Platinum Trade And Why It's Bad.

[taiiat]

-snip-

potential Revenue was lost because only one purchase was made.

 

even more loss if that Platinum was from a discounted source, be it a package or discount token.

 

 

even more loss if the Platinum is retraded for 6 months to hundreds of players that use it solely as a value source, and just cycle it around between people.

cycle enough purchases around, and the Platinum saturates. if there's plenty of existing Platinum going around in circles, don't really need to buy more of it for Trading.

[vaugahn]

even more loss if the Platinum is retraded for 6 months to hundreds of players that use it solely as a value source, and just cycle it around between people.

cycle enough purchases around, and the Platinum saturates. if there's plenty of existing Platinum going around in circles, don't really need to buy more of it for Trading.

 

I think a lot of people who trade platinum use it to buy cosmetics and other market stuff. But even then, once the platinum has been bought the revenue has been made, no matter what happens next. Right?

[taiiat]

But even then, once the platinum has been bought the revenue has been made, no matter what happens next. Right?

if it can be recirculated endlessly, which it can, that means Trading with Platinum (the thing everyone wants) is easy to do, and free. 

 

this is a Gold Farmer's wet dream.

[vaugahn]

if it can be recirculated endlessly, which it can, that means Trading with Platinum (the thing everyone wants) is easy to do, and free. 

 

this is a Gold Farmer's wet dream.

 

But the original purchase is where the money comes from, do they really care whether people circulate it or spend it? Either way, they've made 10 bucks.

[AdunSaveMe]

potential Revenue was lost because only one purchase was made.

One purchase was made but one amount was received.

If one purchase was made and two amounts were received, THAT would make sense.

 

Like if you buy a stick off someone, then give that stick to someone else, the person who sold you the stick didn't lose anything, as far as i can figure.

They gave away a stick, and got the worth of the stick in return. They didn't give two sticks and get paid for one. They didn't get paid for one stick and give one stick only for that stick to be cloned and given to someone else.

 

And the stick doesn't float around forever. It eventually gets used, by someone, somewhere down the line, and it's gone.

Edited July 1, 2014 by AdunSaveMe

[CelticMoss]

It's like saying TF2 hats shouldn't sold on steam market

[taiiat]

-snip-

but it has value, and therefore can be circulated for other things of value, or just accumulated without paying for it.

 

here's something i found in 5 seconds on Google:

 

wet. dream.

think about the investment that many of these could be. the investment could be $0.

 

It's like saying TF2 hats shouldn't sold on steam market

ah! but those are fine. the system is designed for that specifically. it exists for that exact reason, rather than it being a byproduct of a game. there's also a Tax, which means there's a cut taken on every circulation.

[vaugahn]

ah! but those are fine. the system is designed for that specifically. it exists for that exact reason, rather than it being a byproduct of a game. there's also a Tax, which means there's a cut taken on every circulation.

 

But the total cash value of platinum is paid up front. Whether it vanishes into the market or circulates endlessly has no impact on the money made.

[taiiat]

But the total cash value of platinum is paid up front. Whether it vanishes into the market or circulates endlessly has no impact on the money made.

not from the one sale, no. but future sales.

[AdunSaveMe]

not from the one sale, no. but future sales.

NOW we're getting somewhere I can stand.

 

But, a lot of the plat that was paid for goes to and is used by people who would otherwise not have paid for plat anyway.

 

Consider.

Edited July 1, 2014 by AdunSaveMe

[taiiat]

But, a lot of the plat that was paid for goes to and is used by people who would otherwise not have paid for plat anyway.

you don't say.

 

but it has value, and therefore can be circulated for other things of value, or just accumulated without paying for it.

 

here's something i found in 5 seconds on Google:

 

wet. dream.

think about the investment that many of these could be. the investment could be $0.

[vaugahn]

Platinum isn't real though. When you spend it in the market it just vanishes, it's not like there's a limited amount of it or anything...

[Idiocy]

You know why I only want plat?

 

It's because of 95% of them wanting to trade their low demand, high drop rate garbage for my high demand, low drop rate stuff.

 

I'm not going to trade you a Loki Prime Helmet for your Bo Prime Ornament.

I'm not going to trade you a Gleaming Dervish for a Coiled Viper.

 

And guess what? I need plat to get cosmetics and other stuff I may want. I need plat to rush my forma crafts.

 

I don't need your god damn crappy Prime pieces that everyone has a ton of.

[Phatose]

i'm going to use this just once. and then wash my hands because i'll feel like a slimelord.

 

>Platinum for free would devalue it

>can Trade Platinum which is getting it for free

>both Trading for Platinum and getting it in controlled situations is less revenue for Digital Extremes

>logic

 

 

that's a horrible excuse.

 

>both Trading for Platinum and getting it in controlled situations is less revenue for Digital Extremes

 

 

That's not actually true.

 

The missed step here is that when platinum is gained 'for free' via trading, there is a decreased need for platinum purchases by the recipient.

However, there is an offsetting increasing in need for further platinum by the person who has traded that platinum away. 

 

Trading is, on the surface, completely neutral to profits for DE - Person A, who received it is less likely to buy more, while person B, who traded it away, is more likely to buy more. 

 

Simple giveaways do not have the offset demand.

 

 

There are of course other factors involved that no doubt make trading a net positive for DE, but that's neither here nor there as the base principle is wrong.

[Sev7n]

I could have read the images wrong but from the 2 you posted OP it looks like you tried to trade in council chat and kickbot told you not to.

Cause trading platinum has no negative effects on the game

Any situation you have been in that seems ridiculous or unfair during trades or the trade channel i can guarentee is caused by the player / community not because of plat

[AdunSaveMe]

>both Trading for Platinum and getting it in controlled situations is less revenue for Digital Extremes

 

 

That's not actually true.

 

The missed step here is that when platinum is gained 'for free' via trading, there is a decreased need for platinum purchases by the recipient.

However, there is an offsetting increasing in need for further platinum by the person who has traded that platinum away. 

 

Trading is, on the surface, completely neutral to profits for DE - Person A, who received it is less likely to buy more, while person B, who traded it away, is more likely to buy more. 

 

Simple giveaways do not have the offset demand.

 

 

There are of course other factors involved that no doubt make trading a net positive for DE, but that's neither here nor there as the base principle is wrong.

Slightly more confused again

Currency is silly, why can't we just club each other over the head and steal the other person's shiny rocks like in the good old days

 

 

Any situation you have been in that seems ridiculous or unfair during trades or the trade channel i can guarentee is caused by the player / community not because of plat

Pretty much this. the problem lies less with being able to trade plat and more the fact that people ask it all the time.

[Doughalo2]

ARE YOU KIDDING I GRIND MY &#! OFF FOR CORES IN A MAX SERRATION !!!!!!!! TAKES MONTHS SO I SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET PLAT FROM IT!!!!!!

[Loswaith]

One purchase was made but one amount was received.

If one purchase was made and two amounts were received, THAT would make sense.

 

Like if you buy a stick off someone, then give that stick to someone else, the person who sold you the stick didn't lose anything, as far as i can figure.

They gave away a stick, and got the worth of the stick in return. They didn't give two sticks and get paid for one. They didn't get paid for one stick and give one stick only for that stick to be cloned and given to someone else.

 

And the stick doesn't float around forever. It eventually gets used, by someone, somewhere down the line, and it's gone.

The issue is more one guy is selling sticks, 3 people want sticks.  First guy buys a stick, uses it and once done sells it to the second guy (with money he had from selling his rock).  Second guy is finished with the stick and sells it to the third (with money made by selling his sand).

The guy selling the sticks initially (the market), has only sold one stick.  If the others couldn't have bought the stick from somone else they would have bought it from the stick seller.

Sure whoever bought the rock and sand say got their money from the money guy (DE in this case), neither the first or second guy are out of pocket for any money. 

The big factor is: Now if guy one or two want a different stick from the stick seller they can use the same money again instead of needing to buy more money.  The money seller has now lost out on sales.

 

 

NOW we're getting somewhere I can stand.

 

But, a lot of the plat that was paid for goes to and is used by people who would otherwise not have paid for plat anyway.

 

Consider.

True, but a good chunk is used by people that would otherwise buy platinum as well, and thus arent buying it becuse other avenues let them gain it in infinite amounts. 

If platinum could only be traded between players once (only able to be used in the marketplace) then your surmation would be correct.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Loswaith

[vaugahn]

All the plat on the market came from DE. Every single one has been paid for, no matter what people are doing with it.

[AdunSaveMe]

The issue is more one guy is selling sticks, 3 people want sticks.  First guy buys a stick, uses it and once done sells it to the second guy (with money he had from selling his rock).  Second guy is finished with the stick and sells it to the third (with money made by selling his sand).

The guy selling the sticks initially (DE), has only sold one stick.  If the others couldn't have bought the stick from somone else they would have bought it from the stick seller.

I don't think this works because you have them actually getting a use out of the stick.

 

When you give plat to someone, you don't get a use out of it, you don't buy anything with it, you just trade it for something.

You trade it for something that could not be purchased otherwise.

 

One person buys the plat, eventually one person spends it.

[Phatose]

Slightly more confused again

Currency is silly, why can't we just club each other over the head and steal the other person's shiny rocks like in the good old days

 

 

Pretty much this. the problem lies less with being able to trade plat and more the fact that people ask it all the time.

 

I can tell you why DE wants it this way.  It makes them more money.

 

There are a significant amount of players who simply are never going to spend any money whatsoever on Warframe.  There are a couple of reasons for this - I'd wager the most common is that they simply don't have any disposable income.  DE will never be able to monetize them, as they just don't have any money.

 

Trading however gives DE a somewhat indirect method to turn those players into extra income.  They sell farmed items to players who do spend money, and use it in the in-game marketplace.  The end result is that a player who bought platinum now has less - and will need to buy more plat sooner - while the player who would never spend money has taken the platinum out of the economy, and effectively 'spent' the paying player's money.

 

Now there's also the possibility that a player who would have otherwise bought additional platinum will instead farm and trade.  This isn't a net gain for DE - but it's also not a net loss, as every bit of platinum they spend was bought somewhere.  The guy who would've otherwise bought it didn't, but somewhere out there there are now people who have less platinum, and thus more need to buy more.  It's basically a draw, but not a loss. 

 

It's not win/win, but win/draw is still a winning record.

[AdunSaveMe]

I can tell you why DE wants it this way.  It makes them more money.

 

There are a significant amount of players who simply are never going to spend any money whatsoever on Warframe.  There are a couple of reasons for this - I'd wager the most common is that they simply don't have any disposable income.  DE will never be able to monetize them, as they just don't have any money.

 

Trading however gives DE a somewhat indirect method to turn those players into extra income.  They sell farmed items to players who do spend money, and use it in the in-game marketplace.  The end result is that a player who bought platinum now has less - and will need to buy more plat sooner - while the player who would never spend money has taken the platinum out of the economy, and effectively 'spent' the paying player's money.

 

Now there's also the possibility that a player who would have otherwise bought additional platinum will instead farm and trade.  This isn't a net gain for DE - but it's also not a net loss, as every bit of platinum they spend was bought somewhere.  The guy who would've otherwise bought it didn't, but somewhere out there there are now people who have less platinum, and thus more need to buy more.  It's basically a draw, but not a loss. 

 

It's not win/win, but win/draw is still a winning record.

Also, it keeps people happy.

 

Cos it'd be rubbish if you could only get cosmetic stuff by paying for it. That means people miss out.

 

I like to think DE actually care about players and not just about getting money. They certainly seem like it.

Not every dev is in it for money, y'know?

 

Good response though. Well written, sah.

Edited July 1, 2014 by AdunSaveMe

[Loswaith]

I don't think this works because you have them actually getting a use out of the stick.

 

When you give plat to someone, you don't get a use out of it, you don't buy anything with it, you just trade it for something.

You trade it for something that could not be purchased otherwise.

 

One person buys the plat, eventually one person spends it.

It does work that way, it's a loss of potential sales.   If you have sold 1 million platinum and it never needs to be replenished, you never make more money selling it.

 

If you have something that cost you plat and are not using it, it makes no difference to DE.  However if you then sell it to someone that would use it, DE looses that potential sale (there is a chance that person would buy plat).  The money you got for that thing you no longer use means you will buy less platinum to buy something you will use.

 

Whether you could purchase it is actually irrelevant.  The relevancy is whether you can gain it, be that by playing/farming or buying.

 

There are basically a few groups in the equasion (people often move from group to group)

1. Those that dont buy, trade or spend plat -- this group has little impact on the plat market (the true "free to play" group you could say)

2. Those that dont buy plat (for whatever reasons), but would spend it (gaining it through trading) -- This group has the bigest impact on trading of plat

3. Those that will buy, trade and spend plat -- this is where most people paying are likely to be

4. Those that would buy plat, but trade for it instead -- this is the group that DE looses sales on that without trading would make money from

5. Those that buy and spend plat but dont trade for it -- this could be one batch of plat or many, none of this plat goes to potential sale losses (it also covers starting and prize platinum, becuse you can only spend it on the market)

 

The biggest loss to DE is group 3 and 4 in potential sales of plat, as they will buy more plat that they otherwise are now trading for.  That said some of group 3 will be spent by groups 2 and 3 (especially if group 3 have idle platinum), while some of group 2 after spending some traded plat may actually move to be part of group 3 or 4 (DE's hope with this model).

 

At the end of the day it is up to DE to weigh up between potential lost sales and other 'good will' gains for having it.

 

The most profitable avenue for DE is to actually let platinum only be traded once (it is a bit heavy handed in my opinion though).

Edited July 1, 2014 by Loswaith

[SirProper]

We don't need regulations or any more limitations on trade.

 

Want to make trade chat a more useful place?  Simple.  Make it cost 5,000 credits every time you say anything there.

This is a really bad idea for one reason alone, most of the people that are able to foot that bill are already the same people spamming for plat. I personally do not want plat trading out of the game. I think there is value to it. 

 

You can not put a gate on a trade system or it creates a 'have' versus 'have not split'. Free trade is important and imperative. We must consider how we can get visibility for everyone who wants it, in order to have a truly free market.

As it stands now, only those that have the time and the resources are able to maintain visibility this creates an inherent cornering of the market, and a biased control of prices.  

 

What we need to do is at the very minimum have two trade chats. One for materiel trades and the other for plat.

 

Another solution which I like better, is a trade forum of sorts in game. something where you can post stuff and people respond. It dramatically increases visibility and people don't have to spam crap forever. 

 

The last idea, which I have no idea how they would implement it but I think is the best, would be a market place. I place where people can post whatever they want for whatever price. I am thinking about how we can select stuff out of our inventories for trades now, and it would be cool  to just post what you have, and then select the thing you are looking for and people can then complete the transaction and you would get it in your mail. A simple solution with the largest need for a programming infrastructure...

 

although now that I think about it, there may be some code already available to support it.  Since they have switched how event rewards work, you simply achieve the requirement and it spits out the reward. A market system would not be that far off as far as code is concerned. We the sellers are essentially creating a gate objective, and when someone completes it they would receive their reward.

 

controlling the market isn't the best, but providing transparency will end up regulating it on its own, as people will start to be able to make informed decisions. 

[Yezzik]

An auction house of some kind would fix a problem I keep seeing: players unable to trade because they can't join my dojo because one of us has port forwarding issues.