Iron Skin - % Dr

[elleto]

the current iron skin makes low lvl content a joke since nothing can cut into it, and doesn't scale well into high lvl content with mobs removing it almost instantly.

 

I suggest something along the lines of % damage reduction. Say rank 0 giving 15% damage reduction and max rank giving

60% damage reduction on a timer of say 1min to 2min ?

 

this would balance out as its a percentage damage reduction and it would be more viable in high lvl areas.

 

discuss.

 

[Vyrn.]

It serves its purpose, and we don't need another Overheat fiasco.

[Thaumatos]

It serves its purpose, and we don't need another Overheat fiasco.

Overheat was on a non-tank frame.

 

Rhino is a tank frame.

 

Huge difference.

[taiiat]

Huge difference.

still would be making the Power either mediocre overall, or the Power would be a button press for nigh invulnerability.

 

neither is very good.

[VKhaun]

Leave it at 100% damage reduction, but make it a toggle that drains power quickly. No more fire-and-forget buffing, make people choose when to use it and not use it. Make them plan and put it up before charging or react and put it up when caught in the open. Same gameplay at all levels since it's time based rather than HP based. Tank being supported by anyone who generates power like Nekros or Trinity. Multiple build options and mod interactions and loadout considerations to get/keep/generate power.

 

My 2¢

[(PSN)jenax002]

Overheat was on a non-tank frame.

 

Rhino is a tank frame.

 

Huge difference.

 

If Rhino is a tank frame, he shouldn't be given a speed buff then. you cannot expect this tank frame to be a beast at running, CC (stomp), utility (roar) and be invincible the whole time because that will just make other warframes obsolete (already more than half of the new player base use him anyways).

 

I am fine with a Damage bar showing you how much damage you have taken on iron skin. I do not know about your Iron Skin but my iron skin (with Focus and BlindRage maxed) provides me enough iron skin for 80 mintues of T3 survival (and that falls way beyond DE's expectations for suggested enemy levels that we are supposed to fight).

 

I have so many friends who just rank up warfames and sell them while rhino just sits there without being touched. i just want warframe to remain as warframe not RhinoFrame. I would actually go ahead and say that he is actually well balanced right now except Rhino Charge ability (he doesn't need it, he already is faster along with his vanguard helmet and can run almost as fast as loki).

 

In conclusion, i agree with Vkaun's suggestion (may be a toggable ability with high energy cost) OR leave iron skin as it is (with a damage bar) but make rhino less mobile WHILE IRON SKIN IS ON (that actually makes sense. doesn't it? if you have a skin made of iron, no body expects you to run fast). And that would prevent people from putting on iron skin as soon as they spawn in the game. The ability was supposed to help you not take any damage when in need (reviving someone) but not to put it on as soon as you spawn in the game. Considering he is tank, he should be less mobile from get go, not race with the squishiest frame and still be at par with him.

Edited July 5, 2014 by (PS4)jenax002

[(PSN)Bobtm0]

the current iron skin makes low lvl content a joke since nothing can cut into it, and doesn't scale well into high lvl content with mobs removing it almost instantly.

 

I suggest something along the lines of % damage reduction. Say rank 0 giving 15% damage reduction and max rank giving

60% damage reduction on a timer of say 1min to 2min ?

 

this would balance out as its a percentage damage reduction and it would be more viable in high lvl areas.

 

discuss.

 

Outside of the fact that I think it's not a good direction to go in in the first place, a base duration of 1-2 minutes on a 2?  .... and you've got the gall to say that's "balancing it out".  Even though it would no longer eat all the damage with your change, it'd still be a ridiculously long CC immunity.

 

If it had a base duration of maybe 9-10 seconds you'd maybe have something.  Though on that note I'd almost say it'd be too weak at only a 60% reduction.

 

I'm not really sure of what sort of a change would be a really solid one that could work well at every level.  If I had to pick a starting point though, I'd go with a toggle setup like what Vkaun described.

 

[elleto]

im not suggesting a speed buff.

 

having a lot of new players using rhino is quite understandable.

it is the next frame available , its strong due to iron skin being op at low lvls and new players without the necessary mods would place higher survivability as a need since they take too long to kill anything.

 

but that is a different problem altogether.

 

the issue im trying to put thru is that the ability is unbalanced between high lvl and low lvl play.

having it do percentage damage reduction would balance it more so that in low lvl areas they arnt just walking thru the missions with ironskin on like they own the place since they would take dmg. (makes it better for training new players too to learn to run and take cover)

[Vyrn.]

Overheat was on a non-tank frame.

 

Rhino is a tank frame.

 

Huge difference.

Not really. It made Ember pretty much invincible, which would not be something for any frame. Before you say "oh but Valkyr," remember that she's forced into melee during Hysteria, locked in that state, has to get up close and personal to even deal damage, and is not the most damaging frame during it. She's also pretty much designed to be one tough cookie.

Rhino isn't a tank frame. Valkyr and even Saryn are closer to that than he ever will be. He's more support if anything (Charge knocks enemies down and moves Rhino around faster, Roar is a direct buff to allied damage output, and Stomp is CC, with Iron Skin to add a little extra protection). Plus, having damage reduction with a percentage affected by power strength is a dangerous path. With Intensify/Blind Rage, it'd have to be a lowish starting percentage to prevent nearly complete (or complete) damage immunity. If it were that low, it might not even be worth it to players without other mods. It *could* just not be affected by power strength mods, but its base would have to be quite high and/or people would get all riled up about it.

Point is, no. We don't need invincible frames, especially not invincible support frames.

[elleto]

im sorry that numbers I pulled out of the air is upsetting you but nothing is set in stone.

 

ultimately the %damage reduction and duration is up to the devs to decide after they look thru their tools and spreadsheets.

 

btw Im not against having the ironskin slow movement speed when activated, a tradeoff is nice too, makes ppl think more. 

[(PSN)jenax002]

im sorry that numbers I pulled out of the air is upsetting you but nothing is set in stone.

 

ultimately the %damage reduction and duration is up to the devs to decide after they look thru their tools and spreadsheets.

 

btw Im not against having the ironskin slow movement speed when activated, a tradeoff is nice too, makes ppl think more. 

 

Not trying to be rude but I think Vkaun's suggestion is little better (it just needs to have a high energy cost/second unlike nyx's absorb or hydroid's undertow which costs less energy). Sorry i was talking about the speed thing earlier because i just find all these people put on iron skin as soon as they spawn in a mission as if they gonna get shot and die right away.

 

 

Leave it at 100% damage reduction, but make it a toggle that drains power quickly. No more fire-and-forget buffing, make people choose when to use it and not use it. Make them plan and put it up before charging or react and put it up when caught in the open. Same gameplay at all levels since it's time based rather than HP based. Tank being supported by anyone who generates power like Nekros or Trinity. Multiple build options and mod interactions and loadout considerations to get/keep/generate power.

 

My 2¢

[Thaumatos]

If Rhino is a tank frame, he shouldn't be given a speed buff then. you cannot expect this tank frame to be a beast at running, CC (stomp), utility (roar) and be invincible the whole time because that will just make other warframes obsolete (already more than half of the new player base use him anyways).

 

I am fine with a Damage bar showing you how much damage you have taken on iron skin. I do not know about your Iron Skin but my iron skin (with Focus and BlindRage maxed) provides me enough iron skin for 80 mintues of T3 survival (and that falls way beyond DE's expectations for suggested enemy levels that we are supposed to fight).

 

I have so many friends who just rank up warfames and sell them while rhino just sits there without being touched. i just want warframe to remain as warframe not RhinoFrame. I would actually go ahead and say that he is actually well balanced right now except Rhino Charge ability (he doesn't need it, he already is faster along with his vanguard helmet and can run almost as fast as loki).

 

In conclusion, i agree with Vkaun's suggestion (may be a toggable ability with high energy cost) OR leave iron skin as it is (with a damage bar) but make rhino less mobile WHILE IRON SKIN IS ON (that actually makes sense. doesn't it? if you have a skin made of iron, no body expects you to run fast). And that would prevent people from putting on iron skin as soon as they spawn in the game. The ability was supposed to help you not take any damage when in need (reviving someone) but not to put it on as soon as you spawn in the game. Considering he is tank, he should be less mobile from get go, not race with the squishiest frame and still be at par with him.

Rhino is a tank frame.  DE has stated that Ember was never meant to be a 'tank'.

 

You can pull any other imbalance points out you want to, and frankly they're valid to some extent.  But you can't get away from the simple fact that Rhino was designed to be tough and Ember was not.  That was the key issue with Overheat.

 

That being said, base stats definitely need to be looked at.  Its like these guys at DE are adding fluff while letting the core of the game sit 1/2 done.

 

DE_Steve got offended at the idea that mods are in dire need of revisiting...but it's true.  They can't keep adding mods.  They're killing this game with their oversimplified 'progression' system.

[elleto]

the issue with a toggle ability and having it give 100% DR is that it can be seriously abused. if the person mods for energy efficiency and spams team energy restore with a party that has energy siphon, its going to have a near 100% up time.

 

if u raise the cost to prevent that, then with the base energy available to rhino, energy will be sucked dry in a few sec.

Edited July 5, 2014 by elleto

[Azawarau]

Overheat was on a non-tank frame.

 

Rhino is a tank frame.

 

Huge difference.

Trinity is a non tank frame and she can tank better than Valkyr,the best tank in the game, with just link

 

So whats your point about overheat?

[Iraetus]

My Frost is sad

[Saiyanjin1]

So the damage reduction idea for Iron Skin has been done by DE back then they took his God mode and didn't quite know what to do with him. It was a nightmare for Rhino players, it didn't do enough and I believe it was at 80% at the time (or was it 90%?). But even that STILL wasn't enough, but then again back then we didn't have the Stomp we have now or Roar so that also plays a part.

 

Seeing as DE is introducing this new toggle feature in frames I say it's a good idea and Iron Skin should work that way also. Make it drain alittle more energy per second AND make Rhino 20-30% slower when it's on and MAYBE have about 75% aggro on it so Rhino can truly be a CC TANK (You know, a slow moving heavy armor destruction machine).

 

But of course everyone has their own ideas about it and will disagree or have something better in mind. 

Edited July 5, 2014 by Saiyanjin1

[elleto]

u mean the old iron skin had 80% dr and didn't work well ? was it too strong or too weak ?

[Azawarau]

So the damage reduction idea for Iron Skin has been done by DE back then they took his God mode and didn't quite know what to do with him. It was a nightmare for Rhino players, it didn't do enough and I believe it was at 80% at the time (or was it 90%?). But even that STILL wasn't enough, but then again back then we didn't have the Stomp we have now or Roar so that also plays a part.

 

Seeing as DE is introducing this new toggle feature in frames I say it's a good idea and Iron Skin should work that way also. Make it drain alittle more energy per second AND make Rhino 20-30% slower when it's on and MAYBE have about 75% aggro on it so Rhino can truly be a CC TANK (You know, a slow moving heavy armor destruction machine).

 

But of course everyone has their own ideas about it and will disagree or have something better in mind. 

Valkyr sits at 80 currently and does just fine

 

Trinity has 75 and does just fine as well

 

Both without CC or buffs

 

Considering the kind of idiots that drop by threads like this one i wouldnt be surprised if it was an issue of player skill and not rhino itself

Edited July 5, 2014 by Azawarau

[Saiyanjin1]

Valkyr sits at 80 currently and does just fine

 

Trinity has 75 and does just fine as well

 

Both without CC or buffs

 

Considering the kind of idiots that drop by threads like this one i wouldnt be surprised if it was an issue of player skill and not rhino itself

 

You are right indeed but it was not so good before damage and armor 2.0 so maybe in U13 (and upcoming U14) the 80% it used to have would be perfect and would work better than when they used it back in U8.

 

Keep mind back then all Rhino had for CC was Radial Stomp was didn't deal any good damage (no armor piercing or ignore = not good enough back then) and I can't remember the name but it used to keep enemies in stasis like how Stomp now does. So basically back then Stomp was split in two, and both sucked compared to Stomp now. Roar wasn't a thing.

 

Maybe 80% would be great for now but who knows.

 

I myself made a suggestion back when IS was 80% DR, I asked for Steel Fiber to compliment IS in a way which since it had 80% then SF would add to that all the way up to a cap of 95% or something.

 

But I'd rather it be a toggle effect now more than anything WITH a slow associated with it so people would use it smarter.

[elleto]

player skill aside, im trying to get a discussion about the mechanics of the skill in a feedback thread. I would appreciate it if Azawarau keep the discussion civil and not insult everyone who you think is not as good a player as you. thank you.

 

As a side note, the game cant be balanced around the vets who are very familiar with game mechanics and enemy AI.

Most of the vets have such well modded weapons that most mobs die in a fraction of a second.

their higher skill level that makes the game easy in their opinion.

 

What is going to happen to new players who don't have that skill level?

Edited July 5, 2014 by elleto

[Azawarau]

You are right indeed but it was not so good before damage and armor 2.0 so maybe in U13 (and upcoming U14) the 80% it used to have would be perfect and would work better than when they used it back in U8.

 

Keep mind back then all Rhino had for CC was Radial Stomp was didn't deal any good damage (no armor piercing or ignore = not good enough back then) and I can't remember the name but it used to keep enemies in stasis like how Stomp now does. So basically back then Stomp was split in two, and both sucked compared to Stomp now. Roar wasn't a thing.

 

Maybe 80% would be great for now but who knows.

 

I myself made a suggestion back when IS was 80% DR, I asked for Steel Fiber to compliment IS in a way which since it had 80% then SF would add to that all the way up to a cap of 95% or something.

 

But I'd rather it be a toggle effect now more than anything WITH a slow associated with it so people would use it smarter.

I could argue over the usefulness of the old rhino CC and how the 80% damage reduc was OP before but im not here for that

 

I will say that regardless of the past its obvious that adding overheat now with 80% damage reduction would b way too powerful and would effectively make Ember a better tank than Rhino,Valkyr, and Trinity

player skill aside, im trying to get a discussion about the mechanics of the skill in a feedback thread. I would appreciate it if Azawarau keep the discussion civil and not insult everyone who you think is not as good a player as you. thank you.

I havnt directly insulted anyone but if you want me to ill insult you just so you have a reason to increase your post count

[elleto]

thanks! ill ignore you from now.

[Saiyanjin1]

The biggest problem with that while Damage reduction thing is that it's only good to a certain point. Casuals and Beginners would have no problem getting from Mercury to Pluto with 80% reduction of even 50% reduction. Hel even in a T4 void 80% is great but how about when we talk about REAL end game?

 

Yes yes, elitist players blah blah blah, the game isn't centered for end game stuff blah blah blah. Point is, 99% reduction can't do anything when the enemies are high enough and one shots everything. Which is why they changed it.

[Gizogin]

I'm definitely in favor of a toggled Iron Skin with reduced movement speed.  It's nonsensical that Rhino, a big, bulky, heavily-armored frame, can move as fast as light-and-nimble Loki without even having to worry about enemies at all.  

 

Making Iron Skin a toggled ability with a drawback would completely change the way it's used, and that's a good thing.  Activating Iron Skin at the moment is not even a choice; there is literally no reason not to activate it as soon as the mission begins and re-cast it as soon as it wears off.  The only ability that is used in a remotely similar way is Invisibility, but that has a limited duration and constantly activating it will rapidly drain a Loki's energy.

 

It's funny, actually; I was running a defense mission just an hour ago with a Rhino and an Ember Prime, and the Ember Prime stated that she flat-out would not revive the Rhino if he did not keep his Iron Skin up.  That's how important it is and how much of a decision it isn't.

[Loswaith]

u mean the old iron skin had 80% dr and didn't work well ? was it too strong or too weak ?

Actually the old 80% even back then was more effective than the current Iron Skin (overall more effective health by a huge amount).  However it was buged as well (not haivng the CC immunity on it and only actually reducing about 50% of the damage if i recall correctly).  Due to people complaining about it it got changed to the current one instead of the bugs being fixed.

 

The biggest problem with that while Damage reduction thing is that it's only good to a certain point. Casuals and Beginners would have no problem getting from Mercury to Pluto with 80% reduction of even 50% reduction. Hel even in a T4 void 80% is great but how about when we talk about REAL end game?

 

Yes yes, elitist players blah blah blah, the game isn't centered for end game stuff blah blah blah. Point is, 99% reduction can't do anything when the enemies are high enough and one shots everything. Which is why they changed it.

Well thats hardly an issue only for Rhino with Ironskin (damage doesnt peak just for him) and more of an issue of the damage output at those levels, given most frames dont have any protection at all to that kind of damage in the slightest. Even without Iron Skin most other frames will get one shot long before Rhino does. 

The damage scalling post TIV is an issue but still less than 5% of the actual game, so sure while it should be considered it shouldnt be the focal point of the game's balance as a whole.  Just because you can do it doesnt mean it's the norm.

 

Even then with a DR of 80% your shields will actually take more damage than the IS absorption and shields will give you, as it makes them effectivly 5 times the amount (you just dont get the spike recovery for replaceing the absorption shield).