Stealth Damage X4 Multiplier Not Applying

[SubjectV]

So i've noticed this problem when play Ash and Excalibur (Radial blind). I noticed that I don't always get the yellow 4x damage stealth multiplier when hitting them with melee weapon. 

 

I remember it was used to be very consistent when I started out as Loki, every hit with melee was a stealth hit.

 

Is this a bug? or something implanted. 

[AngelGuardcc]

so this is why i couldnt 1 shot bosses with my loki...

[Athros]

It's because somehow if you nudge/hit/contact any enemy with your body while invisible/stealth, the multiplier were cancelled.

IDK if it's a bug or it was intended, but some people already tested it thouroughly and it turns out that way.

[MrJxt]

Changes:

• 13.8.1 Unlisted change: Enemies now have basic awareness on contact or sound of invisible units, and will investigate last known position of this sound/contact.  There are a number of threads bringing up issues/discussions with this that are being read and relayed, thank you for posting!

[dancingknight]

That makes sense so it's probably intended. 

 

Edit: I was replying to Athros. 

Edited June 26, 2014 by dancingknight

[(PSN)StoneRevolver]

Shuuro said that if you happen to bump an enemy and drop the multiplier, if you are still invisible and they don't detect you after another 2 seconds or so. The multiplier comes back.

[--Q--Ascended-Seraphim]

Confirmed, suddenly my invis loki with dakra prime and crimson dervish does so little damage to enemies.

[Acos]

Seems a bit excessive. Given the fast-paced nature of this game it's going to be kind of difficult *not* to bump into enemies when you're invisible and within melee range. 

[shut]

It's intended. When your body touches an enemy while you're invisible, they'll be able to detect you and they'll wheel around to face you. While your body is touching the enemy's, the stealth multiplier is disabled.

 

I hope they either revert this or continue in the improved-AI direction with a different sort of change. Short-ranged weapons like fists and dual daggers suffer horribly from this, and they're already getting the short end of the stick in terms of viability as it is.

[Acos]

Brief Feedback, I'll probably give something more detailed tomorrow but I'm already way past my bed time as it is. 

You lose the multiplier when you touch an enemy as they become 'aware' of you. Waiting a brief period of time (less than a full second) will usually reset this, but it does make sufficiently short weapons nonviable for Ash/Loki as you are always going to be too close to the enemy. Dark Dagger, for example, without any reach is entirely impossible to get the 4x multiplier. I imagine most fist weapons will have similar problems.

The first hit of your weapon gets a multiplier; all hits following it do not. However, the rule is that if you stop attacking for a brief period your multiplier returns. The practical effect here is that Ash/Loki can no longer utilize the majority of melee 2.0 if they are looking to maximize damage through invisibility. Instead of launching into a combo you are better off attacking, pausing, and then attacking again. I would consider this significantly less fun. 

Ultimately I'd rather have this reverted entirely. I like enemies shooting at me if I touch them, but not at the cost of reducing me to a gimpier version of charge attacks. Considering that you would pick Loki/Ash to take advantage of melee 2.0, I feel this change is especially weird.  

[darthdart]

Delicious Loki tears.

 

Jesus it's wonderful. I welcome the inevitable influx of threads whining about this this weekend.

 

They will revert it almost immediately though and the frame can continue to be OP.

[shut]

Delicious Loki tears.

 

Jesus it's wonderful. I welcome the inevitable influx of threads whining about this this weekend.

 

They will revert it almost immediately though and the frame can continue to be OP.

 

I remember how only six months ago people were going on about how pathetically weak Loki was and that he desperately needed a buff (which, of course, isn't true). And nowadays (after 0 changes prior to 13.8.1), people are magically going on about how brokenly overpowered he is (also, by the way, untrue).

 

The community hivemind is a fascinating, yet terrible thing.

[Tulzscha]

Moved to the proper section.

[SubjectV]

The update log didn't mention anything on the stealth multiplier getting disabled when in physical contact. I like the direction they are trying to go, I thought I could just hit the wall and make all the enemy walking toward where the sound come from then stealthly ambush them. 

 

This new penalty poses a few problems, which comes to mind right away.

 

- can't use black energy anymore, got see where I am relative to target

- Only long reach weapon like orthos, bo, whips are viable now.

- How am I suppose to deal with tougher enemy that require more than one hit?

 

Few solution to get around this:

- Revert this back to original

- Give short range weapon like daggers, swords, fist a lunge feature both in and out of stealth (Lunge distance is affected by reach mod, and anything targeted with the lunge range will automatically excute a lunge). LIke how you can lunge at other player and panic knife in CoD (If soldiers could do that, why not space ninjas)

- Give stealth melee attack bypass armor/shield similar to finisher damage, which is already in the melee 2.0 system. 

 

If DE wants the stealth melee combat more challenging, at least make it more rewarding rather than straight up gimp it's viability. Melee 2.0's viability is limited as it is. 

-  

[S7ORM]

I remember how only six months ago people were going on about how pathetically weak Loki was and that he desperately needed a buff (which, of course, isn't true). And nowadays (after 0 changes prior to 13.8.1), people are magically going on about how brokenly overpowered he is (also, by the way, untrue).

 

The community hivemind is a fascinating, yet terrible thing.

Repost for truth.

 

How about getting charge attacks bacK? Longer charge time though -- that way, while invis, you can charge up for a 4x multiplier on a heavy attacks instead of not getting the bonus for 3 of 4 attacks, but when out of invis, it's not really worth charging up.

[Chupacabra]

I remember how only six months ago people were going on about how pathetically weak Loki was and that he desperately needed a buff (which, of course, isn't true). And nowadays (after 0 changes prior to 13.8.1), people are magically going on about how brokenly overpowered he is (also, by the way, untrue).

 

The community hivemind is a fascinating, yet terrible thing.

 

 

Repost for truth.

 

How about getting charge attacks bacK? Longer charge time though -- that way, while invis, you can charge up for a 4x multiplier on a heavy attacks instead of not getting the bonus for 3 of 4 attacks, but when out of invis, it's not really worth charging up.

 

1) Corrupted Mods didn't exist

2) Stealth got buffed with melee 2.0

 

It's amazing what ENORMOUS BALANCE CHANGES can do to a Warframe's popularity.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Chupacabra

[Acos]

More than anything I dislike this change as it:

1) Arbitrarily limits weapon selection as a function of range
2) Discourages use of the combo system in favor of attack, pause, attack, pause 

3) Guts a huge part of the powers without any prior conversation. If we're looking for ways to make stealth more challenging I have a lot of opinions, but randomly nerfing key powers in Loki and Ash's arsenal (and unlike Ash, Loki doesn't have Bladestorm to fall back on) isn't how I would begin approaching it. 

[DeadX65]

exactly what besides stealth melee is loki good at? radial disarm? short range and synergises with stealth melee, without that>worthless. decoy? dies fast, and once again works best with inviz+melee. switch teleport? yeah, that's real useful.

 

loki had one major skill, inviz melee. gave people a reason to use him and use him effectively in higher content. without that, being as severely hamstrung now as it is. there's better frames to use.

 

frames that have better cc skills, that can survive better.

 

being bumped into should not remove the multiplier. the person being bumped still has no idea exactly where the invisible enemy is, what he should defend against, where the attack if it comes is going to hit, or even from which direction. the AI is overdone, it needs toned back quite a bit. it pinpoints invisible enemies by sound far to accurately and provides defense (the nullification of the multiplier) against an enemy they cannot see.

 

funny, how tenno can't even see through smoke haze and S#&$. and unless the games is at least a quad speaker setup we cannot match what the enemies are capable of.

 

pinpoint accuracy through all environmental hazards and can pinpoint targets and defend themselves by sound/touch alone. who are the real ninjas here?

[shut]

1) Corrupted Mods didn't exist

2) Stealth got buffed with melee 2.0

 

It's amazing what ENORMOUS BALANCE CHANGES can do to a Warframe's popularity.

 

- You make it sound like those two changes don't affect other Frames just as much. Loki's not the only one that was affected by the stealth buff, and Loki isn't even close to being the most affected by Corrupted mods.

 

- Stealth got buffed with damage 2.0. That's more than half a year ago, when Loki was still widely considered to be junk and "lokimasterrace" was more of a community joke than a widely-held belief.

[Acos]

I hadn't tried it with guns yet to give my impressions, but I would have preferred if the enemy fired in your general direction, rather than simply turning stealth off if you're shooting a gun. While invisibility did not give a multiplier to guns, it at least still did something for people focusing on that playstyle by allowing them to fire from relative safety. Probably too safely, but this alternative isn't a better solution. 

That is, in general, my problem with DE's method of balancing. They tend to approach everything with an on/off switch mentality when most things need minor adjustments in one direction or another. Enemies are invincible or they're not. They do a billion damage or none. Our powers crush everything or are completely ignored. 

[S7ORM]

I hadn't tried it with guns yet to give my impressions, but I would have preferred if the enemy fired in your general direction, rather than simply turning stealth off if you're shooting a gun. While invisibility did not give a multiplier to guns, it at least still did something for people focusing on that playstyle by allowing them to fire from relative safety. Probably too safely, but this alternative isn't a better solution. 

That is, in general, my problem with DE's method of balancing. They tend to approach everything with an on/off switch mentality when most things need minor adjustments in one direction or another. Enemies are invincible or they're not. They do a billion damage or none. Our powers crush everything or are completely ignored. 

Yeah, I would definitely prefer if the enemy acted the same way as when you first go into invisibility. They aim for where you WERE, but you have stealth damage. I've heard people also complaining that they don't shoot where you shot from, but where you are when they recognize the shot has been fired (or any other type of damage).

 

1) Corrupted Mods didn't exist

2) Stealth got buffed with melee 2.0

 

It's amazing what ENORMOUS BALANCE CHANGES can do to a Warframe's popularity.

Power creep affects all warframes AND weapons. You can't single Loki and Ash out in this. Excal also got a massive buff when Radial Blind got 4x stealth damage for the whole team. Corrupted mods broke every frame.

Edited June 26, 2014 by S7ORM

[Chupacabra]

@OP Apologies for the off-topic,

 

I really hope stealth gets reverted as it's Loki's only real way of dealing damage, though he wouldn't be completely useless, using ivis-melee was by far the funnest thing to do.

 

- You make it sound like those two changes don't affect other Frames just as much. Loki's not the only one that was affected by the stealth buff, and Loki isn't even close to being the most affected by Corrupted mods.

 

- Stealth got buffed with damage 2.0. That's more than half a year ago, when Loki was still widely considered to be junk and "lokimasterrace" was more of a community joke than a widely-held belief.

 

1) Stealth got buffed with Melee 2.0 from being 200%+ on charge attacks and 150% on swings to a flat 400%, as charge attacks are mostly gone, re-balancing had to happen.

 

2) Would argue that as a Warframe Loki gained if not the most a close second,

-Max efficiency+ Max range make radial disarm spammable

-Max continuity + Max efficiency = super long perma invis, I can't stress this enough perma invis changes Loki's viability by a lot

-Combining the half two leads to a build with perma invis+ spammable radial disarm

 

so yeah I'd say his efficacy become much higher with corrupted mods, not that I'm compaining

Edited June 26, 2014 by Chupacabra

[shut]

1) Stealth got buffed with Melee 2.0 from being 200%+ on charge attacks and 150% on swings to a flat 400%, as charge attacks are mostly gone, re-balancing had to happen.

 

2) Would argue that as a Warframe Loki gained if not the most a close second,

-Max efficiency+ Max range make radial disarm spammable

-Max continuity + Max efficiency = super long perma invis, I can't stress this enough perma invis changes Loki's viability by a lot

-Combining the half two leads to a build with perma invis+ spammable radial disarm

 

so yeah I'd say his efficacy become much higher with corrupted mods, not that I'm compaining

 

1) Doesn't look like you played with Loki, Ash, or Excalibur between November and April. Damage 2.0 scrapped the Invisibility Multiplier (1.5x for normal swings, 2x on charges) and introduced the Stealth Multiplier (4x on all swings). If you don't believe me, you can dig through the archived threads. You'll notice a bunch of "Wow, Loki so strong!" threads popping up during November.

 

2) Once again: Loki's not the only one who got boosted like crazy with Corrupted mods.

[.-KG-..-LivingLegend-.]

I played around now for a while with loki and ash, i dont do any bonus damage. If there is another warframe around, or a hostage, you will do NEVER any bonus damage. So stealth bonus is now only for single players. It seems you only do the damage to them if they are unalertet. you see that on their movements. so ATM stealth is only for damage avoidance, and nothing more. Loki masterrace seems to be over.

[Acos]

I would be open to reducing the multiplier to 2x, but allowing me to retain it for the duration of stealth. That would put my Nikana at about 4k per hit, which is still plenty to be competitive with fire arms and warrant the use of the power. Enemies should still react to their buddies being suddenly sliced apart, but I *am* still invisible so it's not like they can really defend against my attacks either. 

As for guns I'm less sure how to proceed. I don't want to suddenly give them damage multipliers or the whole melee aspect of the frame is scrapped. Enemies probably shouldn't be able to shoot you with pin-point accuracy while you're invisible, but instead begin firing at your general location. 

I still would like it if enemies panicked while I attacked them from invisibility. That's naturally a much broader AI package though and would probably require a dedicated amount of production.