Research Labs Aren't A Garbage Bin, De

[TheAscendedOne]

DE, I know we had a serious lack of clan research weapons, but this is getting a tad excessive. There hasn't been a Market weapon since the Nami Solo (and Dragon Nikana doesn't bloody count with its requisite predecessor being clan research). There has never been a worthwhile alert weapon. 

 

The only recent non-research weapon was the Bo Prime. A bloody prime weapon. Frankly, if you could have made that one research, you probably would have.

 

 

 

 

I'm going to put this in simple terms. Make research actually mean something. It should be a source of unique, special weapons that play very differently from existing options or really represent their faction. It should not be a throwaway bin for every piece of trash new weapon you add. 

 

 

 

 

Why do I say this? Let's take a look at some of the research weapons:

 

Energy Lab: Everything is complete garbage, outside of the Serro and the Amprex. WHY IS DUAL CESTRA EVEN HERE? Do you honestly expect me to believe we need the minds of an entire clan's scientists to figure out how to hold a bloody Cestra in each hand?

 

Bio Lab: What, praytell, is the Mutalist Quanta doing here. It isn't an Infested Weapon. It's a combination of Corpus and Infested tech. Outside of that, this lab is solid.

 

Chem: Let's be honest here. While none of the new Grineer weapons are bad, none of them feel different from non-research weapons either. 

 

Tenno: And here is the big problem. I get that it's a new lab that needs tech, but it really seems like a dumping bin for every new weapon now. Castanas very much feel like an Energy Lab weapon, while all of the other weapons are either exclusive melee weapon types (Nikana and Claws), or feel rather arbitrary.

 

 

 

 

So what should be done about it? Here's the five-step fix. 

 

1) Make all research weapons actually viable. Buff up trash like the Attica, Supra, Dera, Flux Rifle, Spectra, etc.

 

2) Make sure new weapons actually play differently. Before putting something in, ask yourself: "does this feel like a market weapon?"

 

3) Add Nikanas and Claws that can actually be obtained without any need of clan research.

 

4) Let's make alert weapons actually worth something. Add occassional rare, long-duration alerts that give weapons at the top weapons tier, alongside research and prime weapons. We need more places to actually put our weapons.

 

5) Don't bloat the tenno lab with all of the individual blueprints of warframes. Make it a single blueprint that requires a frame's worth of materials to make.

 

[Senketsu_]

they have to think about endgame to you know. 

[TMHowler]

the clan lab thread again? Okay, One more time:

 

Hello, F2P game here, buddy?

 

Pay to get it immediately or wait your turn as everyone else.

 

End of story.

Edited June 26, 2014 by TMHowler

[koolen]

 

Make research actually mean something. It should be a source of unique, special weapons

[KawaiirawrxDkys]

DE, I know we had a serious lack of clan research weapons, but this is getting a tad excessive. There hasn't been a Market weapon since the Nami Solo (and Dragon Nikana doesn't bloody count with its requisite predecessor being clan research). There has never been a worthwhile alert weapon. 

 

The only recent non-research weapon was the Bo Prime. A bloody prime weapon. Frankly, if you could have made that one research, you probably would have.

 

 

 

 

I'm going to put this in simple terms. Make research actually mean something. It should be a source of unique, special weapons that play very differently from existing options or really represent their faction. It should not be a throwaway bin for every piece of trash new weapon you add. 

 

 

 

 

Why do I say this? Let's take a look at some of the research weapons:

 

Energy Lab: Everything is complete garbage, outside of the Serro and the Amprex. WHY IS DUAL CESTRA EVEN HERE? Do you honestly expect me to believe we need the minds of an entire clan's scientists to figure out how to hold a bloody Cestra in each hand?

 

Bio Lab: What, praytell, is the Mutalist Quanta doing here. It isn't an Infested Weapon. It's a combination of Corpus and Infested tech. Outside of that, this lab is solid.

 

Chem: Let's be honest here. While none of the new Grineer weapons are bad, none of them feel different from non-research weapons either. 

 

Tenno: And here is the big problem. I get that it's a new lab that needs tech, but it really seems like a dumping bin for every new weapon now. Castanas very much feel like an Energy Lab weapon, while all of the other weapons are either exclusive melee weapon types (Nikana and Claws), or feel rather arbitrary.

 

 

 

 

So what should be done about it? Here's the five-step fix. 

 

1) Make all research weapons actually viable. Buff up trash like the Attica, Supra, Dera, Flux Rifle, Spectra, etc.

 

2) Make sure new weapons actually play differently. Before putting something in, ask yourself: "does this feel like a market weapon?"

 

3) Add Nikanas and Claws that can actually be obtained without any need of clan research.

 

4) Let's make alert weapons actually worth something. Add occassional rare, long-duration alerts that give weapons at the top weapons tier, alongside research and prime weapons. We need more places to actually put our weapons.

 

5) Don't bloat the tenno lab with all of the individual blueprints of warframes. Make it a single blueprint that requires a frame's worth of materials to make.

^^^this right here. +1

[Lunarsage]

the clan lab thread again? Okay, One more time:

 

Hello, F2P game here, buddy?

 

Pay to get it immediately or wait your turn as everyone else.

 

End of story.

There is already a wait time built in with the crafting system. Did you forget that?

[Lunarsage]

they have to think about endgame to you know. 

Shoving everything into clan research is not "thinking about endgame." Clan research used to be for truly unique weapons. Ogris, Flux Rifle, Torid, Ichors, Acrid. Now what is there? What boils down to standard-operating weapons with mildlly outlandish stats and a pretty reskin.

[BIIFR0ST]

What about the Angstrum?

[(PSN)StoneRevolver]

Somebody get this man a cookie.

[baron1357]

they have to think about endgame to you know. 

but this should be on their list im honestly sick of crappy research weapons

 

"Do you honestly expect me to believe we need the minds of an entire clan's scientists to figure out how to hold a bloody Cestra in each hand?"

this made my day

Edited June 26, 2014 by BARON1357

[TheAscendedOne]

they have to think about endgame to you know. 

 

Yes, yes they do. You're absolutely right. And they need more sources of endgame gear. Using current systems, let's come up with a 4-Pillar Endgame:

 

1) Elite Market - requires a LOT of resources. 

2) Research

3) Prime

4) Elite Alert - rare, long duration recurring alerts of great difficulty.

 

And there's room for more. Scavenger hunting. Dark Sectors. You name it. We need endgame, but we don't need endgame lumped into only two primary sources.

[Hallas]

Have you actually tried to fire two weapons at once?  It's not plausible as seen on TV and in the movies.  There have been a few examples in history where the odd gunfighter in the old west and maybe modern trick show artists are able to do it, but those are special and talented people, that probably trained extensively.  It's not as easy as putting a gun in each hand and hitting the target, especially at range with both weapons.  The AK Link theme seen in the dual pistols fits with the super soldier space ninja theme of the augmented Tenno.  It would take scientists' research to have integrated systems allowing for the effective use of guns akimbo either cybernetically through the Warframe suits or bioengineering in the operators to make this talent ubiquitous.

 

Got nothing for your other arguments, though.  I think I'd like to see research weapons be a little more unique as well rather than just stylized counterparts with some minor stat tweaks.  That Mutalist Quanta is thinking a little outside the norm of this game's usual weapons but I find myself not partial to using it.  But, at least its a step in a different direction.  Would be neat to see AK weapons hitting two different targets at once with some alternate fire mode or something like a pistol stance of sorts.

[TheAscendedOne]

Have you actually tried to fire two weapons at once?  It's not plausible as seen on TV and in the movies.  There have been a few examples in history where the odd gunfighter in the old west and maybe modern trick show artists are able to do it, but those are special and talented people, that probably trained extensively.  It's not as easy as putting a gun in each hand and hitting the target, especially at range with both weapons.  The AK Link theme seen in the dual pistols fits with the super soldier space ninja theme of the augmented Tenno.  It would take scientists' research to have integrated systems allowing for the effective use of guns akimbo either cybernetically through the Warframe suits or bioengineering in the operators to make this talent ubiquitous.

 

Got nothing for your other arguments, though.  I think I'd like to see research weapons be a little more unique as well rather than just stylized counterparts with some minor stat tweaks.  That Mutalist Quanta is thinking a little outside the norm of this game's usual weapons but I find myself not partial to using it.  But, at least its a step in a different direction.  Would be neat to see AK weapons hitting two different targets at once with some alternate fire mode or something like a pistol stance of sorts.

 

You make a point on dual weapons being difficult to learn to use, but that's why they require their own leveling, even if you've already mastered the single. What does affinity represent, if not learning how to use the weapon?

 

There is no logical reasoning behind requiring a special blueprint or orokin cells or a link or any other arbitrary grind thing to figure out that you can hold a pistol in each hand. The dual cestra are simply the worst example by far.

 

And yes, I'll be a little ironic here. The Mutalist is exactly what I want from a research weapon. It just doesn't fit into any of the labs thematically. Maybe if there was a "Hybrid Technology" lab, it would be right at home.

[Senketsu_]

Shoving everything into clan research is not "thinking about endgame." Clan research used to be for truly unique weapons. Ogris, Flux Rifle, Torid, Ichors, Acrid. Now what is there? What boils down to standard-operating weapons with mildlly outlandish stats and a pretty reskin.

pretty much all new plan tech weapons are unique.

[NevanChambers]

You make a point on dual weapons being difficult to learn to use, but that's why they require their own leveling, even if you've already mastered the single. What does affinity represent, if not learning how to use the weapon?

 

There is no logical reasoning behind requiring a special blueprint or orokin cells or a link or any other arbitrary grind thing to figure out that you can hold a pistol in each hand. The dual cestra are simply the worst example by far.

 

And yes, I'll be a little ironic here. The Mutalist is exactly what I want from a research weapon. It just doesn't fit into any of the labs thematically. Maybe if there was a "Hybrid Technology" lab, it would be right at home.

The best explanation I've heard and I love it. The research wasn't so we could hold 2 of them it was so the mods would apply to both.

[zavienh5]

...wow

[10twenty4]

the clan lab thread again? Okay, One more time:

 

Hello, F2P game here, buddy?

 

Pay to get it immediately or wait your turn as everyone else.

 

End of story.

Did you even read the OP? the problem isn't the wait. The problem is that everything is being thrown into research without regard for how it fits thematically. When everything requires a dojo, suddenly a dojo is the only viable way to play (except not really, since most new weapons are crappy).

 

Research ought to be for sidegrades; items that are actually unique and play differently, not just another sword or a gun. The mutalist quanta is a good fit for this. Wolverine claws are not.

[endymion7]

pretty much all new plan tech weapons are unique.

So far in U13, we've had nine clantech weapons released:

 

Wrist claws

An automatic Seuss-rifle with an Electric-shield-esque secondary fire

a scatter pistol whose unique feature is its automatic fire

A machete

the Gilette™ Fusion Pro-polearm

a burst rifle that's essentially a mix of a latron and burston

A Corpus Synapse that has an arcing effect

Dual Swords

A crossbow that is marginally worse than its secondary cousin

 

Of these, I can consider only two to be actually unique: the Venka for being the first claw-based weapon, and the Mutalist Quanta for having a design that makes no sense and an actual secondary fire. While some may actually be better in some cases, like the Nami Skyla's top slide damage or the Marelok's firepower, most others are either too similar to other weapons to be considered "unique" (such as the Akstilettos or the Grinlok) or are outdone by weapons later released in the market (the Ogris and Supra.) A lot of these weapons would be more fitting in the normal market rather than requiring the additional wait and effort needed from funding research.

[Lunarsage]

pretty much all new plan tech weapons are unique.

We must have different definitions of unique.

 

-Amprex: Rehashed Synapse, which itself is a rehashed Flux Rifle. Chain lightning is mildly interesting enough that I will call it unique.

-Serro: Polearm with pure electric damage.

-Phage: This one is actually unique.

-Mutalist Quanta: Same as above.

-Grinlok: Semi-auto rifle with fancy animations.

-Jat Kittag: Polearm with fancy particle effects.

-Marelok: Semi-auto pistol with fancy animations.

-Akstiletto: Twin machine pistols with fancy animations

-Attica: Bow with no charge time and a tiny fraction of the damage.

-Castanas: It'd be unique if the Penta didn't already exist, but I'll count it.

-Nami Skyla: Dual swords rehash.

-Pyrana: Handheld Boar/full-auto Bronco.

-Sybaris: Semi-auto rifle with inefficient multishot built in.

-Venka: Unique until more weapons with the same animations come out.

-Nikana: Same as Venka.

 

Out of the 15 weapons I listed, only 6 of them I'd consider "unique" and the rest are just reskins of existing weapon types. Not even half are mildly interesting and two of them will eventually have more versions to be comparable.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Lunarsage

[Mazrim]

 

Energy Lab: Everything is complete garbage, outside of the Serro and the Amprex. WHY IS DUAL CESTRA EVEN HERE? Do you honestly expect me to believe we need the minds of an entire clan's scientists to figure out how to hold a bloody Cestra in each hand?

 

Bio Lab: What, praytell, is the Mutalist Quanta doing here. It isn't an Infested Weapon. It's a combination of Corpus and Infested tech. Outside of that, this lab is solid.

 

Chem: Let's be honest here. While none of the new Grineer weapons are bad, none of them feel different from non-research weapons either. 

 

Tenno: And here is the big problem. I get that it's a new lab that needs tech, but it really seems like a dumping bin for every new weapon now. Castanas very much feel like an Energy Lab weapon, while all of the other weapons are either exclusive melee weapon types (Nikana and Claws), or feel rather arbitrary.

 

I think you and I play a very different game. Every gun is decent if you choose to put in the effort and energy to make your weapons good. From what I read, other then silly logistics issues, is that you want more Power Creep.

 

What, Soma isn't good enough for you?

[Incursum]

The Clan Research labs lost their purpose when people started wanting just more weapons in general instead of unique weapons. And some were also complaining how most weapons were just buy, build, max and be done. It's another short-term solution which didn't quite work. To me, it just means update days were switched to Saturdays, when the research is close to done. It's no longer about wanting mastery to try out the new and interesting rocket launcher, or the DoT gun, the Acrid. They lost their flair so much it's disappointing.

 

I think you and I play a very different game. Every gun is decent if you choose to put in the effort and energy to make your weapons good. From what I read, other then silly logistics issues, is that you want more Power Creep.

 

What, Soma isn't good enough for you?

No one was talking about a weapon being good at killing stuff. Please try to understand what he's talking about before you go around talking nonsense.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Incursum

[r110platinum]

I agree. I saw the claws were released. I went into the market, clicked on the weapons tab, and clicked on melee weapons blueprints. Looked around, no venka bp, and rolled my eyes, "to the dojooooooo......."

Edited June 27, 2014 by r110platinum

[ZephyrPhantom]

Well said, and I like the constructive suggestions given the improve the current system. Take my +1.

Edited June 27, 2014 by ZephyrPhantom

[Garuger]

I think you and I play a very different game. Every gun is decent if you choose to put in the effort and energy to make your weapons good. From what I read, other then silly logistics issues, is that you want more Power Creep.

 

What, Soma isn't good enough for you?

Every gun is decent?Well have you tried spectra? no ? you may claim i did not forma it enough NOPE 4 forma and it is as useless as it came out 

[DJ_Redwire]

I would have less of a problem with weapons going to clan tech if they weren't consistently terrible weapons. 80% of clan tech are subpar weapons that need massive buffs to even be moderately comparable to market weapons. And that list of effective market weapons is miniscule. I could care less if a weapon is is clan research, but the least they could do is make the weapon's effectiveness and mechanics proportional to the amount of investment required to build the average clan tech weapon. Why are all these weapons that require specialized (and expensive) clan materials, excessive amounts of forma, and weeks of research time utter crap? It makes no sense.

Edited June 27, 2014 by DJ_Redwire