Why Are Kubrows More Important Than Fixing The Core Gameplay Elements Of Warframe?

[dragonboss]

I don't know, some people playing warframe are just content with things being mediocre at best. I had extremely high hopes for this game when I got in closed beta, and basically advertised to anyone who plays games that I knew.

 

A year plus down the line, the entire parkour system is still glitchy and weird, melee is still not great even with melee 2.0 (the 'combos' are a joke), the evasion system does nothing basically, especially the backflip, enemies still have 100% hit-scan accuracy at all ranges, real stealth is still close to non-existent  and the power creep is creeping way up there into the range of just plain ridiculous. I even stopped playing for a while because the game wasn’t improving much after open beta, but I play from time to time cause I got a PS4.

 

A lot of people just play the game as a generic shooter and feel the 'ninja' parts are just extras, instead of looking at the massive and mostly wasted potential this game has.

 

Warframe should basically be a combination of Ninja Gaiden(melee and movement), Vanquish(shooting and movement), MGS(stealth and story) and with some MMORPG elements thrown in for good measure.

Edited June 30, 2014 by dragonboss

[unknow99]

I don't know, some people playing warframe are just content with things being mediocre at best. I had extremely high hopes for this game when I got in closed beta, and basically advertised to anyone who plays games that I knew.

 

A year plus down the line, the entire parkour system is still glitchy and weird, melee is still not great even with melee 2.0 (the 'combos' are a joke), the evasion system does nothing basically, especially the backflip, enemies still have 100% hit-scan accuracy at all ranges, real stealth is still close to non-existent  and the power creep is creeping way up there into the range of just plain ridiculous. I even stopped playing for a while because the game wasn’t improving much after open beta, but is play from time to time cause I got a PS4.

 

A lot of people just play the game as a generic shooter and feel the 'ninja' parts are just extras, instead of looking at the massive and mostly wasted potential this game has.

 

Warframe should basically be a combination of Ninja Gaiden(melee and movement), Vanquish(shooting and movement), MGS(stealth and story) and with some MMORPG elements thrown in for good measure.

Even if I have more hope than you, I couldn't agree more... Stealth,the ninja feeling,parkour & moves in general...

 

[Mazrim]

Stop thinking of Warframe as a Ninja game and start thinking of it as Death Squad Simulator 2013.

[locojuan]

lets build a house.

option 1: make x amount of rooms, of x size. house is done. now lets add that pool table we always wanted to have.... woopps, it wont fit, players have space troubles.

option 2: what do we want to have in our house? a pool table!! lets get one, try it out and see how much room it takes, then we build the room based on it.

am i even close DE?

[Pixydis]

Old bugs are old... so old that they seem like features now.

People simply crave for NEW FLASHY SHINY things that will bring back the thrills people experienced at the beginning of their journey...

[Furyion]

seperate departments . and power creep is natural to all games.sigh.

[Lockjock]

 

 

The way you worded it sounded like whining to be honest. Instead why not say "Hey, We have Kubrow's coming soon, but what about X, Y, Z, things that are still broken? Conclaves are still imbalanced, half of our melee weapons are mastery fodder, ect."

you insult people not how you start a agrument

Edited July 1, 2014 by Lockjock

[ItalianPlumber]

power creep is natural to all games

Still doesn't mean it should be left to run rampant. That's like saying eating isn't a problem because everyone has to.

[Nitresco]

I don't think we need an entire company of people working on fixing bugs. With how the departments are split now, I feel perfectly satiated knowing major updates come with both a ton of new content and major bug fixes. Any bugs the new content brings along with it seem to get fixed not too long after, regardless.

[Weird_Stealth]

I'd appreciate more bug fixes so much more than any of those above.

Dude, just because bug fixes aren't on that list, does not mean that they aren't working on bug fixes, it's annoying how everyone and their dog believes that all the developers do is create new things, and never bug fixes, like all of those people on the development team are all programmers. Now if we was talking an Indy team, I'd hazard a guess and say most of them might have some knowledge of programming, BUT we're not, we're talking about DE, which have many different teams, with people who have have many different knowledge and skill sets, some of which don't include programming, THUS what's the point of demanding that DE focus on bug fixes, and ONLY fixing bugs. To please those of us who only care about bug fixes? What about those of us who are more worried about the new user experience, or the lack of interest of playing? 

 

Now I'm not saying DE shouldn't focus on debugging the game, there's countless bugs in the game that not only bother the player base, bug the developers as well. I understand why people think/believe that DE isn't doing anything to fix these bugs because DE doesn't mention them, nor do they say "Hey, we've been hard at work at fixing these bugs", and with the consent content releases and lack of player base knowledge of progress of bug fixes means a great unknown to people. But unlike most people I also realize that there's reasons behind why DE hasn't said "This bug will be fixed in the next update!" or "This bug will be fixed/solved in Update 14", it runs along the same lines as stating Update 14 will be released on a set date. They can't be sure that'll be a 100% chance it'll happen, until it happens. Plus there's also the fact that some bug fixing isn't as simple as some of us may believe. 

 

Granted that most of you know, or at least should know that with every single content update, there's also bug fixes, and the major updates, like Update 12, 13, and 14, there's a very long list of fixes, and most of time there's just as many fixes as there are additions. My point is that even tho DE_Rebecca has stated a small list of changes/additions to the game, does not mean they're not not working on those bug fixes.

[Ishki88]

I think they are put all the efforts in this game, we need to put our patience. 

[Taikaponi]

Dude, just because bug fixes aren't on that list, does not mean that they aren't working on bug fixes, it's annoying how everyone and their dog believes that all the developers do is create new things, and never bug fixes, like all of those people on the development team are all programmers. Now if we was talking an Indy team, I'd hazard a guess and say most of them might have some knowledge of programming, BUT we're not, we're talking about DE, which have many different teams, with people who have have many different knowledge and skill sets, some of which don't include programming, THUS what's the point of demanding that DE focus on bug fixes, and ONLY fixing bugs. To please those of us who only care about bug fixes? What about those of us who are more worried about the new user experience, or the lack of interest of playing? 

 

Now I'm not saying DE shouldn't focus on debugging the game, there's countless bugs in the game that not only bother the player base, bug the developers as well. I understand why people think/believe that DE isn't doing anything to fix these bugs because DE doesn't mention them, nor do they say "Hey, we've been hard at work at fixing these bugs", and with the consent content releases and lack of player base knowledge of progress of bug fixes means a great unknown to people. But unlike most people I also realize that there's reasons behind why DE hasn't said "This bug will be fixed in the next update!" or "This bug will be fixed/solved in Update 14", it runs along the same lines as stating Update 14 will be released on a set date. They can't be sure that'll be a 100% chance it'll happen, until it happens. Plus there's also the fact that some bug fixing isn't as simple as some of us may believe. 

 

Granted that most of you know, or at least should know that with every single content update, there's also bug fixes, and the major updates, like Update 12, 13, and 14, there's a very long list of fixes, and most of time there's just as many fixes as there are additions. My point is that even tho DE_Rebecca has stated a small list of changes/additions to the game, does not mean they're not not working on those bug fixes.

 

In the long run, if they keep adding so much new content so quickly, the number of bugs will just cumulate endlessly and there will be more bugs day by day. For example, there are bunch of known bugs with the arsenal and now DE is already releasing completely new UI, which will most likely have the same old bugs and dozens of new ones as well. Most of the previously fixed bugs also tend to come back sooner or later.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Taikaponi

[K_Shiro]

Kubrow Team does not represent the full development effort, it's just one of the first 'new' things in a bit so it does have a lot of us excited, but we understand it's not for everyone.

 

Simultaneous development is occurring on (but not limited to by any means, just examples):

 

- Complete navigation/UI overhaul (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/253837-lets-meet-pablo-and-dorian/).

- New 'New Player Experience' to address longstanding issues with our NPE.

- Quest System fundamentals - the understanding here is that this will allow for systemic quests with more meaningful gameplay (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/249863-thank-you-for-watching-devstream-31/).

- New Mission Types polishing and testing (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/249909-hive-sabotage-design-and-overview/).

- Dark Sector conflict Revamp/Improvements.

- Reworking Valkyr's Hysteria

 

And plenty more! There is definitely a lot to be worked on, and a lot of compelling feedback on things like Mods 2.0, Ammo 2.0 and more! We definitely still have our work cut out for us.

 

Though it is more than understandable that you need to dish out new content to keep the game going but I must admit I partially agree with the OP title - if nothing else, we have already seen what the results usually are when something truly elemental is neglected for too long.

 

- The weapon balance is a joke, numerous older (and even newer) weapons are weak and inefficient compared to a select few. Balancing them isn't a particularly hard or time consuming job, it is the duty of beta testers to cry when something is obviously out of balance, we did but what pains people is that weapons are still not touched. I accept that you might have a deeper plan for weaponry but while you are forging ammo 2.0 or whatnot together, you are losing players and make the loyal core bored/annoyed/sad etc. Setting up stats to balance weapons isn't all that hard (we have seen in, we have done it for other games - gamers tend to be incredibly efficient in choosing the most effective stuff thus are the best to set up stats). That way you could plain choose the best idea, set the stats to that and there it is - that should allow you plenty time to focus on further plans.

- Abilities lost their value, many are still strong (though many many many frames could use rework - Frost that is all but freezing, Nekros that is a plain graverobber, just to name a few) but in the end it's too easy to spam them. The gameplay thanks to that went even further towards the horde-mass-murdering style which can be fun... in a zombie game. It's alright against the infested, but when "trained" soldiers rush at you blindly like idiots, you just press a button and everyone dies... that's not really the epitome of fun or challenge. But certainly makes distruptor enemies even more annoying (seriously, why take energy? just disable casting for a fairly long duration).

[nitroz76]

Though it is more than understandable that you need to dish out new content to keep the game going but I must admit I partially agree with the OP title - if nothing else, we have already seen what the results usually are when something truly elemental is neglected for too long.

 

- The weapon balance is a joke, numerous older (and even newer) weapons are weak and inefficient compared to a select few. Balancing them isn't a particularly hard or time consuming job, it is the duty of beta testers to cry when something is obviously out of balance, we did but what pains people is that weapons are still not touched. I accept that you might have a deeper plan for weaponry but while you are forging ammo 2.0 or whatnot together, you are losing players and make the loyal core bored/annoyed/sad etc. Setting up stats to balance weapons isn't all that hard (we have seen in, we have done it for other games - gamers tend to be incredibly efficient in choosing the most effective stuff thus are the best to set up stats). That way you could plain choose the best idea, set the stats to that and there it is - that should allow you plenty time to focus on further plans.

- Abilities lost their value, many are still strong (though many many many frames could use rework - Frost that is all but freezing, Nekros that is a plain graverobber, just to name a few) but in the end it's too easy to spam them. The gameplay thanks to that went even further towards the horde-mass-murdering style which can be fun... in a zombie game. It's alright against the infested, but when "trained" soldiers rush at you blindly like idiots, you just press a button and everyone dies... that's not really the epitome of fun or challenge. But certainly makes distruptor enemies even more annoying (seriously, why take energy? just disable casting for a fairly long duration).

 

 

Oh no. Not another nerf train. 

[Weird_Stealth]

In the long run, if they keep adding so much new content so quickly, the number of bugs will just cumulate endlessly and there will be more bugs day by day. For example, there are bunch of known bugs with the arsenal and now DE is already releasing completely new UI, which will most likely have the same old bugs and dozens of new ones as well. Most of the previously fixed bugs also tend to come back sooner or later.

Yes, adding new content quickly can cause more bugs, but as I've stated, they add fixes as well as new content. 

 

As for the "there are bunch of known bugs with the arsenal and now DE is already releasing completely new UI, which will most likely have the same old bugs", How do you know by releasing a completely new UI they're fixing many of the UI based bugs. Sometimes in order to fix something, is to start over, or start from a different point in time.  So by DE releasing a completely new UI they are fixing a lot of bugs and problems with the current UI.

 

As for new bugs, welcome to programming, you fix one bug, and 3 more pop up, you fix 5, 1 reveals it's self.  There will always be bugs, and the game will never be 100% perfect, this is fact, and if DE focuses ONLY on fixing bugs, and nothing else, how long do you want them to focus on this crusade? How many patches? How many updates? How many weeks? Months? Years? Are you expecting them to fix every single bug?  You do realize that even if they spend years fixing bugs and only bugs, they'll lose a large part of their player base of boredum, and lack of change and progress other than bug fixes. Thus there lies the problem, the player base, you can't please everyone, yes you and others want bug fixes, but there's those of the same player base and community that wants new content, new changes.  We're a double edged sword, we want bugs fixed, we want issues solved, but we also want new content and changes. 

 

We need to trust that DE is working on fixing those issues, and that any future new content won't cause as many bugs. That's all we can do.

[derclaw]

Aftre more then a year in development what we have now:

- Many animation derps still exist:

1) Sprint+Jump+Shooting = awkward derp animation instead of MaxPayne if you just Jump+Shoot - ANOYING AS HELL! Reported multiple times over and over. NOT FIXED! But hey we are making Valkyr to go all Sonic!

2) Frames slide on floor when turning around while camera is locked to your aim. This is lazy-lazy stuff. Even Smite has bloody animation for "turning".

3)When making actual "powerslide" - frames dont follow the geometry of what they sliding on - so if yu slide downhill - frame is still animated like you slide on perfectly flat surface.

4)Furis reload animations (FURIS RELOAD ANIMATION!) - the clip in front of the guns falls-off, but then Frame inserts new clip in the handle.....and new clip in front appears.

etc etc.

 

Melee 2.0:

Do you want to hear solution for your problems here?

Get a person, give him Saryn with only maxed to the roof  melee weapon and send him into T4 survival. Ask his opinion if melee weapons are ANYTHING CLOSE TO BE REWARDING.

 

Channeling problems:

- Remove flat cost per strike - as everything with Melee 2/0 - may be sounded good on paper - in actual combat is useless. One woull think think that when enemies cluster you would flourish with your melee weapon. Nope - one swing into corwd and bye-bye whole energy pool. Channeling is not THAT usefull for the ammount of energy it costs. Add steady drain like with Toggle skills instead, anjust drain based on feedback = problem solved. 

 

- Return serrated edge - Give melee weapons their initial benefit back. I dont care that you have your fancy DMG 2.0 - it just doesnt work with Melee weapons. Before Dmg 2.0 melee was valid for one simle reason of completely ignoring any kind of resistance. Solution once again may come from altering how channeling works. Frame is pumping his suit power into wepaons - power that can be used for such small feats like nuking whole rooms or generating enough electricity to power up small town - make Channeling a melee tank-buster. When channeled - weapon ignores all armor and cuts through shileds. Boom = melee still usefull vs Bombards and such even after lvl 30.

 

- Combos major overhaul. Except for selected few, combos you made dont work in this type of game. You completely and uterly lack understanding of what kind of game you making, if you want to tell us that combos you made are usefull combat tools. They are not, they are flashy kata-style moves that showcase high and lows of your animation team.

Issues:

- Backpedaling input - HAHAHAHAHA!.... ha.... really, moving backwards while pressing melee button which is E by default? Not only its awkward to do, that NOT HOW YOUR GAME WORKS. When you melee stuff you run FORWARD all the time. We dont have lock-on feture like DMC or arenas-style fights when we need to fence against opponent. We mow down hords and hords of cannon fooder. Nobosy will ever use thos moves in actual combat in your game.

- Long combo chanins like e+e+e+e+HOLD E+e+e...... just try to do it in atcual high lvl fight.

[dragonboss]

seperate departments . and power creep is natural to all games.sigh.

Yeah, Ninja Gaiden has power creep. Right.

[dragonboss]

Yes, adding new content quickly can cause more bugs, but as I've stated, they add fixes as well as new content. 

 

As for the "there are bunch of known bugs with the arsenal and now DE is already releasing completely new UI, which will most likely have the same old bugs", How do you know by releasing a completely new UI they're fixing many of the UI based bugs. Sometimes in order to fix something, is to start over, or start from a different point in time.  So by DE releasing a completely new UI they are fixing a lot of bugs and problems with the current UI.

 

As for new bugs, welcome to programming, you fix one bug, and 3 more pop up, you fix 5, 1 reveals it's self.  There will always be bugs, and the game will never be 100% perfect, this is fact, and if DE focuses ONLY on fixing bugs, and nothing else, how long do you want them to focus on this crusade? How many patches? How many updates? How many weeks? Months? Years? Are you expecting them to fix every single bug?  You do realize that even if they spend years fixing bugs and only bugs, they'll lose a large part of their player base of boredum, and lack of change and progress other than bug fixes. Thus there lies the problem, the player base, you can't please everyone, yes you and others want bug fixes, but there's those of the same player base and community that wants new content, new changes.  We're a double edged sword, we want bugs fixed, we want issues solved, but we also want new content and changes. 

 

We need to trust that DE is working on fixing those issues, and that any future new content won't cause as many bugs. That's all we can do.

 

It's not that we're saying bugs are not being fixed, we're saying the focus seems to be on content more than polish.

 

DE Scott said something about the more useless mods that really supported my suspicions that warframe won't get any better, in terms of gameplay. It will for sure get shiny new toys and cosmetics, maybe even better graphics.

 

He basically said that handspring is going to stay a mod and not be made default or as a result of you tapping jump or roll when hit. This is like saying the mod system is perfect.

 

I and many others like me want to be able to be good in the game because of our personal skill, not because we bought or farmed a max mod that makes us able to one-shot everything.

 

The one-shotting gives people the illusion of skill, like when I accidentally went in pvp and go hit once and died twice then commented in the team chat that I thought pvp sucked. The other team responded by saying it didn't suck, but I did. My response was to one hit both of them with gram then quit, since I couldn't find how to quit the match in the first place.

 

I really wonder sometimes what kind of people are playing this game, and whether the are seeing the glaring flaws that haven't been looked at in months.

 

Nobody would care much if the core gameplay was solid, like for example games like Tekken or Resogun, where there is little content updates, but the gameplay is top notch, infinitely replayable, and most importantly challenging. Infinite enemy levels and damage is not challenge.

 

They would have less demand for content if they had done this in the first place instead of making the game about grinding for the next shiny toy to play with that gets boring after a short while.

[Dreed]

All "end-game" content is'n't even close to real end-game... Dark Sektors should be revamp, not only mission what currently are totaly bored without benefits for single clan members...

 

- Taking nods on single planet should give more to clans and alliances:

-- taxes not only in mission on DS node but on normal missions too, if clan/alliance have 2 nods on same planet they take control on it.

-- reward from taxes should can be used with players, currently all go into clan vault and noone can use it.. and this is big mistake, credits and mats should be able used by single clan member to buy new stuff, crafting.

 

-- making tons of mission in single nod isn't a good option, making any pvp without any pvp balance isn't a good option, currently i have no good idea what this mission may look ..

 

Currently DEVs should think more about they own Servers and start thinking about hosting some kind of mission.

 

At the beggining of this year we heares and watched that this year will be focused on end-game... and .. for me nothing.

 

Melee 2.0 what is interesting but nothing changen, still melee weapons and wole combos go in same direction, player can't aim his sword and cut of someone legs, how many times players have problems to kill players what are lower than the Warframe, running on stairs and try to kill someone is insane, cravles too many times can't be killed. Melee 2.0 didnt change primary think... ppl still shooting and using powers than fight melee.. even if combo make our dmg bigger than still need time to build it and in 4sec without fight we loose it.. so what is a point of this?

Edited July 1, 2014 by Dreed

[ritchelbaso]

i agree on the topic starter

 

but i think this is just how the devs do their work

 

at the moment i quit

 

from the game since its too repetitive, mob bullet impact physics isnt entertaining and ai is not good,

not to mention the lack of

 

enemy types and more better mini bosses,

the enemy leaders are just a copy with better hp =_= (wish theres bigger original enemy leaders and mellee enemies and more surprise on missions) 

 

and i dont do coop nowadays, since i can handle mission on my own, if i do coop an exterminate mission will be like just run to the end =_= boring 

 

also, hunting stuff like primes seem to have a bug, i have been getting same items all the time

anyways. ill be back when this game gets better

 

 

[CedarDpg]

Wait...where does it talk about space doggies? Is this the Tenno's version of the Zanuka project or something? :)

[Taikaponi]

We need to trust that DE is working on fixing those issues, and that any future new content won't cause as many bugs. That's all we can do.

 

I lost my trust in them ages ago.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Taikaponi

[__Kanade__]

Kubrow Team does not represent the full development effort, it's just one of the first 'new' things in a bit so it does have a lot of us excited, but we understand it's not for everyone.

 

Simultaneous development is occurring on (but not limited to by any means, just examples):

 

- Complete navigation/UI overhaul (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/253837-lets-meet-pablo-and-dorian/).

- New 'New Player Experience' to address longstanding issues with our NPE.

- Quest System fundamentals - the understanding here is that this will allow for systemic quests with more meaningful gameplay (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/249863-thank-you-for-watching-devstream-31/).

- New Mission Types polishing and testing (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/249909-hive-sabotage-design-and-overview/).

- Dark Sector conflict Revamp/Improvements.

- Reworking Valkyr's Hysteria

 

And plenty more! There is definitely a lot to be worked on, and a lot of compelling feedback on things like Mods 2.0, Ammo 2.0 and more! We definitely still have our work cut out for us.

There we go, now that's a better list after crossing off one thing that never needed to be in here in the first place.

[AdunSaveMe]

There we go, now that's a better list after crossing off one thing that never needed to be in here in the first place.

Heh, it's almost like you're implying Dark Sector conflicts aren't just glorified mobile defense. That'd be silly ;p

 

As it is, I see a lot of people demanding content and bug fixes faster than it's possible for it to be churned out, I see people saying "this should be changed, and it isn't being worked on" even though it's been stated that it is, and there's a lot of "I want this, I want it now". Shouting about how relatively recent additions aren't good enough, despite there not being that much time to fully assess them and improve them (because remember, they have to find a way that works, is balanced AND makes people happy), despite the obvious and glaring fact that everything is subject to change, and the bit where just because it isn't changed yet or hasn't been discussed at length does not mean it isn't going to change.

 

This game is an obvious work in progress, and while the community's input could help shape quite a lot, conjecture and jumping to conclusions helps nobody. There's still a long way to go. Realize this. And if you don't like the way the game is now, don't order people to change it, that doesn't help. List your thoughts, your suggestions, and maybe take a break for a while. Keep an eye on the game and come back when you think you'd be more interested in it.

 

If we had as many people cooperatively brainstorming improvements to existing features as we have people complaining about them, we could come up with some seriously great stuff.

Edited July 1, 2014 by AdunSaveMe

[Pirate_Shark]

Shouldn't there be more priority on making what's already here fun and engaging, as opposed to the press-button-to-win style we have now, where all the difficulty comes from planning?

We are here to test their game until its ready. Don't forget this is a beta. They will fix all that stuff last or as they go since they follow a priority list. Game breaking bugs are fixed first. Little issues are fixed last. They are still making the game here. We are not here to "play it for fun". The game is fun to play but the point of an opened beta is to test the game for them. The data they get from us just playing the game is priceless. We are only helping them test and make their game. You are complaining about a incomplete product.