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Overhauling Un-Fun And Abusive Game Mechanics


DivisionByZero
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One longstanding problem with Warframe is the number of enemies and mechanics that are designed to take the controller (or keyboard and mouse) away from the players. There are 2 main types of un-fun/abusive game mechanics.

1)Unlimited knockdowns, stuns, and "lose all energy" mechanics. These are unfun, and when they spawn behind the player or places where they can't be dodged, just plain abusive.

2)Damage through shields. The purpose of shields and shield regeneration is to reward players for properly avoiding damage and taking cover. Health doesn't regenerate normally, so shield-ignoring damage needs to be finely-tuned to avoid becoming unfair.

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There have been many request to nerf knockdowns which always get trolled by players demanding even more difficulty. Abusive knockdowns and energy/shield drains every 5 seconds aren't difficult, they are un-fun.

Solution on how to nerf knockdowns while not trivializing enemies with knockdowns: Debuffs instead of knockdowns. Here are my ideas on how to fix un-fun knockdowns, stuns, and energy removal while not removing every challenge.

Magnetic Proc: Remove the UI scrambling. There is never any legitimate reason to ruin the UI. Instead of removing all energy and preventing energy gain, magnetic procs should cause a -100% energy efficiency penalty. (Note that this is not double energy costs, this is -100% efficiency, so with 70% efficiency, a magnetic proc would result in 130% power costs). Decrease the shield penalty to 1/2.

Corpus Laser Doors and Ancient Disrupters: Remove the knockdown and change it to a debuff that temporarily disrupts ranged weapons, decreasing ranged damage and accuracy 30%.

Radial Blast (Grineer Heavies): Change Grineer napalm/missile heavies' radial blast to cause a Weakness debuff for a few seconds instead of knockdown. This debuff would decrease melee damage 50%, decrease ranged accuracy 50%, and increase recoil 50%. Grineer heavy gunners (including Orokin corrupted) would retain the original radial blast knockdown as they have no other heavy AoE.

Toxic Ancients (knockdown attack): Remove knockdown and change it to a debuff that causes its recipient to become temporarily clumsy, decreasing reload speed 33% and movement speed 20%.

Ancient Healers (including Orokin corrupted) would retain their knockdown attack as they have no toxic aura or magnetic procs.

Grineer Scorpions: Pull ability should only cause knockdown if you are "caught off-guard": sprinting (off-balance) or zooming in (unfocused on surrounding). In addition, melee attacks should be able to parry and reverse a Grineer Scorpion's pull ability, causing the Grineer Scorpion to be pulled and knocked down instead.

Grineer Shield Lancers: Remove their ability to charge and shield bash at the same time. They would retain both abilities, however they should have to wait a few seconds after charging to shield bash, and wait a few seconds after shield bashing to charge. This means that they can be defensive or offensive, but not at the same time. Nerf the shield bash hitbox to its normal animation range (no more getting knocked down from 15 feet away)

Grineer Rollers: Remove their stagger-on-contact ability. Their smaller-than expected hitboxes and ability to roll quickly are a sufficient challenge. Increase their damage slightly.

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Nerfing Abusive Damage Through Shields:

Bleed procs: No more bleed procs through shields. Limit bleed procs to 1/3 of maximum health over total duration. It's shameful that this has never been fixed or addressed since Melee 2.0.

Toxic procs: These are inherently difficult to balance. Taking large amounts of shield-ignoring damage is bad enough; there's no need to add even more broken shield-ignoring damage. Change Toxic procs (when applied to Warframes) to a debuff that causes decreased power efficiency, power strength, movement speed, and attack speed.

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Personally, I think Bleed and Toxic procs should only apply when your shields are either very low or gone. Then it would make sense that you start bleeding or get poisoned since nothing protects you.

yet our shields arent strong enough to withstand the vacuum of space, 

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none of these changes are going to happen. maybe get some KD resistance mods/recovery mods and stay 3 feet away from infested ancients and shoot them, or perhaps pretend you are a ninja and dodge. the laser doors u can jump thru to bypass the knockdown(game is kinda parkour oriented). adding in a damage debuff to a laser door when your trying to skip to the level and avoid fighting everything is completely pointless. removing UI scrambling is no different then gettin hit with a flashbang in other games, jus 10x easier to avoid. my assumption is you may just be a newer player and not used to dealing with some of these issues. my advice is to stick in there by the time you get a feel for the game you will be grateful for anything even remotely difficult to deal with in this game, its way to easy as it is.

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the Enemy Changes are neither good or bad, they're ideas. idunno, maybe they're good, maybe they're not.

though, instead of removing almost all Knockdowns, we're probably better off changing some of them to Staggers when trying to reduce Knockdown chains.

 

though, diminishing returns on Knockdowns seems like a more likely solution, to avoid Knockdown chains. the more you're Knocked down or Staggered in a amount of time, the less effective it is. meaning, if you get Knocked down a dozen times, each one would be a bit less effective, and you'd get back up faster, little by little, or recover from a Stagger faster, little by little.

 

 

 

however, Slash / Toxin being able to Ignore Shields is critical.

this is a must. no exceptions. elsewise, Health never matters.

 

the source of the issues with Slash / Toxin, is numerous occurrences of Slash Effects in a short amount of time, and Toxin scaling out of hand (the Toxin Effect does more Damage than the Toxin itself does, and Toxin also has a +50% multiplier to Tenno, meaning Toxin gets crazy).

 

lastly. Health Orbs must be something that Enemies drop periodically. both Health and Shields are important to survival, therefore we need to be able to get more Health without using Consumables or having specific Powers with us. not constant Health Orbs, but some. Trash Units having a low chance for Health Orbs upon death, Heavy Units a moderate Chance, and Leaders a guaranteed Health Orb.

 

 

we absolutely cannot have only Shields matter to survival, Health must as well. but that doesn't mean Players must get beat up through their Shields, but Enemies being able to remind Tenno that they have Health and they are not invulnerable is very important.

Edited by taiiat
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These mechanics aren't problems. They exist so that you have to actually pay attention to the game and have some sort of situational awareness instead of running around playing god (that gets boring after a while...)

Also, your so called "fix" for Toxic damage makes no sense. Poison by definition is highly lethal, so why shouldn't it cause health damage?

Edited by Khaos_Zand3r
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The main reason health damage is a problem right now is because health orbs/healing skills are so rare. One fix would be to guarantee, or at least make extremely common, a health orb drop upon killing the enemies that cause health damage.

Edited by 10twenty4
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These mechanics aren't problems. They exist so that you have to actually pay attention to the game and have some sort of situational awareness instead of running around playing god (that gets boring after a while...)

Also, your so called "fix" for Toxic damage makes no sense. Poison by definition is highly lethal, so why shouldn't it cause health damage?

 

Any game that can only "challenge" the player by arbitrarily removing their ability to play it has fundamental issues. It's the sort of tactic I expect of a five-year old.

 

Also, nitpick time - Poison refers to something swallowed, we're not chowing down on the stuff for breakfast. Second, it's logically inconsistent right alongside bleed, considering shields protect against vacuum and heat.

 

Nevermind that depending on the enemy, it's cheap and unfun and locks out playstyles the developers themselves have touted.

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Going thru with the changes you suggested would downright murder anything remotely resembling difficulty in this game....

 

It would remove most methods that enemies have to punish players.Hell, the infested are already helpless against the players superior speed and melee damage.

 

We are capable of making abilities spamable and energy cheap via corrupted mods.Energy orbs drop EVERYWHERE especially in this aoe-friendly game that's full of cheap fodder zerg-type enemies that have strength in numbers.We can downright spam infinite energy power-ups.

 

Knockdowns?Learn to NOT stand still while shooting or look where you are going before complaining about the big mean corpus laser door!The infested are a MELEE faction.It should be expected for players to get knocked on their backs if they don't block a few attacks.

 

Any game that can only "challenge" the player by arbitrarily removing their ability to play it has fundamental issues. It's the sort of tactic I expect of a five-year old.

 

Also, nitpick time - Poison refers to something swallowed, we're not chowing down on the stuff for breakfast. Second, it's logically inconsistent right alongside bleed, considering shields protect against vacuum and heat.

 

Nevermind that depending on the enemy, it's cheap and unfun and locks out playstyles the developers themselves have touted.

Yes so not being capable of dodging an attack(disruptors, rollers, etc) or not rushing with mach-10(even then you can copter thru corpus doors without a knockdown) and actually shooting a camera once in a while "removes the ability to play"?

 

 

Knockdowns and energy restores are the FEW things in this game that are capable of keeping players on edge.And no actually having something to watch out for once in a while in a video game is NOT "un-fun".

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Yes so not being capable of dodging an attack(disruptors, rollers, etc) or not rushing with mach-10(even then you can copter thru corpus doors without a knockdown) and actually shooting a camera once in a while "removes the ability to play"?

 

 

Knockdowns and energy restores are the FEW things in this game that are capable of keeping players on edge.And no actually having something to watch out for once in a while in a video game is NOT "un-fun".

 

Which doesn't actually refute what I've said.

 

And a big chunk of the effects in question actually lock out an entire playstyle the developers themselves touted (hint, it precludes shooting and requires getting close). The fact the enemies aren't particularly fun to fight is probably one of the big reasons why people rush to begin with.

 

On the same vein, a good chunk of the effects are actually unavoidable depending on circumstances; e.g. Mag Eximi camping elevators since the aura doesn't require LoS. Any "challenge" that can't be avoided solely via player skill is anything but.

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Which doesn't actually refute what I've said.

 

And a big chunk of the effects in question actually lock out an entire playstyle the developers themselves touted (hint, it precludes shooting and requires getting close). The fact the enemies aren't particularly fun to fight is probably one of the big reasons why people rush to begin with.

 

On the same vein, a good chunk of the effects are actually unavoidable depending on circumstances; e.g. Mag Eximi camping elevators since the aura doesn't require LoS. Any "challenge" that can't be avoided solely via player skill is anything but.

I wholeheartedly agree. Whenever one of these posts comes up everyone who disagrees says the exact same thing: you can avoid these things using X, Y, and Z. What people don't realize is that something can be overly powerful and still have, and usually does have, glaring weaknesses/counters. Listing those weaknesses does not say anything about the balance of that mechanism.

 

(Similarly, listing something's strengths then saying "L2P nub" doesn't really do anything either. I see that all the time in the Warframe Abilities and Weapons sections.)

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They are fun and not abusive by any means cuz...opinions.

Do you want to level an actual argument to support your opinion or are you just going to hid behind "Lol that's your opinion man" as if it held any kind of validity?

 

Because in a discussion on game design, opinions without a supporting argument isn't worth addressing in any way. But here's why you and your "opinion" are wrong; Stuns, knockdowns, and the Energy/Shield loss proc do not have counter-play. Now I know what you're thinking, "like, why don't you, like, shoot them before it hits you/goes off," and in thinking such you have made the one crucial mistake of arguing about game design: you assumed the players are omniscient, or that the entire game is an open field in which a player always has perfect line of sight to the things that cause them. Neither of these represent the reality of play, therefore we cannot actually assume that the player will be able to shoot them the moment they spawn and thus must consider the interaction themselves. What warning do we have a Grinner Commander is about to teleport us and stun us for like almost 2 seconds? Nothing. Therefore the Grinner Commander's teleport has no counterplay, as you could be doing everything "right" but have an enemy spawn behind you thus resulting in your death before you even realize anything's there. There's a similar problem with the ancient's, as when we see the windup for their knockdown slap, what options do we have to avoid or negate it? Well really the only option is "block it", which means we must have a melee weapon out and for the most part, there's no good reason to have a melee weapon out for any reason short of it being the only rank 30 weapon you have. So for most players, there isn't an option to avoid or negate the attack at a moment's notice (as again we are looking at the interaction itself because player's are not omniscient, and the game does not take place in an open field where the enemy can come from only one direction, thus we must consider the interaction an inevitability). What about the Energy and Shield drain? Same deal, there is nothing a player can do to negate or avoid the interaction, therefore there's not counterplay involved in dealing with it thus there is not skill in dealing with them.

 

tl;dr: When considering the reality of play, we have to assume all interactions are inevitable as the player does not control what spawns or where it spawns while in mission, and in looking at the interactions, there is no meaningful way for a skilled player to avoid or nulify these effects, thus they are abusive.

 

 

Going thru with the changes you suggested would downright murder anything remotely resembling difficulty in this game....

 

It would remove most methods that enemies have to punish players.Hell, the infested are already helpless against the players superior speed and melee damage.

When your "difficulty" is entirely based around removing player agency as a means of punishment you don't actually have any difficulty. This isn't a rebuttal.

 

We are capable of making abilities spamable and energy cheap via corrupted mods.Energy orbs drop EVERYWHERE especially in this aoe-friendly game that's full of cheap fodder zerg-type enemies that have strength in numbers.We can downright spam infinite energy power-ups.

Sounds like a problem with the backend math, without doing a complete teardown and rebuild of how warframe powers work this is INCAPABLE of changing.

 

Knockdowns?Learn to NOT stand still while shooting or look where you are going before complaining about the big mean corpus laser door!The infested are a MELEE faction. It should be expected for players to get knocked on their backs if they don't block a few attacks.

 

Yes so not being capable of dodging an attack(disruptors, rollers, etc) or not rushing with mach-10(even then you can copter thru corpus doors without a knockdown) and actually shooting a camera once in a while "removes the ability to play"?

Scroll up and see my response to Nkomo for what the actual problem is and why your point of view is wrong.

 

 

Knockdowns and energy restores are the FEW things in this game that are capable of keeping players on edge.And no actually having something to watch out for once in a while in a video game is NOT "un-fun".

They also are completely one-sided mechanics, that don't represent any kind of depth to play, and are thus could be replaced with a random mission-wide knockdown or energy removal as a passive effect.

Edited by Zeful
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Guest Tehnoobshow

You can ROLL through laser doors to avoid most of the damage and not get knocked down. You can ROLL before a shock wave or a rocket hits you to not get knocked down. Just because you forgot about one button doesn't mean everyone has.

Also, keep in mind that we use Toxin and Bleed procs too. If they couldn't kill then Ash's Blade Storm would become useless again and Saryn would be even more useless.

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Also, nitpick time - Poison refers to something swallowed, we're not chowing down on the stuff for breakfast. Second, it's logically inconsistent right alongside bleed, considering shields protect against vacuum and heat.

This is actually a toxin though, not a poison. Which works simply on contact or absorption in to body tissue.

 

You can ROLL through laser doors to avoid most of the damage and not get knocked down. You can ROLL before a shock wave or a rocket hits you to not get knocked down. Just because you forgot about one button doesn't mean everyone has.

Good catch! Although the shockwaves come out a little fast to accurately be dodge. You're more baiting the shock wave to be dodged through than reacting to it. 

 

The problem with Warframe is that nothing can protect itself from you. Which degrades gameplay in to an ordered set of priority targets. The enemy is dead within seconds, or stops you from using your choices, but nothing makes your choices matter in its defeat. 

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This video expresses the difference between Challenge and Punishment in games, and how punishment is not the way to go: 

 

The reason people think these Agency Stealing attacks are a Challenge is because it's all the enemies have against us; this all needs a rework. Some enemies need additional things to keep them alive, not punish us players. Agency Stealing, Rule-Negating Damage and Effects, and Unavoidable Attacks all need reworked, and Enemy Survivability, Variance, and Synergy need buffing.

 

Seriously, I look back to the first moments I played Warframe. The funnest I had was when I first fought the Corpus. Why? It took thought; Shoot down the Ospreys to make the Crewmen and Moas vulnerable. Now the Ospreys are usually only a slight chance to determine if it'll take either one shot or two to kill a crewman. This is a simultaneous example of unit Synergy and Survivability, which was both fun and challenging, and it didn't take stealing my controls to achieve.

 

Nowadays, I only die in the higher rank levels or because an attack negated my controls.

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