Shezo Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Feels like right now, stamina really does nothing but diminishes flow and speed of the game. One seconds, you're a space ninja, wall-running and sprinting like a wind and then, ops, sorry guys, i need a break. Imagine Raiden from MGR:R ninja-sprinting and stopping to take a break all the time ? It would outright kill the whole feel of the game. Just like it is killing it right now in WF. Stamina can work in more slower-paced and deliberate games, like dark souls and whatnot, where every action have more consequence and meaning. But then again, WF is not this type of game. Removing stamina also would help melee a bit more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senketsu_ Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 no its a system in every shooter, and makes it soo you have to think more about your actions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DudeManThingDude Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Removing stamina would make it even more OP and game needs to be slower and harder so NO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cephalon_Ordis Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 oh the rushing if this happened..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKhaun Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Removing stamina would make it even more OP and game needs to be slower and harder so NO! ^ I really want to agree with this guy, but Stamina is holding back the wrong things. Sliding and coptering means you never have to slow down, especially if you go with Quick Rest. Stamina holds back wall running and blocking for me, which I think are backwards. Wall running should not needs mods to be done often, it's too awesome and it naturally balances itself though limited practicality anyway. Blocking needs mods that make it cheaper on Stamina. My 2¢. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shezo Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 Removing stamina would make it even more OP and game needs to be slower and harder so NO! why would want a game about space ninjas to be slow ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawn11715 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Removing stamina would make it even more OP and game needs to be slower and harder so NO! no it doesnt. Stanima just forces you to slide where no normal man would see a reason to slide^^ thats all it does at the moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naftal Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 ^ I really want to agree with this guy, but Stamina is holding back the wrong things. Sliding and coptering means you never have to slow down, especially if you go with Quick Rest. Stamina holds back wall running and blocking for me, which I think are backwards. Wall running should not needs mods to be done often, it's too awesome and it naturally balances itself though limited practicality anyway. Blocking needs mods that make it cheaper on Stamina. My 2¢. So you think it would be good that players could block forever? Taking no damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shezo Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 So you think it would be good that players could block forever? Taking no damage. Why not ? You can still be hit from some angles, plus, what would you achieve by perma blocking ? If you ain't killing stuff, you're achieving nothing in WF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naftal Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Why not ? You can still be hit from some angles, plus, what would you achieve by perma blocking ? If you ain't killing stuff, you're achieving nothing in WF. Makes it very easy to keep aggro from other players/objectives without using any resource. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VKhaun Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 So you think it would be good that players could block forever? Taking no damage. I didn't say that... I said it should have mods that make it cheaper. This would mean none of the forum's MAX DAMAGE UBER L337 DEEPS MANDATORY MODS kids would use it, and the players who do would be making a conscious choice to trade in damage for defense/utility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodRhythm Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 oh the rushing if this happened..... To be honest, stamina has no effect on rushing as of now since everyone just zorencopters everywhere anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naftal Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I didn't say that... I said it should have mods that make it cheaper. This would mean none of the forum's MAX DAMAGE UBER L337 DEEPS MANDATORY MODS kids would use it, and the players who do would be making a conscious choice to trade in damage for defense/utility. Sorry, for some reason I was thinking you were siding with the "remove stamina" people. I don't really have problems with stamina myself, as I like to move faster and by moving fast you don't really use stamina, even without abilities and coptering. Only thing it sometimes limits is starting a sprint after meleeing. I can remove that problem with Quick Rest if I need to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archistopheles Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 no its a system in every shooter, and makes it soo you have to think more about your actions Actually, it just makes me slide inbetween sprints, and not rely on my melee block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OniDax Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I have no problem with stamina. I have a problem with things like blocking costing stamina. I'd say set the stamina cost of all melee weapons to 0, but I at least understand why weapons have stamina cost (although for certain weapons, it seems too high). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorinar Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Stamina has gone through a couple iterations, but there are so many ways around its negative effects, it really is just more an annoyance than anything else. Slide-run-slide, copter, etc. We're forced to do these $&*&*#(%& maneuvers because a high tech ninja warrior deity can't even run as far as I can irl. And I'm about as out of shape as a human can be. As for the argument that "every FPS" has a stamina mechanic - not true. Quite a few don't. Battlefield 4. Planetside 2. Skyrim (melee only). Titanfall (wall-running only, though it's more like your suit's charge runs out). Actually I'm curious if someone can name an FPS that has as limiting a stamina system as Warframe? It's ridiculous. And for people who are concerned that removing stamina would improve rushing, what it would actually do is allow you slowpokes to keep up a little better. Everyone else will keep coptering to the finish line, but an unlimited run (as by god a warrior deity ought to be able to do) will at least let you get there before the extraction timer runs out. About the only thing stamina does in Warframe is annoy (some) people, create horrible workaround behaviors, and make melee less of a viable option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archistopheles Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 And I'm about as out of shape as a human can be. Not true. Pear is a perfectly acceptable shape. Real Tenno Have Curves! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)ZeroSection Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 no its a system in every shooter, and makes it soo you have to think more about your actions But it doesn't really make you think much more at all. It's just a poor mechanic from the modern FPS era that gives players a fake sense of agency while sacrificing mobility. In a game like this that doesn't push you to, or hell even require you to think tactically its just a hindrance to the flow of the game overall. Mobility and even the melee system would be better off without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorinar Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 This thread depresses me because it will literally result in nothing. Stamina is one of warframe's biggest sources of un-fun, but for some reason DE is stuck on maintaining this ridiculous mechanic. Who can watch coptering and think, gee this is a good thing? And why do we do it? Because we can't run halfway across a room without losing our breath. Tenno are all asthmatic I guess. Some history. Stamina once didn't mean jack. Everyone had enough to do whatever they wanted almost indefinitely. You didn't think about it because by the time you ran out of stamina running, you had some shooting to do. Then stamina was nerfed (go back and check out some devstreams, Grineeer/Scott talks about it). The impact to fun gameplay was felt immediately. It was slightly buffed again, but nowhere near what it was before. Here's the problem with that: stamina is a bad system. Previously it was also a worthless system (no effect on players). DE has some notion that it should be a mechanic in the game and therefore they force us to deal with it. Toward what end? Why does it matter? The answer to that is it's like weapon reloading for melee. If they don't remove stamina altogether, it should only apply to melee in my opinion. Currently, you can still melee when on 0 stamina, but you can't do combos. Change it so you can't melee at all when you don't have enough, then it will mean something without causing the game to feel like Warcoptersliderama retardsville. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shezo Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 This thread depresses me because it will literally result in nothing. Stamina is one of warframe's biggest sources of un-fun, but for some reason DE is stuck on maintaining this ridiculous mechanic. Who can watch coptering and think, gee this is a good thing? And why do we do it? Because we can't run halfway across a room without losing our breath. Tenno are all asthmatic I guess. Some history. Stamina once didn't mean jack. Everyone had enough to do whatever they wanted almost indefinitely. You didn't think about it because by the time you ran out of stamina running, you had some shooting to do. Then stamina was nerfed (go back and check out some devstreams, Grineeer/Scott talks about it). The impact to fun gameplay was felt immediately. It was slightly buffed again, but nowhere near what it was before. Here's the problem with that: stamina is a bad system. Previously it was also a worthless system (no effect on players). DE has some notion that it should be a mechanic in the game and therefore they force us to deal with it. Toward what end? Why does it matter? The answer to that is it's like weapon reloading for melee. If they don't remove stamina altogether, it should only apply to melee in my opinion. Currently, you can still melee when on 0 stamina, but you can't do combos. Change it so you can't melee at all when you don't have enough, then it will mean something without causing the game to feel like Warcoptersliderama retardsville. not only this thread, there are countless other threads with improvements, that won't see the light of the day. it is indeed depressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davoodoo Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Only blocking and maybe channeling should be affected by stamina imo. But that would require them to be something meaningful instead of barely useful gimmick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Zeylon Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I'd be for most changes that might get rid of the asinine zoren-coptering and &#!-sliding. The present incarnation of the game has: 1. ninja that move stealthily, run, possibly sprint, slide when appropriate, and perhaps use parkour... 2. ninja that slide around on their &#! every few seconds like a dog dragging it's rear on a carpet, and bounce around swinging their weapons at empty air like idiots... The game would be improved 10x by getting rid of the second bit. Stealth, sprinting, etc. is irrelevant while that exists. I agree that having things slower is better. Regular movement speed is already pretty fast, so is sprinting really. It's just not fast compared to coptering and &#!-sliding. The style of gameplay that most players have is part of the problem. Consider a game where you play through with relatively new characters, and they explore the level, have tough fights that might involve revives, experience the parkour elements, have one person fighting and another hacking. You know, one of those games with four people together accomplishing things on a difficulty scale that's appropriate to their strength. Remember that? Consider how games often are later on. Even higher level players are often interested in the rewards of low level alerts (to sell for plat or just because they have other means of getting them), invasions (because of the stupid time/cost element of things like injectors), resources that are oddly rare, mods that require farming low level locations, and so on. This results in what seems like much more typical public match where a Rhino Prime with Vanguard helm spawns in at the start, Iron Skins, and goes coptering and &#!-sliding through the level, leaving other players to struggle to catch up as the single player burns through the level as quickly as possible effectively preventing any player not capable of keeping up from actually playing the level at all, and leaving some players not even making it to extraction in time. It ceases to be a co-op game. It ceases to be a combat game. It's a racing game you didn't know you were playing. Why do they do it? Because the game is about grinding, more often than not, and it makes sense to try to get 'X' as quickly as possible. Running missions for the purpose of grinding/expedience is different than a game that's more about playing. If you're high level, why spend anymore time on an Alert/Invasion/Infestation than absolutely necessary. You're not interested in the easy content - you're interested in finishing the level as quickly as possible to get 'X' reward. That mod can be turned into plat which can save you time grinding for prime parts, get you resources that are a pain in the &#!, or get add that tally mark to the complete 'X' missions for an event. Speed or deliberate play. Co-op combat hijinks as a group of 4 with some sort of varied and interesting combat, or speed-grinding spamming whatever OP-nonsense is popular like Boltor Primes/M Prime and whatever while ignoring the other players. It's about gameplay that's at cross-purposes. Speed in this game often becomes shorthand for a practice that's more akin to a conventional game speedrun that only nominally involves combat and has no cooperative element. Grind is a large part of that. Slower gameplay makes a lot more sense when you're starting out and can be a lot of fun as you're learning the game, but the lack of difficulty balancing often means uneven difficulty and problems matching your peers. The band-aids they've put in to slow down gameplay don't impact the actual speedrunners sliding by on their &#!, but they make gameplay frustrating and awkward as the other threads about things like "removing agency" or "shield-ignoring attacks" suggest. I can relate to the older players too though, and if the grind elements weren't so pervasive and there wasn't so often good reason for higher players to "slum it" for whatever items (even if it ruins the game for lower players) - they might have better things to do. Grind, RNG, resource chokepoints, and such are design elements that are partially to blame for the gameplay that's at cross purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoomsDayDan Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 no its a system in every shooter, and makes it soo you have to think more about your actions Keep stamina because every other game under the sun has it? Are you a fan of only sprinting for 2 seconds at a time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdunSaveMe Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 (edited) Feels like right now, stamina really does nothing but diminishes flow and speed of the game. One seconds, you're a space ninja, wall-running and sprinting like a wind and then, ops, sorry guys, i need a break. Imagine Raiden from MGR:R ninja-sprinting and stopping to take a break all the time ? It would outright kill the whole feel of the game. Just like it is killing it right now in WF. Stamina can work in more slower-paced and deliberate games, like dark souls and whatnot, where every action have more consequence and meaning. But then again, WF is not this type of game. Removing stamina also would help melee a bit more. Except you could block forever and not take any damage and wallrun almost endlessly. It maybe could use a few tweaks though. My skintight Nova latex shouldn't limit me to only sprinting for a few seconds. But stamina should not be completely removed. Things like the aforementioned blocking become absolutely ridiculous otherwise. You should at least have to put SOME thought into it instead of being able to hold right click and riot shield your way towards any enemy without repercussions. What if sprinting was separate to melee and blocking? Wouldn't make much sense, but it'd change a lot. Edited June 26, 2014 by AdunSaveMe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoomsDayDan Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Except you could block forever and not take any damage and wallrun almost endlessly. If wallrunning for more than 3 seconds at a time is such a gamebreaking issue to you then they could add falloff like in Titanfall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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