Antitoxin's True Value -- It's Two Third Of The Original Value!

[Twilight053]

In practice, the percentage of the Antitoxin resistance does not truly represent the damage it resists. For example, having a fully modded Antitoxin (45%) will only resist 30  Toxin damage out of 100.

 

The reason of this is because of how Warframe's health are composed of Flesh, all Warframes are weak to  Toxin damage and receives bonus damage of 50% from that source. Therefore, by default all Warframes will receive 150% damage from  Toxin source.

 

Using the Antitoxin mod will reduce the bonus damage inflicted linearly instead of multiplicatively. For example, using a fully upgraded Antitoxin (45%) will total the odds between the resisted damage and the original damage by (150%-45%):150% = 105%:150%, or 70%:100%, or 7:10. Therefore, it can be concluded that all Warframe with fully modded Antitoxin only resists 30% instead of 45% of  Toxin damage, which determines the Toxin Resistance's True Value formula to be:

 

     True Value ≈ Value*2/3

 

EVIDENCE:

Test 1 - Dual Ichor against unmodded Mag: 31 damage (http://puu.sh/bYYU3/a77b75c29e.jpg)

Test 2 - Dual Ichor against Mag with Rank 5 Antitoxin: 21 damage (http://puu.sh/bYZ6M/3e145953f7.jpg)

 

So, we have:

     BasePercentage-ResistedPercentage = ResistanceInPractice

     100%-(21/31 * 100%) = 100% - 68% = 32%

 

And if we compare the Resistance In Practice with Theoritical Resistance (30%)...

     ResistanceInPractice : TheoriticalResistance

     32% : 30%

 

 

Do not be fooled by the description, people -- It's weaker than you think!

Edited October 4, 2014 by Twilight053

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

Well considering it's a Band Aid Mod in the first place (along with all resistance mods), i don't suppose it would actually work properly

Edited July 1, 2014 by (PS4)kiddplay13

[Tsukinoki]

Nein, the damage you resisted are reduced linearly, not multiplicatively. I tried it out myself ingame you can try it yourself in return.

What exact behavior are you expecting?

It does resist the 45% damage that it says.

Nothing is misleading about it at all.

Lets take the example 100 damage.

We are weak to toxin at 50%.

100 damage would now deal 150 damage.

So we equip our antitoxin mod.

We now reduce that damage by 45%.

150-(150*.45) = 82.5

Another way to look at this:

(100-(100*.45))*1.5 = 82.5

 

The damage is now 55% of the damage we would have otherwise suffered.

Please explain in detail exactly what you were expecting the mod to do.

I have tested this in a clan dojo using the embolist for pure toxic damage against a banshee, armor of 15, to avoid having armor reduce the damage more.

And in every single test the damage when they had the antitoxin mod was only 55% of the damage without the antitoxin mod.

EDIT:

Honest question here:

Were you expecting it to completely negate the 50% weakness and then subtract a further 45% from the damage you take?

Edited July 1, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[Nkomo-Sama]

I like this thread cuz math is involved.

[.Talia.]

Why are tenno health/resistances nowhere in the game itself.

Why.

 

Should be in the codex, right?

[CandyDragon]

Resistance mods, only useful at the point just before they become useless again.

 

They simply cannot mitigate enough to matter. If you are getting hit with said element type you are doing something very wrong. 

[Fire_Ashes]

Hopefully after this is fixed Antitioxin and the others will be viable options. Good catch OP!

[RealPandemonium]

Hopefully after this is fixed Antitioxin and the others will be viable options. Good catch OP!

Antitoxin is not "broken" in the way the OP describes but it is weird that it maxes at 45% instead of the usual 60, especially when Tenno take 50% more damage from it in the first place. 

[Tsukinoki]

@RealPandemonium
As far as I can guess is I think OP is thinking that the resistance mod works like this:
<base damage> * (1 + (weakness - resistances)) = final damage

And through repeated testing in the dojo I have proved that *false*.
Pure toxic damage with the resistance mod on it is dealing less damage than the base damage of the weapon, instead of 5% higher than the base damage.

The OP doesn't seem to understand how damage is calculated.
The damage is not calculated like this:
<base damage> * (1 + (weakness - resistances))
With numbers used above that would be:
100 * (1 + (0.50 - 0.45)) = 105
This is the wrong formula.

The damage is calculated like this:
<base damage> * (1 + weakness) = <modded damage>
<modded damage> * (1 - resistance) = final damage
With the numbers used above it would be:
100 * (1 + 0.5) = 150
150 * (1 - 0.45) = 82.5
Another way to look at it would be:
(<base damage> - (<base damage> * resistance)) * (1 + weakness) = final damage
With the numbers used above it would be:
(100 - (100 * 0.45)) * (1 + 0.50) = 82.5

The antitoxin mod effect is applied to the *final* damage your frame would take.
Not directly to the weakness of your frame.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[RealPandemonium]

explanation

Now I get it.  Thanks for clearing that up, hopefully for both parties.

Edited July 1, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[ServareVitas]

A good thread. It is deceptive in it's true value but is never the less quite useful. I often take it on infested defenses/survivals. Shame it doesn't help our sentinels though :/ 

[Twilight053]

@RealPandemonium

As far as I can guess is I think OP is thinking that the resistance mod works like this:

<base damage> * (1 + (weakness - resistances)) = final damage

And through repeated testing in the dojo I have proved that *false*.

Pure toxic damage with the resistance mod on it is dealing less damage than the base damage of the weapon, instead of 5% higher than the base damage.

The OP doesn't seem to understand how damage is calculated.

The damage is not calculated like this:

<base damage> * (1 + (weakness - resistances))

With numbers used above that would be:

100 * (1 + (0.50 - 0.45)) = 105

This is the wrong formula.

The damage is calculated like this:

<base damage> * (1 + weakness) = <modded damage>

<modded damage> * (1 - resistance) = final damage

With the numbers used above it would be:

100 * (1 + 0.5) = 150

150 * (1 - 0.45) = 82.5

Another way to look at it would be:

(<base damage> - (<base damage> * resistance)) * (1 + weakness) = final damage

With the numbers used above it would be:

(100 - (100 * 0.45)) * (1 + 0.50) = 82.5

The antitoxin mod effect is applied to the *final* damage your frame would take.

Not directly to the weakness of your frame.

And here I thought the Antitoxin was applied directly to the resistance stats. Will test this on dojo and mutalist later, sleepy.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Twilight053

[Kartumterek]

What exact behavior are you expecting?

It does resist the 45% damage that it says.

Nothing is misleading about it at all.

Lets take the example 100 damage.

We are weak to toxin at 50%.

100 damage would now deal 150 damage.

So we equip our antitoxin mod.

We now reduce that damage by 45%.

150-(150*.45) = 82.5

Another way to look at this:

(100-(100*.45))*1.5 = 82.5

 

The damage is now 55% of the damage we would have otherwise suffered.

Please explain in detail exactly what you were expecting the mod to do.

I have tested this in a clan dojo using the embolist for pure toxic damage against a banshee, armor of 15, to avoid having armor reduce the damage more.

And in every single test the damage when they had the antitoxin mod was only 55% of the damage without the antitoxin mod.

EDIT:

Honest question here:

Were you expecting it to completely negate the 50% weakness and then subtract a further 45% from the damage you take?

OP doesn't know enough about damage application and mitigation in the game so yes, he expected the mod to disregard the extra damage we take from the element. He's isn't the only one either as evidenced by the replies here

[Tulzscha]

Moved to the proper section.

[Twilight053]

I'll be researching this soon.

Edited October 4, 2014 by Twilight053

[Twilight053]

@RealPandemonium

As far as I can guess is I think OP is thinking that the resistance mod works like this:

<base damage> * (1 + (weakness - resistances)) = final damage

And through repeated testing in the dojo I have proved that *false*.

Pure toxic damage with the resistance mod on it is dealing less damage than the base damage of the weapon, instead of 5% higher than the base damage.

The OP doesn't seem to understand how damage is calculated.

The damage is not calculated like this:

<base damage> * (1 + (weakness - resistances))

With numbers used above that would be:

100 * (1 + (0.50 - 0.45)) = 105

This is the wrong formula.

The damage is calculated like this:

<base damage> * (1 + weakness) = <modded damage>

<modded damage> * (1 - resistance) = final damage

With the numbers used above it would be:

100 * (1 + 0.5) = 150

150 * (1 - 0.45) = 82.5

Another way to look at it would be:

(<base damage> - (<base damage> * resistance)) * (1 + weakness) = final damage

With the numbers used above it would be:

(100 - (100 * 0.45)) * (1 + 0.50) = 82.5

The antitoxin mod effect is applied to the *final* damage your frame would take.

Not directly to the weakness of your frame.

 

Recent testing with my clanmate shows that your theory is incorrect.

 

First of all, these are the results of the first experiment. This was done with a Dual Ichor with a Rank 5 Pressure Point against a Mag without antitoxin mod. Result says 31 damage.

 

Pic: http://puu.sh/bYYU3/a77b75c29e.jpg

 

The second test was done with a Dual Ichor with a Rank 5 Pressure Point against the same Mag, but with Rank 5 Antitoxin Mod. The results, as calculated, says 21 damage.

 

Pic: http://puu.sh/bYZ6M/3e145953f7.jpg

 

Supposedly according to your theory, Antitoxin will resist 45% of the damage. Yet, the resistance percentage shown in the testing completely differs than that. Here are the calculation: 

 

     BaseDamage-ResistedDamage = ResistanceInPractice

     100%-(21/31 * 100%) = 100% - 68% = 32%

 

And so, the damage it resisted was nowhere close near 45%. However, if we were to suppose with my theory, Antitoxin will resist two third of the original value, which is 30% of the damage. See where I'm getting? Although the damage percentages aren't exact, it is definitely leaning towards 30%, which is from my theory.

 

In conclusion: The antitoxin mod effect is not applied to the final damage your frame would take. Instead, directly to the weakness percentage of your frame.

Edited October 4, 2014 by Twilight053

[Darzk]

Assuming that the dojo damages are representative (doing 31 instead of ~95), Twilight053 is correct. Seems that the damage reduction is calculated before the damage resistance and then subtracted from the total after damage resistance is applied.

 

Etc: hitting for 20.5 base; AT removes 9.225 damage; 20.5 base becomes 30.75 damage minus the 9.225 from AT = 21.5 damage, as listed. Then the dr value is only (1-21/31)=32.25%.

 

Tsukinoki's post is how I'd expect it to be calculated, but it doesn't seem to be acting that way in game.

 

 

 

I encourage interested parties to post SS's rather than positing theories without proof of any kind.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Darzk

[Twilight053]

Assuming that the dojo damages are representative (doing 31 instead of ~116), Twilight053 is correct. Seems that the damage reduction is calculated before the damage resistance and then subtracted from the total after damage resistance is applied.

 

Etc: hitting for 20.5 base; AT removes 9.225 damage; 20.5 base becomes 30.75 damage minus the 9.225 from AT = 21.5 damage, as listed. Then the dr value is only (1-21/31)=32.25%.

 

Tsukinoki's post is how I'd expect it to be calculated, but it doesn't seem to be acting that way in game.

 

 

 

I encourage interested parties to post SS's rather than positing theories without proof of any kind.

There were somewhere in the patch note that nerfed Toxin Damage to a certain degree in PvP, hence why the damage is so little.

[RobWasHere]

Remember about tiny amount of armor (except Valkitty) that every frame have.

[Andoryuu]

 

Remember about tiny amount of armor (except Valkitty) that every frame have.

Armour doesn't matter because its reduction is applied multiplicatively and both compared numbers are reduced by the same amount. Thus their ratio isn't changed.


But I've got different idea. What if the resistance from antitoxin is calculated as damage / (1 + %)? For example with maxed AT it would be damage / 1.45, which is closer to 32% reduction observed by Twilight. But it could just be caused by rounding.
Best rank to test it would be rank 2 (22.5%) as at this point there is biggest difference between those two theories. Applied to Twilight's data that would make slightly more than one point of damage. Of course, if you turn it up to eleven and use Ichor with Pressure Point, Spoiled Strike and full toxic, it should give you much higher damage with bigger difference.

 

Tested it, Twilight's theory is right.

89 damage without AT, 76 with 2r AT. Twi's theory predicts 75.65, my 72.65.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Andoryuu

[LazyKnight]

I would bet they are just using the same player damage reduction method used in Border Lands 2. Unless you can find an exception to the evidence that you have provided, it should be similar to: Incoming Damage/(1+damage resistant on the card)= damage received.

 

I do not know if the OP has tested incoming damage from an NPC (not sure what one could be tested).

Edited October 23, 2014 by LazyKnight