no low level content can survive them anyway, there would be no difference. It would raise the level of mobs I can one-shot by some, but mobs that my powers can actually hurt by... not much, because of the way scaling works.

 

So in actuality you're totally right about that, it wouldn't really do any good for flat damage buffs. Any buffs to powers have to be scaling buffs if we want them to make any real difference. Sure, some more utility would be nice I guess, but when I choose a damage caster frame, utility isn't really what I'm looking for, you know?

 

On a somewhat unrelated note, it annoys me that people even consider damage powers strong at all. Sure, my powers can hit for like 1,000 damage, awesome!

But my gun hits for 80,000... huh.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Tigersight

[neKroMancer]

It cannot be helped. Your damage abilities follow a square root curve once you hit meta levels. My solution simply increases the damage of the abilities as the difficulty increases, but without trivializing lower level content. If you expect to be able to nuke meta mobs, your logic is flawed. There's only so much that something can be scaled to. After a point, regardless of how much you buff abilties base damages, they are going to drop off and become useless.

 

Flat damage increases in a game based on scaling is a stupid precedence. Have some amount of scaling for everything. That's the premise of my idea.

 

As I said clearly, I'm perfectly fine with utility being added to the abilities. Nothing wrong with it whatsoever. 

 

Imo, damage abilities' sole purpose is to give newbies breathing room when they got overwhelmed. It's meant to be used just like that and it works well. If you are going to propose an idea to increase power's damage (at lower rate compared to AI's defense growth) but you can't use it effectively against high level AI they why bother?

 

This is where I don't get about your idea. It's just making them 'less' useless but still useless. 

[BlitzkriegBob]

Right now, Warframe needs more challenging content, which is why people keep pushing to go meta. Power creep is definitely an issue and it will remain so when you have flat upgrades to existing content, which in essence trivializes them. As of now, everyone is focused on the meta, making insanely powerful weapons and Warframe abilities, which means that there is lesser and lesser content that is fun and satisfying.

I completely agree with you about that.

 

Hmm... Scaling abilities damage with difficulty is a quite difficult mechanic to implement... The idea would be to avoid DPS-oriented frames to hit a wall past a certain level when their abilities are totally outgunned by, well, guns? Well, at first, why not nerfing higher-end weapons (seen the difference between regular Nikana and Dragon Nikana?)? Just a bit. Then, reducing the way ennemies health/armor increase with level. Of course, this requires some tuning, but this seems to me easier to implement than a "floating" damage curve. Also, it would keep minimal impact on low-level content, which is one big concern also.

 

Edit: to be honest, I'm OK with utility becoming stronger than damager at higher levels. It's a fact that, when you're outgunned, you start to rely on tactics instead of firepower... Challenge doesn't means increasing mob statistics endlessly, which is sadly the direction taken with recent t4 missions.

Edited June 22, 2014 by BlitzkriegBob

[bejuizb]

I completely agree with you about that.

 

Hmm... Scaling abilities damage with difficulty is a quite difficult mechanic to implement... The idea would be to avoid DPS-oriented frames to hit a wall past a certain level when their abilities are totally outgunned by, well, guns? Well, at first, why not nerfing higher-end weapons (seen the difference between regular Nikana and Dragon Nikana?)? Just a bit. Then, reducing the way ennemies health/armor increase with level. Of course, this requires some tuning, but this seems to me easier to implement than a "floating" damage curve. Also, it would keep minimal impact on low-level content, which is one big concern also.

 

Edit: to be honest, I'm OK with utility becoming stronger than damager at higher levels. It's a fact that, when you're outgunned, you start to rely on tactics instead of firepower... Challenge doesn't means increasing mob statistics endlessly, which is sadly the direction taken with recent t4 missions.

Indeed. Floating damage curves are a bandaid fix, I know. But they would really increase the effectiveness of abilities in the meta. I decided to stray away from the nerfing route because of the proverbial sh!tstorm that it would evoke in this community.

[bejuizb]

Imo, damage abilities' sole purpose is to give newbies breathing room when they got overwhelmed. 

Regarding your first sentence. You start off with "imo" which right there ruins your point. Its your perspective, not a fact. Damage Warframes are not meant for newbies. That's a fact. They are meant to kill, regardless of skill, that's a fact. 

 

 

It's meant to be used just like that and it works well.

I disagree. They give breathing room because you can kill enemies, nothing more. Sure, it does work as intended, but in early and mid game. The purpose of the devs buffing them and giving them more utility, will make early and mid game strategies obsolete. Why use tactics when you can just annihilate rooms with 6 energy? You see my point? I want to make sure content doesn't get trivialized, both in early/mid and metagame.

 

 If you are going to propose an idea to increase power's damage (at lower rate compared to AI's defense growth) but you can't use it effectively against high level AI they why bother?

So that you don't hit a brick wall. Simple.

[BlitzkriegBob]

I'm not sure focusing on damage vs enemies health is the best way to bring challenge again in meta. The fact is that, virtually, there is no limit to enemy power escalation, while abilities have one: once you've maxed your frame, your mods, your build with corrupted mods... you can't go further. So, due to inherent game mechanics about maxing mods, this wall exists.

 

What about bringing meta dedicated enemies? Enemies who will disarm player, for example? Or who would use similar abilites as the frames (no same, similar I said), but without increased armor/health? Howitzer officer who rain hell from behind cover, proteced by a wall of mobs with their level caped to a certain value? I know this is more or less already happeining with Eximus, but I think principle is wrong, as they just are tougher version of ennemies with one aded capacity; What if they had same health BUT could force you to go melee or send you back part of the damage done to their fellow soldiers? Or give their allies weapons punch-through? Or deploy decoys all over the place to trick target-seeking abilities?

 

Just an idea, of course, but you get the principle. Mob level should be capped (like abilities power) so that DPS remain usefull whatever the difficulty, and new combat situation thinked especially for meta. Quite a headache to balance, though, but I think it would be interesting...

 

Of course, there is still option to allow unlimited devellopment of powers... What would give a 60 point worth BladeStorm?

 

Edit: just a joke for the last one. Of course. Hmm.

Edited June 22, 2014 by BlitzkriegBob

[Acegikmo]

The only reason threads like this exist is because there is currently no endgame content. If there was, everyone would change their tune to" It's endless mode what was I thinking, I'm supposed to hit a wall at some point since there is no feasable end". /facepalm

[vaugahn]

Right now, I'm perfectly happy with abilities falling off in damage at high levels. I think this fits the pace of Warframe quite well. Instead of buffing damage for abilities, add utility like mentioned in the devstream and tweak enemy scaling. I recall this being discussed in a different thread, but right now meta enemies are exactly the same as early game enemies except they kill you in one hit and eat loads of bullets before going down. This is false difficulty. Enemies should scale accordingly for meta gameplay, it would be painfully easy if they didn't, but instead of turning them all into sir instakill, why not implement more challenging enemy types and gameplay.

 

Anyways, that might not have been explained very well. The overall point I'm trying to get at is approach this issue from the other side of the problem perhaps

[LukeAura]

I think DE needs to put a definable 'end' to when they stop balancing. Because they always, at least used to, say "We don't balance for infinite content".
But never actually defined what level stopped being in game and started being infinite. And then after a while their opinion probably changed and 'in game levels' grew higher. 

Most people would probably say 40 minute T4 Survival would be the end right now, as that is 2 chances at a prime part per survival before stretching over an hour. 
Which means that if they are going to scale abilities with flat values+damage boosting mods to content that would be the end point they want to consider each ability maximum output around, and the modding required to get there.