Mutalist Osprey's Are Awesome.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

how can you miss that sound? unless your (or my) volume settings are weird, to me it is the loudest most annoying sound and it can be easily heard over other enemys (yes I mean like wave 40 defence amounts of enemys). 

Are you playing solo? Because I'm not, I'm playing with 3 other people who are shooting stuff, stuff is dieing, sounds are being made by the infested horde, etc. And the sound doesn't exactly tell you where it's coming from either.

 

Viral would be completely acceptable as well. that wouldn't solve the problem with Toxin though, as it does still scale out of hand on Tenno. it should be dangerous, but the amount it scales is about as steep a trend as Armor on Ancients used to be way back when.

IMO, in the current scaling system toxin is a lost cause. Eventually it will always scale out of control.

Edited June 27, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Mak_Gohae]

It's not about being "easy" to get a warning from the osprey, it's about being fair.  Right now you have a sound.  If you're not looking RIGHT AT THEM you have no other warning.  And even when you do have that warning, it's pretty easy to have nowhere to go (i.e. hallways and corners).

 

 

What other warnings besides sound would you have if you are not looking at them?

You want a Lotus warning like the ones you get for Heavies and walkers?

 

 

And they're hard to spot because they're tiny and make no other noises besides the warning sound (which I've just covered) and can easily float behind you...they weren't exactly uncommon enemies either, so keeping tabs on multiple of them at the same time...it's kind of a lot to expect a veteran player to deal with, let alone your average joe.

 

It seems the only real solution is to bring along some form of healing yourself continuously.  And that restricts you to a VERY narrow playstyle pool.  Which, when all is said and done, is not fun.  And isn't that what we should be working towards...?

 

I dont see how the only flying unit for a faction that has none is hard to spot. It's the only thing flying.

You are basically saying that you have trouble spotting any Osprey.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Mak_Gohae

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I dont see how the only flying unit for a faction that has none is hard to spot. It's the only thing flying.

You are basically saying that you have trouble spotting any Osprey.

Strawman, he's not saying that. He's saying in the typically dark infested levels, the darkly colored ospery is hard to see, especially as it flies below an ancients head level often.

[Mak_Gohae]

Strawman, he's not saying that. He's saying in the typically dark infested levels, the darkly colored ospery is hard to see, especially as it flies below an ancients head level often.

 

You know, i find it extremely interesting how you know what a poster is actually saying based nothing actually written in the post by the person.

You are some type of post whisperer.

And the Osprey is colored light grey/white.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Mak_Gohae

[KvotheTheArcane1]

You know, i find it extremely interesting how you know what a poster is actually saying based nothing actually written in the post by the person.

You are some type of post whisperer.

And the Osprey is colored light grey/white.

Maybe my colors are off, but I've always had them as a dark to medium gray.

 

And your excuses still don't make them a good enemy.

[Mak_Gohae]

Maybe my colors are off, but I've always had them as a dark to medium gray.

 

And your excuses still don't make them a good enemy.

 

Maybe it's color correction. I turned that off quickly cause it made stuff look weird to me.

And the discussion was never about them being a good enemy.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Maybe it's color correction. I turned that off quickly cause it made stuff look weird to me.

Possibly, I don't mind it really.

 

And the discussion was never about them being a good enemy.

The thread is more or less about whether or not they're a good enemy. Every thread about them has been.

[Mak_Gohae]

 

 

The thread is more or less about whether or not they're a good enemy. Every thread about them has been.

 

The thread is about praising the unit but a bunch of Debbie downers popped in making claims about how much their suck and i was correcting some of the claims.

[Latronico]

Ospreys are quite balanced. They deal damage related to their level (I mean their 'charge' damage). They're not so difficult to aim. Ok, they try to dodge, but at longe ranges they're easy to kill. And, at short ranges, sometimes they stop. 

 

The problem with those thing were those ones: first of all, the poison cloud that create a status change. This was really really unbalanced, because didn't related to player or mission level (so, it could happen to have lv.10 ospreys capable of deal something like 200 HP damage. Just non sense). Second, as someone said, at high waves there was an absurd number of spawned ospreys. They were so much that Ancients, compared, were just sweet as candies. 

Those two things were a real problem for people who tried to SOLOing a defence mission. 

Third, sometimes they stuck in the texture somewhere, and are really difficult to find in some tilesets. 

 

I don't know how they are now, but I think that a correction to those three problems should work. First for a matter of balance, because it has no sense to have some units capable of deal so high damages to everyone, regardless levels et cetera (poison status change). Second, because it's really boring to lost minutes trying to find where the last damned osprey is stucked. 

 

Everything else is just fine as it is/was (I repeat, I don't try many Infested missions with fixed ospreys yet).

 

EDIT: I forgot a thing. When Scorpions were first introduced, they were a non sense unit as ospreys. They could catch a player from 20 meters, no chance to dodge their harpoon, no matter to miss (100% of probability of hit the target). They could drag a player for meters and meters (of course, under enemy fire), without any chance to avoid it. No defence at all. 

When Scorpions got fixed, there was a lot of people complaining about it, for the same reason as today for ospreys. But, if a thing is NOT balanced, it needs a fix. If 'pro players' want to have a challange, well, there is Nightmare. It has been created for this purpose.  

Edited June 28, 2014 by Latronico

[Metalarcher]

What other warnings besides sound would you have if you are not looking at them?

You want a Lotus warning like the ones you get for Heavies and walkers?

 

I dont see how the only flying unit for a faction that has none is hard to spot. It's the only thing flying.

You are basically saying that you have trouble spotting any Osprey.

I guess the main point of this is that it's not about having trouble spotting an osprey.  It's about (1) not knowing when that thing will spawn, constantly forcing the player to look all around at all times (which would be very annoying) and (2) knowing that even if you spot one and keep your eyes on it until it dies, another osprey could easily come up behind you and place its trail right in the middle of where you're standing, and you could do nothing about it if you didn't know where it was coming from, and you wouldn't since you would be focused on the other osprey.  What can be done about that?  Constant movement and 360 scanning at all times for ONE enemy, which, even when spotted, could still be a problem if more than one spawn at a time?

 

So I won't dispute that it's possible for you to spot and keep tabs on one osprey, but doing that to several at a time...is simply impossible.  You cannot have your camera looking forward and back at once.  And even if you could, would it be any fun?  What is so "fun" to deal with about these enemies?  Having to move and twitch your camera constantly, or spam 4 so they can't get close to you before dying in the first place?  Neither of those counterplay tactics are fun at all.  They're easy to do, but tedious.

 

In summary, what do these enemies add to how enjoyable the game is?  That's the real question we need to ask.

[Twilight053]

Sounds like a troll thread, first hey I love that thing you have all been hating on the past week look at me, then hey if you don't like them you must be lazy or dumb.

 

yup troll thread.

 

Looks like we have a challenge hater.

[Onisa]

 

In summary, what do these enemies add to how enjoyable the game is?  That's the real question we need to ask.

 

Personally I find it adorable how they carry, drop and pickup crawlers.

I do feel that their cloud shouldn't proc under current toxic status conditions however.

[Twilight053]

In summary, what do these enemies add to how enjoyable the game is?  That's the real question we need to ask.

 

Personally, I find it enjoyable that people are dying because of the Osprey. As 4chan would say, "git gud".

[Mak_Gohae]

I guess the main point of this is that it's not about having trouble spotting an osprey.  It's about (1) not knowing when that thing will spawn, constantly forcing the player to look all around at all times (which would be very annoying) and

 

Wait... you are not looking around at all times to see what enemies show up?

How do you shot things? Do you not try to spot them first?

 

(2) knowing that even if you spot one and keep your eyes on it until it dies, another osprey could easily come up behind you and place its trail right in the middle of where you're standing, and you could do nothing about it if you didn't know where it was coming from, and you wouldn't since you would be focused on the other osprey.  What can be done about that?  Constant movement and 360 scanning at all times for ONE enemy, which, even when spotted, could still be a problem if more than one spawn at a time?

 

???????

Dont you try to get situational awareness of what is going on all around you at all times?

 

Seriously, i am being serious... how do you play this game? You are playing a 3D game... why wouldnt you be paying attention to everything around you?

 

I guess this explains better why people hated the lights. I thought it was all rushers complaining.

So it might have also included people that dont care to look up in the areas where the lights usually spawned.

Do you not try to spot the Toxic ASAP to kill it waaaay down there so he doesnt get close?

 

So I won't dispute that it's possible for you to spot and keep tabs on one osprey, but doing that to several at a time...is simply impossible.  You cannot have your camera looking forward and back at once.  And even if you could, would it be any fun?  What is so "fun" to deal with about these enemies?  Having to move and twitch your camera constantly, or spam 4 so they can't get close to you before dying in the first place?  Neither of those counterplay tactics are fun at all.  They're easy to do, but tedious.

 

The infested are the dumbest enemies ever.

All you need to do is strafe and they will miss 90% of the attacks. If you keep moving there less of chance that an attack will fall on you. I am not saying that this is full proof and will work one every situation but you should try to help yourself in any way to get the upper hand.

 

In summary, what do these enemies add to how enjoyable the game is?  That's the real question we need to ask.

 

It actually had me paying attention to the Infested more seriously because outside of the Osprey the Toxic is the only enemy that i care about when facing them. I dont even care about the Disruptors because everything else is so dumb. I equip my anti-infested weapons so even if i dont have energy i can still fight effectively.

 

[Metalarcher]

-snip-

Regardless of how difficult it is to dodge multiple of these things at a time, which requires you to keep tabs on enemies that could be in two different cardinal directions, how can you justify that it's okay that these enemies sometime proc that toxic status that deals, what, like 4x normal damage, randomly?  That means if one of them does 50 damage normally through standing in the toxin, it will deal a whopping 200 over time, enough to kill many low-HP Warframes in one go when combined with the 50 damage you go from standing in it to begin with.  That means you died because the enemy just got lucky.  How can you dispute that that is okay?  That it's okay for an enemy to get good RNG and destroy you when normally you would have been fine?

 

And again, the particle effect is like 50-50 opaque and transparent.  Why are they not full-on opaque gas clouds?  Wouldn't that help us see them a lot more?

 

Besides all that you seem to think I have a real problem taking care of these guys.  Like I want them to get nerfed because they're killing me all the time.  I don't.  They hardly got me during the missions, and that was mainly when the toxin proc'd and did a lot more damage than usual, just because of RNG.  I'm not arguing that they can be defeated or that they're too hard.  I'm arguing that they are poorly designed enemies.

 

Sometimes you can dodge the gas trail because you knew the Osprey was about to dash.  Sometimes you don't because you weren't paying attention.  Sometimes you don't because there were two Ospreys, one in front of you in a hallway, and one behind you, and one charged, but you didn't know which one because you never knew the other one was there in the first place so even though you heard the sound it still charged, and even if you DID know, the Osprey would still fill the hallway with toxin anyway.  Though it's a specific scenario, the Breeding Grounds missions had a lot of narrow passageways, which did not synergize well with Ospreys because if one snuck up on you they just laid unavoidable toxin damage on you!  But there are just too many situations where the gas trail is unavoidable for one reason or another, and after that it can do 25 or 125 damage from one tick.

 

And what's the solution to all of this?  Stack health regen, play Trinity, Valkyr or rhino, use mods that have a health-replenishing factor.  That's the worst part about these guys.  They're hard if you don't have the right mods because they can just crush you with unavoidable or unpredictable damage, but if you do have the right mods or the right Warframe they are hardly challenging.  I don't want to play a skill-based game with aiming and positioning required to get hits off, just for the gear to be the factor that determines whether I win or lose.  If that was the case, I would go play World of Warcraft.

[Mak_Gohae]

Regardless of how difficult it is to dodge multiple of these things at a time, which requires you to keep tabs on enemies that could be in two different cardinal directions,

 

 

Seriously, you folks DONT pay attention to your surroundings? In a shooter?

 

how can you justify that it's okay that these enemies sometime proc that toxic status that deals, what, like 4x normal damage, randomly?  That means if one of them does 50 damage normally through standing in the toxin, it will deal a whopping 200 over time, enough to kill many low-HP Warframes in one go when combined with the 50 damage you go from standing in it to begin with.  That means you died because the enemy just got lucky.  How can you dispute that that is okay?  That it's okay for an enemy to get good RNG and destroy you when normally you would have been fine?

 

If you cant keep up with them there mods that can help.

A rank 2 anti-toxin lowered the proc before the nerf to 13 per tick of the proc and 27 inside the cloud of a rank 25 Mutalist.

 

And again, the particle effect is like 50-50 opaque and transparent.  Why are they not full-on opaque gas clouds?  Wouldn't that help us see them a lot more?

 

I complained about this at the beginning but they added those floating parenthesis which made them more noticeable.

If this is still hard for you i guess you can suggest for more.

 

Besides all that you seem to think I have a real problem taking care of these guys.  Like I want them to get nerfed because they're killing me all the time.  I don't.  They hardly got me during the missions, and that was mainly when the toxin proc'd and did a lot more damage than usual, just because of RNG.  I'm not arguing that they can be defeated or that they're too hard.  I'm arguing that they are poorly designed enemies.

 

They are poorly designed because they can kill you? I think that's the intent of all units in the game.

BTW, you do know that they nerfed the spawn rate and damage, right?

 

Sometimes you can dodge the gas trail because you knew the Osprey was about to dash.  Sometimes you don't because you weren't paying attention.  Sometimes you don't because there were two Ospreys, one in front of you in a hallway, and one behind you, and one charged, but you didn't know which one because you never knew the other one was there in the first place so even though you heard the sound it still charged, and even if you DID know, the Osprey would still fill the hallway with toxin anyway.  Though it's a specific scenario, the Breeding Grounds missions had a lot of narrow passageways, which did not synergize well with Ospreys because if one snuck up on you they just laid unavoidable toxin damage on you!  But there are just too many situations where the gas trail is unavoidable for one reason or another, and after that it can do 25 or 125 damage from one tick.

 

So the game is not supposed to put you in dangerous situations?

Im sorry but when i play a game like this i think it should put you in dangerous situation that have you reacting super fast.

 

And what's the solution to all of this?  Stack health regen, play Trinity, Valkyr or rhino, use mods that have a health-replenishing factor.  That's the worst part about these guys.  They're hard if you don't have the right mods because they can just crush you with unavoidable or unpredictable damage, but if you do have the right mods or the right Warframe they are hardly challenging.  I don't want to play a skill-based game with aiming and positioning required to get hits off, just for the gear to be the factor that determines whether I win or lose.  If that was the case, I would go play World of Warcraft.

 

You dont need mods, mods are there to help you if you have trouble with them. I never modded for them, then again i always run Vitality and Rejuv.

 

By the way..... this game is about equipping mods if you missed it... which it appears you have. That's why there are a lot of them, that's why there are 3 slots for different build slots in every single Warframe, weapons, Sentinel. How did you miss that? You can add a mod to run faster, gain energy, life, have a build for melee, have a build for casting, etc, etc.

 

This seems to be the actual problem here, since stacking shields works on 90% of the enemies in the game, some people seem to be confused on what to do because they dont change mods ever... or something. It's ok to change mods.... do it some times. I know it's annoying to switch builds because the UI is bad for it now but hopefully with the ship this is going to change. So alleviate just run Infested missions for a while so you wont have to switch up that much, if that bothers you. 

 

Anyway, let's get back on subject.

 

This enemies are great because it brought back the two-stage type of enemy to the infested that they didnt have since that time when you did enough damage to any of the runner/leaper and they would break up and become crawlers. Anyone remember that? That was fun. They should also bring that back. The Infested are space zombies and zombies keep on going. At least bring it back to the runners because that unit is useless.

[Metalarcher]

-snip-

You still seem to miss my point that being aware of your surroundings is very, very different from looking in two places at once, and that "dangerous situations you should have to quickly react to" are not the same as unavoidable lockdowns.  The enemy is not hard to deal with, it's just that there are so many situations in which the attack is simply unavoidable, and that is not okay, regardless of whether those unavoidable attacks actually kill you.

 

And really the best defense is just to spam 4 against these guys.  There's one in front of you and one behind you.  What do you do if you're scared one will charge you?  Ult.  Problem solved.  So many enemies in the game are already dispatched better by this than anything else.  I don't really enjoy having another enemy that does that.

 

Lastly, I'm going to disagree with you on the point of Warframe being about equipping mods.  I think the point and fun of Warframe comes from playing as a superhero space ninja, running all over the place and tearing apart enemies with power and skill.  Well, mostly power at this point, but you get the point.  Mods should facilitate gameplay styles, yes, but never once have I said "modding is more satisfying than throwing a bombard to the ground and flattening his ribcage into a pancake!"  So I'm not sure I can agree with you on "the game is about modding."  I want my enemies to still have the ability to kill me even if my mods are optimized, as long as they have a somewhat-harder time doing so.  Still, that's a bit of an off-topic criticism.

 

But I don't think I'll be responding to any response you make again.  You seem to enjoy these guys and that's fine I suppose, I'm just explaining why I don't and never will.  What's the point in trying to convince someone that they shouldn't like something, after you have given all your evidence?  About the best thing I can do is just to conclude that you like them and I don't, and regardless of those two differing facts DE is probably going to keep them anyway, along with other poorly designed enemies like powerfists and prod crewmen, at least until they start pumping out "polish" updates instead of content ones.

[LouisThau]

I support this post, but let's look at it calmly, because the opinions expressed here belong to both the extremes, without a middle ground - basicaly there are some very &!$$ed people who find them too challenging (and mostly want nerfs or changes), and others who are &!$$ed at the &!$$ed ones for whining at the new level of difficulty this ennemy adds to the game :

 

So let's explore the ideas mentionned because they are good ^^, and the changes possibles :

 

- Yes the poison proc is too high ; the insta-kill at high/veryhigh levels is more than an issue, as in narrow spaces with more than one osprey the entire team can go down, or are forced to reach higher ground and leave their teammates to die. The "map cloud of death" that can happen when more than 2 ospreys go spam-charging is an issue.

 

- The fact that they are hard to hit is challenging enough I think - no modification needed : Waframe is still a TPS - A little aim is needed from the player ^^ - Adjust your sights tennos ^^

 

- The idea of changing the cloud damage to viral proc would be interesting, but it would require a damage buff, as it does not DoT, and to keep the monster challenging enough.

 

- Keeping the Poison proc is also an option, but would require either making the attack pattern more obvious (as mentionned above) with noise and/or reduction of the area of the cloud. My personnal idea would be to remove the cloud but, like the corpus oxium osprey, to cause the poison proc (buffed) or a smaller gas cloud if he manages to hit you at the end of the charge - like the self destruct of his oxium brother - this would promote dodging manuvers (ninja ^^) while giving a bit of breathing space : but mostly this would punish fairly the "penta-turrets" kinda of players.

 

- The fact that global CCs like Bastille or Vortex do not work on them is also an issue : Bastille does not stop them and they can rush out of the vortex if a tenno gets too close (this is the bigger problem)  - I don't know if that was intended, but in high level defenses in narrow spaces, It become impossible to survive a rush of more than one of them, except with very specific team compositions and equipement.

 

Other than that, I personnaly like the little buggers, as they keept me on my toes during the breeding ground event (and occasionnaly on the ground ^^). It is nice to have a challenging ennemy that can force you to "play well to survive" and to coordinate with your teammates to bring down in order to ensure the survival of the team. I belieive that this was the idea behind the devellopement of such an ennemy, and, like a lot of this in Warframe, it needs just a little balance to make it perfect.

 

Let's all uphold the Balance Tennos !