What Exactly Is The Problem With Weapons As A Whole?

[RedMonarch]

This is a little hard for me to word perfectly the way I like but I'll do my best.

 

The state of weapons as a whole really sucks in my opinion right now.

 

To give perspective, we have an assortment of different styles of weapons, ones that fire bolts, bullets, flak, organic cool stuff. We have types like shotguns, assault rifles, lmgs, snipers, etc. We also have a huge assortment of melee weapons, waaaay too many for the game to currently handle imo, even though it is genuinely awesome when we get new ones. 

 

This diversity gives, or at least I think it does, the players the idea that they can develop playstyles most suited to them, regarding not just modding warframes and weapons, but color customization, what weapon types they use, etc. etc. This is a huge hype increasing factor for this game imo and part of what makes it great because it's so friendly towards personalizing. 

 

Unfortunately, weapons that one might enjoy more than any other, just out right suck further into the game compared to ones that they may, not want to use. To give an example, I really love the Braton Prime, but no matter how far I mod it, maxing each mod, pol'ing and potatoing, it just drops off after lvl 100s come in or so, completely. If I really wanted to survive in such high level content and still be a fairly efficient killer, I have to use weapons I really don't like using, i.e The Soma, the Boltor Prime, etc. but mainly those two overpowered powerhouses. 

 

That really sucks, it feels limiting, like I'm being forced to use them if I want to go higher, which I do, but I'd rather use the weapons that feel right with me, that feel like me. 

 

Now this brings us to the question of how to fix this? Well I really don't know. We can't just nerf Soma and Boltor prime, that'd make high level content impossible, despite the fact that it'd balance the most damage dealt percentages in everything else. We can't just buff every other weapon, that'd make the game just too easy in it's current state regarding enemies, and would really just break everything.

 

Whatever the solution though, I think it needs to include the possibility of being able to have weapons that aren't the best DPS outputs ( that statement is referring to how weapons are ATM), be effective in any tier of gameplay. That way, player's can formulate their own true playstyles, rather than conform to the preset l33t master gear. I mean why can't the best general assault rifle of the game be able to go up alongside the best LMG or Bolt spammer, same thing goes for Shotguns and Snipers.

 

All I can think of at the moment is finding some way to upgrade the stats of weapons that isn't through mods, and by stats I just mean base damage, unless someone has a better idea. Maybe have tiered versions of weapons, with each tier being locked by a mastery level? A rough idea that needs a lot of work, but it's all I got atm. ( Like, Tier 1 Braton Prime is the current Braton Prime, Tier 2 one looks the same, but stat wise, it's more viable for those lvl 90 runs, etc.) 

 

(this goes slightly off topic from here but it's here to resolve potential questions)

 

To add, this would technically shatter the general difficulty of the game, as it seems to rely on either enemies becoming more damage spongy further on, or have them output more damage themselves with minor health/armor up-scaling, if every weapon was capable of becoming strong enough for super high levels, well you get what would happen with lower levels I'm sure. ( BLARRRRRGGHH LAZZZOORR *everythin ded*)

 

 The solution to that would have to come via new enemy types, and the reworking of some current units. They'd have to have, immunities, only can be damaged via weak points, beat you via their behaviour, but in general, keep you on your toes, rather than you just having to be like, my damage is awesome BLAAAAAAAHH *everythings dead without any thought beyond point and click*. Tilesets could also do this ( the new infested one makes you pay for being in tight spaces when you aren't thinking, right?)

 

For example, general infested try to beat you via swarming you, k cool, that's actually a good tactic and it's proven to work, keep it, but we need more then that, (as I can play lawnmower with the current enemies all day with my high tier equipment) then it will be harder, that's of course what the Juggernaut will do, along with other future infested additions. Same thing needs to happen in other factions, difficulty needs to rise not by sponge expanding, but by different enemy behaviours(how they attack you) and characteristics( immunities, weaknesses, etc.) working towards the common goal of beating the Tenno by outsmarting them, not just overwhelming their DPS with sponginess. ( Prosecutors are a good example of this right now)

 

Once enemies take that kind of direction, then I think the idea of getting all weapons capable of being up to par for really high level, more spongy enemies can be, an idea of less consequence and more benefit, rather than the other way around.

 

Of course if spongy enemies are made void entirely then well, haha, nevermind.

 

Anyways, DISCUSS my friends, and provide constructive replies as always, as they are best. 

Edited June 25, 2014 by S1kTh

[Seele]

For fear of presenting the semblance of shaming self-advertisement, I ask you to read my own thread on the matter.

 

For the sheer number of weapons, and the quantities we are still owed before this game can be considered complete, there is very little reason, logically, to use any but a few. Aesthetic preference and conscientious dissent are the only reasons anything save Boltor Prime, Soma, Penta, Ogris, et al are used, period. Not even mastery rank or parts acquisition can stop people now, I've played with a rank 2 who had Ember, Carrier, and Latron Prime. New players can far too easily be carried to 'high-level' content and skip over a vast majority of the game doing so.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Seele

[Scherhardt]

We need mastery 2.0/weapon progression 1.0 and weapon tiering.

[(PSN)CrimsonShinku]

i'd rather have a way to improve weapons themselves, say, each time you forma that braton prime you can choose to upgrade it's base damage by 10%, or it's crit chance and such. the only downside to this would be that people would eventually start dealing way too much damage on everything.

[Deidaku]

OP the focus system was supposed to bringa  way to upgrade your stuff.

but it's delayed....Again

[K_Shiro]

I think it wouldn't be so hard to actually balance them out at least - but as long we sometimes get new weapons that forego anything else (Marelok) and that are weaker than those before them (Attica), my hopes are locked away.

Previously mentioned Penta and the like also has the problem of weird effect-dissipation. It seems that there is "too far" range where you cannot get hurt, a vary thin "barely hit" range where you get hit but not much, and the "full damage" area that makes up 95% of the aoe. That makes the weapon too powerful, the damage suddenly cuts of at the border of AOE while it fully affects everyone within it. That's not how explosives work.

I would make Penta, Ogris, Angstrum use a much tighter ammo pool but up their aoe quite a bit for residual damage and more danger to the player. That would keep them VERY useful against crowds but selfdestructive in close combat situations (just like how real explosives work). Ah well, that's another tale.

[Orbister]

We need mastery 2.0/weapon progression 1.0 and weapon tiering.

No tiering is the worst that can happen to diversity, we need all and every weapon to be viable endgame, either through forma or a huge balance from DE, we need to be able to choose a weapon for how "it feels" not because its better than other, weapons need to be "better" because they fit our play style better, not because of numbers, an example already present of this is the tigris, it is a very good weapon but does not fit everyone's style, it's play style its so extreme that not everyone can get used to it, thats what we need, each weapon needs to feel in a particular way, so we accomodate our play style the best we can, if not, if there are tiers diversity and choice are just an ilusion and a lie.

[RedMonarch]

i'd rather have a way to improve weapons themselves, say, each time you forma that braton prime you can choose to upgrade it's base damage by 10%, or it's crit chance and such. the only downside to this would be that people would eventually start dealing way too much damage on everything.

Exactly, which is why I suggested enemy difficulty come from the challenges they present with their behaviours, tactics, immunities, etc. Although, I still don't think that's a good idea due to the fact that REALLY powerhungry players could end up having well, deathstars in the forms of guns and swords.

[RedMonarch]

OP the focus system was supposed to bringa  way to upgrade your stuff.

but it's delayed....Again

I'm aware, still, constant attention to this issue is much needed still.

[RedMonarch]

I think it wouldn't be so hard to actually balance them out at least - but as long we sometimes get new weapons that forego anything else (Marelok) and that are weaker than those before them (Attica), my hopes are locked away.

Previously mentioned Penta and the like also has the problem of weird effect-dissipation. It seems that there is "too far" range where you cannot get hurt, a vary thin "barely hit" range where you get hit but not much, and the "full damage" area that makes up 95% of the aoe. That makes the weapon too powerful, the damage suddenly cuts of at the border of AOE while it fully affects everyone within it. That's not how explosives work.

I would make Penta, Ogris, Angstrum use a much tighter ammo pool but up their aoe quite a bit for residual damage and more danger to the player. That would keep them VERY useful against crowds but selfdestructive in close combat situations (just like how real explosives work). Ah well, that's another tale.

I couldn't agree more, but like you said, that's another tale, or rather, a small step that goes toward the idea that this topic proposes?

[Cleesus]

They arent balanced in the slightest and there is no difference in using most of them. Most melee weapons feel the same and so do most guns. You dont get anything for playing anything but the most powerful weapons. You cant bring your favorite weapon to any content unless it is one of the most powerful ones that works any where. There is plenty wrong with weapons and balance in this game.

[Seele]

They arent balanced in the slightest and there is no difference in using most of them. Most melee weapons feel the same and so do most guns. You dont get anything for playing anything but the most powerful weapons. You cant bring your favorite weapon to any content unless it is one of the most powerful ones that works any where. There is plenty wrong with weapons and balance in this game.

Well, you're mostly right.

 

My top five weapons for kills are Grinlok (~12,000), Grakata (~10,500), Karak (~10,000), Braton Prime (~7,000), and Burston Prime (~6000).

Of those, only Burston Prime would ever be considered "top-tier" by the general public, though a Burston drop in the Void today ushered an "ew" from one of my newer-to-the-game teammates.

 

So, yes, there is very little fundamental or functional difference between weapons, especially melee. And you get nothing special for using anything besides the clear-cut best. But the problem is that the best is too good, not that the worst is too bad (though Spectra does actively challenge that statement). You can make anything work very well in this game, but it will still pale in comparison to the mainstream behemoths.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Seele

[Cleesus]

Well, you're mostly right.

 

My top five weapons for kills are Grinlok (~12,000), Grakata (~10,500), Karak (~10,000), Braton Prime (~7,000), and Burston Prime (~6000).

Of those, only Burston Prime would ever be considered "top-tier" by the general public, though a Burston drop in the Void today ushered an "ew" from one of my newer-to-the-game teammates.

 

So, yes, there is very little fundamental or functional difference between weapons, especially melee. And you get nothing special for using anything besides the clear-but best. But the problem is that the best is too good, not that the worst is too bad (though Spectra does actively challenge that statement). You can make anything work very well in this game, but it will still pale in comparison to the mainstream behemoths.

Yup and mod balancing is a whole nother problem when it comes to weapons in this game. I wouldnt want to be in charge of fixing weapons/mod balance lol

[YourLocustBuddy]

I do like a lot of weapons that aren't very viable in high-level situations, but in a way I feel that it's sort of necessary. In terms of real firearms, there's a very large variety of them, there's a lot of them that are clearly better than others, some of them simply look nice or offer more exotic ammunition choices, there's quite a few that are basically identical, but not everything can be the best or the most unique, and that's just how it is. You need to have low-level weapons, mid-level weapons, and high level weapons. It's a bit odd if you have the ability to make every single weapon extremely powerful in every single situation, otherwise you lose the need for variety. So while every weapon should be viable, making them all capable of reaching the highest tier possible isn't always a good choice.

 

My suggestion is to have 'paths' you can spec into that have trade-offs. You might choose to spec into damage but end up with less ammunition and a higher recoil. Maybe you choose to spec into accuracy but lose fire-rate and reload speed.

 

I think that'd give every weapon a sort of 'unique' nature to keep them from all turning into the same weapons, but also make them more viable in certain situations.  

[(PSN)CrimsonShinku]

Exactly, which is why I suggested enemy difficulty come from the challenges they present with their behaviours, tactics, immunities, etc. Although, I still don't think that's a good idea due to the fact that REALLY powerhungry players could end up having well, deathstars in the forms of guns and swords.

yep, although i really wouldn't mind both at the same time, this probably comes from the fact that i enjoy your classic RPG's where if you work hard enough you get your infinity+1 characters. i can see it breaking the game and making them work would require a complete enemy rebalance where enemies have weakpoints and all the damage in the world won't fix a bad aim.

 

another thing that could be done is the same system i suggested, but capped, say for example, all shotguns could only reach a max of 500 damage total, 50% crit and 25% crit chance, rifles get 250/50/25, pistols get yadda yadda, etc.

 

this way, weak weapons would require more work, but if you really liked a weapon you could bring it to the same level of a burston prime or boltor prime

 

edit: truth be told, you can use any weapon without forma for the whole starchart, a good frame and modding will make it possible, top tier weapons are really only necesary if you're gonna 100-wave or something of the sort, i beat most of the starchart with my aklex simply because i liked them, i didn't even like using my primary

Edited June 25, 2014 by (PS4)CrimsonShinku

[MultimediaCarl]

Yes the truth is you can do the entire starchart with basically every weapon in the arsenal. no problem.

But that doesnt make it right, that the entire arsenal still is utterly unbalanced.

 

They are very hard trying to give us a good endgame, but as said in this post, i wanna play the endgame with the weapons i prefere. Not 1337 2-4 weapons in the game.

 

In general, Warframe just needs alot of balancing. Ive noticed more and more post about it on the forums lately, even one in which the person wishes for DE to make U15 an entire "Polish the game ONLY" update, and not give us anything new. (Because lets face it, we dont need any more weapons, frames, swords, sentinels, hell i dont even get the Dog idea`)

[MultimediaCarl]

I think you need to accept that although you want to play end-game with the weapons you prefer, those are not meant to be there. Tiers exist, and this is a good thing. Not all weapons need (or should) be viable at end-game, otherwise theres no point in changing weapons and no progression. No idea why so many want all weapons to be viable, but that is really bad game design.

Yea okay i can give you that. Good point

But Warframe still has alot of balancing issues :p

[Archistopheles]

I think you need to accept that although you want to play end-game with the weapons you prefer, those are not meant to be there. Tiers exist, and this is a good thing. Not all weapons need (or should) be viable at end-game, otherwise theres no point in changing weapons and no progression. No idea why so many want all weapons to be viable, but that is really bad game design.

 

Works in theory, but not in practice.

 

1. We have no "end game"

 

2. We have no "progression"

 

All you need is a Marelok and 4-5 forma, the appropriate mods plus time to level the thing in order to be "top tier."

 

Marelok is MR5, and capable of killing level 9999 infested. So please, tell me how that is "progression" while Supra (MR7) is not even 1/2 as effective?

Edited June 25, 2014 by Archistopheles

[Methanoid]

weapons are just a mess, theres no ladder of power/scaling at all, mastery means nothing, build requirements means nothing, even a fair qty of prime gear is subpar compared to cheap market weaponry.

[BiancaRoughfin]

I noticed the game lately has been forcing players into focusing on Elemental Proc effects and depending on the combination, even weaker and older weapons get a good use.

[Archistopheles]

I noticed the game lately has been forcing players into focusing on Elemental Proc effects and depending on the combination, even weaker and older weapons get a good use.

 

That's been DE's reasoning behind weapons becoming outdated as well.

 

"Oh, it's not like your Braton does any less damage now, it's just that certain players will want Soma now, or Boltor Prime."

 

*spits*

Edited June 25, 2014 by Archistopheles

[(PSN)CrimsonShinku]

By all means please show me a video of you killing 9999 Infested.

 

Currently DE are only just starting to put things into tiers properly (see Dragon Nikana). We have player end-game of high end Survivals and Defense. We do have progression, more MR = more weapons unlocked, trades unlocked and extractors unlocked.

 

I have no doubts that DE will soon fix the rest of the MR related stuff.

didn't you see the video of "unmodded ash does level 9999 event"? he murders one in one clip size, a toxic ancient no least

[RedMonarch]

Yes the truth is you can do the entire starchart with basically every weapon in the arsenal. no problem.

But that doesnt make it right, that the entire arsenal still is utterly unbalanced.

 

They are very hard trying to give us a good endgame, but as said in this post, i wanna play the endgame with the weapons i prefere. Not 1337 2-4 weapons in the game.

 

In general, Warframe just needs alot of balancing. Ive noticed more and more post about it on the forums lately, even one in which the person wishes for DE to make U15 an entire "Polish the game ONLY" update, and not give us anything new. (Because lets face it, we dont need any more weapons, frames, swords, sentinels, hell i dont even get the Dog idea`)

We always will need more weapons and frames, sorta, but right now I'd rather take a good damn rebalancing of everything to make everyones playstyle ideas viable, rather than wait around for the unbalance pile to get worse and worse and have more reasons to be backlogged etc. etc.

[RedMonarch]

I think you need to accept that although you want to play end-game with the weapons you prefer, those are not meant to be there. Tiers exist, and this is a good thing. Not all weapons need (or should) be viable at end-game, otherwise theres no point in changing weapons and no progression. No idea why so many want all weapons to be viable, but that is really bad game design.

Why are only three prime primary's actually good at doing anything end game though? Seriously. Progression can be done easy through the mastery rank stuff, and maybe other sub-progress systems, but they use it really, at all. Any noob can have a prime, etc. etc. I understand that not all weapons should be viable end-game, but what I'd like is maybe, an assault rifle, shotgun, boltgun, lmg, sniper, pistol etc. that are good for end game, not just a bolt gun, and an lmg. Or you could implement a weapon specific progress sytem as suggested above to make your favorite viable endgame. I understand where you're coming from, but it still just doesn't feel right to have only a bolt gun and an lmg be the only viable weapons for endgame when there is in-fact, so much cooler guns. 

[Archistopheles]

He eventually manages to kill it aye, but certainly not in 1-2 shots.

 

I never said that.

 

I have no doubts that DE will soon fix the rest

 

Right. The whole game will be cherry pie Soon