Azamagon Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) Meleeing is still in dire need of improvements, despite Melee 2.0 and its whole bunch of additions. To not sound too longwinded, let's analyze it in listform! Situation: * Mobility is a big issue for most melee weapons (their animations often make you unable to move freely) * Stamina is mostly just annoying, rather than an interesting resource * Channeling mods mostly suck, generally due to them having penalties * Gunmode contra Meleemode are a bit too different from one another (gamepace-reduction) * Stances... why are they MODS and not actual Stances? * Some weapon categories are named and sorted weirdly (Machetes, Dual Swords and Axes) * Some of the weaponskins change the model of the weapon... which makes them really odd (Manticore is an AXE?!) * Combos are mostly fine (imo), but could go with more intuitive inputs / effects. * Blocking to get the "counterstun" (so you can do a riposte, aka a counterfinisher) is based on RNG * Reflex Guard can be detrimental to your actions (it locks you in blocking) * Aerial combat is heavily lacking * Distanceclosing, on top of the other mobilityissues, is subpar or nonexistant. * Finishers have a bunch of silly inconsistencies (more to that in its improvement) and are hard to control * And a bunch of other stuff... Let's try and solve these things! * MOBILITY * Fixing the overall mobilityissues is kinda easy - Let us move around freely while attacking, don't let the animations root us in place! Some weapons (like Whips and Heavy weapons) maybe shouldn't have FULL movementspeed while attacking, but SOME would be nice * STAMINA * Fixing stamina requires a bit more effort though. Here's what I'd do: 1) Sprinting and regular melee attacks can cost NO stamina (read on please...) 2) Channeling costs STAMINA rather than energy. 3) Blocking still costs stamina of course 4) Rolling as well as evading (the stuff you can do while aiming) should still cost stamina, but could provide you with a brief, but high, damagereduction so they actually serve a purpose 5) Wallrunning could still also cost stamina, but if so, then it should make enemies more prone to miss you 6) Pressing Jump while knocked down while get you up very fast (in a handspring fashion), but this costs a big chunk of stamina That way, you use Stamina only for two purposes: Defense (block/roll/evade/handpsring) or Melee enhancement (channeling). This would make Stamina a more interesting resource to manage rather than something you are just annoyed by. Considering everything above, I guess base Stamina regen (and Stamina mods) could be nerfed a bit? * CHANNELING MODS * These mods are extremely inconsistent and downright bad to use. They have penalties despite not being Corrupted mods, they have penalties despite already taking up a modslot AND costing energy to be used. How I'd rebalance them * Second Wind - Remove its penalty and untie it COMPLETELY from channeling. Simply make it like it used to be (Melee kill = Some stamina granted to you) * Warrior's Grip - Remove its penalty and untie it COMPLETELY from channeling by simply making it a mod that makes blocking more stamina-efficient! (Like 5% blocking efficency per rank or so?) * True Punishment - Remove its penalty, possibly buff its bonus as well (15 to 25% per rank, up from 10?)? * Enduring Strike - Remove its penalty, possibly buff its bonus as well (15% per rank, up from 10)? * Quickening - Remove its penalty, possibly buff its bonus slightly as well (10% per rank, up from 5?)? * Life Strike - Remove the penalty completely, but also nerf its lifesteal to something more balanced, like 1% of damage per rank while channeling (it is currently absolutely overkill to even level it up, its unranked 5% is more than enough) * Corrupt Charge - Keep the penalty due to ACTUALLY being a Corrupted mod (maybe reduce it slightly and/or boost its channeling damage bonus?) * Killing Blow + Reflex Coil + Focus Energy - Could be left untouched I guess? Maybe swap the pictures of Reflex Coil and Second Wind so they are a bit more fitting? Now the channeling mods might be worthwhile... maybe! * GUNMODE AND MELEEMODE * These two modes are too different from one another. What I mean: * Gunmode lets you quickmelee as well as shoot with your ranged weapon, but you cannot block, channel nor do melee combos * Meleemode does NOT let you quickshoot with your ranged weapon, but you can block, channel and do combos. * Swapping between the two modes takes way too long. Speed Holster is just a bandaid mod that shouldn't exist. This just leads to very unfluent gameplay, not fitting Warframe's gamepace at all! So, what would I do then? * While in Meleemode you can block, channel and do combos. You can also QUICKSHOOT (requires a sidearm imo). An idea on the controls for that: Think of it as the buttons being swapped (In meleemode M1 = Melee and E = Quickshot) * While in Gunmode you can STILL block and do combos! However, you cannot channel + the blocking is not as stamina-efficient. * Swapping between the two modes should preferably be next to instant. Speed Holster needs a revamp into something actually useful (rather than being a bandaid mod). There ya go, the two combat modes are far more similar to one another (less biasm towards the gunmode) while they obviously still have their respective benefits. If Meleemode is considered to have too few benefits still, maybe a tiny sprinting bonus while in Meleemode would be in order? * STANCES * This part is probably not necessary, but I personally think it could add a whole lot more FUN and adaptability to melee combat! Has anyone played the Star Wars Jedi Knights games? Stances there were simply that, STANCES, which you could freely swap between in the midst of battle. Wouldn't it be cool if stances worked the same in Warframe, rather than being mods? Think about it, it would allow for far more adaptation in the battlefield. Let's take an example: Currently Burning Wasp is great for AoE, while Coiling Viper is better for mobility and single target DPS. What you are good at in that regard is currently dependant only on how you MOD, not so much on how you PLAY. But if you could swap between the different stances while PLAYING with just a click of the button, you could adapt to the crowds (or lack thereof) on the battlefield! Plus, if this was done, I think it would be cool if you actually stood differently in each stance (you know, because they are called STANCES :P) How would you unlock different stances and combos then? A couple of ideas: 1) Train in the dojo 2) Mastery Rank * MELEE WEAPON CATEGORIZATION AND NAMING * There are currently 3 melee categories that bother me: 1) Machetes 2) Dual Swords 3) Axes So, let's talk about them 1) Machetes Currently Machetes actually consist of Machetes, Prods and Sickles, which is a bit odd. Also, the only real Machetes are not obtainable anymore (at least the regular Machete should return as a marketweapon imo). So, why not rename this category something else? I have a hard time finding a collective name for them, so why not just simply call it something like "Machetes+Axes+Maces"? This allows for new onehanded axes and sickles (I consider sickles a subcategory of axes) and new onehanded maces, prods and other blunt weapons (I guess you can consider prods as a type of mace, no?) to be added in the future too! :) Extra note: The stealth finisher and ground finisher animations really needs a change for Machetes... it's the same backstab / downwards stab like on single swords... not fitting at all. 2) Dual Swords The above Machete issue also leads to another issue: Why does the Dual Swords category contain actual Dual Swords and Dual AXES? This is mainly an issue in regards to animations, because who on earth stabs and thrusts with non-pointy axes and sickles?? So, the suggestion: Split Dual Swords into 2 categories: Dual Swords and Dual Axes. Then you would have the different weapons sorted like this: * Dual Swords = Dual Skana, Dual Ether, Dual Heat Swords and Nami Skyla (While Nami is a Machete, it is also pointy, allowing it to be thrusted + It is wielded with a dagger in the other hand, which makes it more of a classic swashbuckling dual "swords" kind of weapon) * Dual Axes = Dual Cleavers, Dual Zoren, Dual Ichor and Dual Kamas This would necessitate that Dual Axes gets 2 new stancemods (well, more or less, as explained above in the "stances" section), with animations more focused on swipes and chops etc, removing all the thrusts and stabs. Dual Swords can remain exactly as they are (although, the counterfinisher with its dual swipe could then more easily use a stabbing animation if that is wanted! Dual Axes could use the dual swipe instead!) 3) Axes This next segment is about Axes - Not only have I already used axes in the above new naming / categories (making the name overused), but this category also currently consists of BIG axes AND big swords. So why not rename it into something more fitting? Something like 1) Greatblades or 2) Greataxes+Greatswords Sure, they could also be split up into two seperate categories (which would allow for the Greatswords to also use stabby animations here and there + Greataxes could maybe then also use the same groundfinisher as Hammers), but there are only 3 weapons in this collected category (Scindo, Gram and Galatine). That could maybe be done if there were more Greataxes and Greatswords... * WEAPONSKINS MADE INTO NEW WEAPONS * Currently, there are a bunch of melee weapons that have skins that completely change their models. Namely: * Brokk skin for Fragor * Manticore skin for Scindo * Daggeraxe skin for Scindo * Dual Daggeraxe skin for Dual Zoren What I would do is to make these skins into actual seperate WEAPONS! The reason for this is to keep all different weaponmodels as seperate weapons, to be consistent + Because the heavy weapons in particular could need more weapons + The Manticore makes no sense as an AXE-skin! So, to the actual suggestions: 1) Brokk could be a new Hammer, as an alternative to Fragor, with similar stats, but which has quite a bit of its Impact-damage moved over to Puncture instead (Impact still highest though). 2) Manticore could be another new HAMMER (doesn't fit as an Axe, seriously), also similar to Fragor in stats (or maybe something in between Fragor and Jat Kittag?), but which has even more of its Impact damage moved over to Puncture, maybe even so much that it has equal amounts of Impact and Puncture! 3) The Daggeraxe (I'd simply call it Great Daggeraxe) could be a new Axe, as an alternative to Scindo, which deals less total damage than Scindo, but swings quite a bit faster (it looks lighter than Scindo imo). I'd also give it quite a bunch of Puncture, but with Slash still being the highest damagetype. 3) The Dual Daggeraxes could be a new Dual Axe, as an alternative to Dual Zoren, with similar stats and all, but with some of its damagetype moved over to Puncture, but with Slash still being the highest damagetype. * COMBOS * Really, how are the combos, their effects and their inputs distributed? By RNG? They can't just be distributed randomly, they need some thought put into them! In short: 1) Standard spamcombos should be very basic. They shouldn't really add anything special, just be good for spamming up close. Thus: No extreme CC, like ragdolling, nor any dashes/leaps. A good, steady flow with nice speed and maybe a multihit or two in the last attacks in the combos, like a "speed crescendo" if you will, is a good standard for the spamcombos. All these points are, unfortunately, done very wrong (or even completely OPPOSITE) in most spamcombos... Too much CC, too much dashing around and way too much "speed diminuendo". 2) Forward combos should be about adding mobility, like leaps and dashes. That just makes too much sense, really... 3) Hold combos (at least if the Hold input is later in the combo) should add the most, since they are the hardest to pull off. Great AoE, power and/or CC, preferably all 3 at once! Hold combos should preferably not add too much mobility though, since that can make them too hard to use up close. 4) Block and pause combos can be the wildcard combos (preferably with pause being slightly more rewarding than block, since it's slightly more difficult to pull off than block combos). They can add anything, really, since they are fairly easy to execute. Mobility, CC, Power, AoE, Speed/Multihitting, doesn't really matter. Just not too much at once (at least not for block combos). All backwards combos should be removed though, imo, as they are just detrimental to combat (since you wanna catch up with enemies, not back away from them). * BLOCKING * Blocking currently is quite nice, except for one part of it: Getting the "counterstun" (so you can riposte, aka, do the counterfinisher) is based on RNG... So what to do? Make it timingbased, meaning if you parry within 0,5 seconds or so before the attack lands on you, the target has a 100% chance to get counterstunned . That is not my personal favourite (I'd make it 100% chance always) due to two things: Lag issues and gap closing (I mean, you should preferably already be blocking while closing the distance, no?) So thus I propose two suggestions: 1) The popular one = Timingbased blocking + The Parry mod could make the timingwindow bigger (Like 0.15 seconds leeway per rank or so) + Warrior's Grip grants blocking efficiency. 2) My own opinion = Blocking a melee attack ALWAYS does the counterstun + The Parry mod grants blocking efficiency + Warrior's Grip grants you a (5% per rank) chance when blocking which makes the block free of staminacost (or vice versa for the mods' effects) I guess this is the most popular choice (rather than based on my own opinion, as I would make it 100% chance to counterstun + Parry is the blocking efficiency mod + Warrior's Grip gets a different revamp to it). * REFLEX GUARD * Reflex Guard can currently be a PENALTY to use, by interrupting your actions and whatnot, rather than actually saving you. So this change is rather simple: Make it a bit more "Matrix-style": When Reflex Guard procs, the blocking-animation is done with a blurry effect (like if you were so fast it almost looked like you briefly summoned a copy of yourself to protect you!), which doesn't interrupt your actions whatsoever + make this proc cost NO stamina (which makes it useful even when you are manually blocking). This would probably justify nerfing it a bit though (3% chance per rank, rather than 5%). I think that would make it a REALLY useful, albeit still gambly, protective mod! :) * AERIAL COMBAT * There is currently no simple way to attack enemies up higher in the air with a melee weapon. A rather simple fix too, really: * Jump + Tap Melee = Do an aerial slash / strike, similar to wallattacks * Jump + Hold Melee = Do the current slam-attack Tadaaa! More options, more variety and a way to deal with stuff above you! * DISTANCECLOSING (SLIDEATTACKS) * What we have currently for distanceclosing, besides specific Warframe powers, is the slideattacks. But they are also highly inconsistent for that as some weapons (like Heavies and Fistweapons) don't get you very far, while others (Most others) often takes you way too far forward (COPTERING WOO!) On top of that, some weapons suck in AoE with slideattacks (like Fistweapons), while most are great at it. The idea to fix the above issues is quite "simple" though. In short: 1) Slide + Tap melee = A more AoE-like slideattack, like most of them are currently, but with less focus on forward momentum (more akin to slideattack in Melee 1.0) 2) Slide + HOLD melee = A more thrustlike slideattack which is your main longrange distanceclosing slideattack (it propels you further), but stops you from travelling further if you hit a target, making it great for the purpose of engaging targets in melee. This would allow ALL weapons to be used for medium range / AoE (the tap one) AND for distanceclosing / travelling purposes (the hold one). Some more thorough proposals, so it fits all weapons: 1) The slide + tap one would not need much changing, except for lowering the momentum of most weapons, so its purpose is more as a mediumrange aoe-swipe rather than for travelling around. Most weapons wouldn't need changing animation-wise, but there are a few groups of weapons that could need a bit of a help here: a) Sparring weapons (Kogake+Obex) - To make it more AoE-like, instead of simply doing the downward vault kick, how about making the right leg first do a sweeping kick, which goes diagonally upwards and leftwards, which grants the Warframe momentum to spin and do the vaultkick, albeit a bit differently: Instead of a straight downwards kick, the left leg will now kick downwards and leftwards. This would keep its essence as an awesome kick with a flip in it, but would be way better for aoe-ing purposes. b) Claws and Fist weapons (Venka, Ankyros etc) - Before the lefthanded uppercut, how about a wide righthanded backhand? You are already spinning around, so doing a backhand right before the uppercut would be fitting + helps making it more AoE-like 2) The slide + hold one would be very simple: For most weapons, it means you thrust with the weapon. For claws, sparring and fist weapons, you could simply be doing a forward straight punch (similar to the wallattack). This attack would have more momentum, more similar to the current Zorencoptering kind of mobility that we have now. To make it more useful for actual distanceclosing against enemies, it would be very good if the attack STOPPED if the attack connects with a target (so you don't keep going really far and end up far past the target). * FINISHERS * These are just some gripes about the different finishers and their inconsistancies: * Ground finisher - Generally good and strong. * Counter finisher - Strong + You are invulnerable for the duration of it + Knocks the target down * Stealth finisher - Strong... and that's it. How about making them more consistent? So: * Ground finisher - Strong and invulnerable for the duration of it * Counter finisher - Strong + You are invulnerable for the duration of it + Knocks the target down * Stealth finisher - Strong + You are invulnerable for the duration of it + Knocks the target down On top of that, how about making their inputs more of a CHOICE, rather than something FORCED? What I mean is, make each of these finishers triggered by the action-button (Default key: X)! This would make finishers more worthwhile and controllable, something I think all of us want! * OTHER STUFF * Some minor things: * Reflection - Shouldn't this maybe be a MELEE mod, rather than a Warframe one? * Acrobat - (Related to Meleeing in form of defense), what if it also made rolling and evading more stamina-efficient (although that would require a bit of a nerf to its numbers I guess?) Edited September 27, 2014 by Azamagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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