Iron Skin - % Dr

[Azawarau]

The biggest problem with that while Damage reduction thing is that it's only good to a certain point. Casuals and Beginners would have no problem getting from Mercury to Pluto with 80% reduction of even 50% reduction. Hel even in a T4 void 80% is great but how about when we talk about REAL end game?

 

Yes yes, elitist players blah blah blah, the game isn't centered for end game stuff blah blah blah. Point is, 99% reduction can't do anything when the enemies are high enough and one shots everything. Which is why they changed it.

The current iron skin is worse than DR

 

Thats why Valkyr and triity are better tanks than rhino

 

Their defenses scale with enemy damage a bit

 

I'm definitely in favor of a toggled Iron Skin with reduced movement speed.  It's nonsensical that Rhino, a big, bulky, heavily-armored frame, can move as fast as light-and-nimble Loki without even having to worry about enemies at all.  

 

Making Iron Skin a toggled ability with a drawback would completely change the way it's used, and that's a good thing.  Activating Iron Skin at the moment is not even a choice; there is literally no reason not to activate it as soon as the mission begins and re-cast it as soon as it wears off.  The only ability that is used in a remotely similar way is Invisibility, but that has a limited duration and constantly activating it will rapidly drain a Loki's energy.

 

It's funny, actually; I was running a defense mission just an hour ago with a Rhino and an Ember Prime, and the Ember Prime stated that she flat-out would not revive the Rhino if he did not keep his Iron Skin up.  That's how important it is and how much of a decision it isn't.

What would toggled iron skin do?

 

If its invincibility its already too strong and if its DR itll make him a better tank than valkyr easily

 

Itd also push him to OP frame tier

Actually the old 80% even back then was more effective than the current Iron Skin (overall more effective health by a huge amount).  However it was buged as well (not haivng the CC immunity on it and only actually reducing about 50% of the damage if i recall correctly).  Due to people complaining about it it got changed to the current one instead of the bugs being fixed.

 

Well thats hardly an issue only for Rhino with Ironskin (damage doesnt peak just for him) and more of an issue of the damage output at those levels, given most frames dont have any protection at all to that kind of damage in the slightest. Even without Iron Skin most other frames will get one shot long before Rhino does. 

The damage scalling post TIV is an issue but still less than 5% of the actual game, so sure while it should be considered it shouldnt be the focal point of the game's balance as a whole.  Just because you can do it doesnt mean it's the norm.

 

Even then with a DR of 80% your shields will actually take more damage than the IS absorption and shields will give you, as it makes them effectivly 5 times the amount (you just dont get the spike recovery for replaceing the absorption shield).

This^

 

DR>>>>>>>>>>fixed amount

 

But rhino getting dr.....

[Gizogin]

 

What would toggled iron skin do?

 

If its invincibility its already too strong and if its DR itll make him a better tank than valkyr easily

 

Itd also push him to OP frame tier

 

Not just toggled, but toggled with a reduction to movement speed and a constant energy drain while active.  It would change Iron Skin from fire-and-forget to emergency armor, making its activation an actual, conscious decision.

[Azawarau]

Not just toggled, but toggled with a reduction to movement speed and a constant energy drain while active.  It would change Iron Skin from fire-and-forget to emergency armor, making its activation an actual, conscious decision.

But is it DR or invincibility?

[Gizogin]

But is it DR or invincibility?

 

Honestly, I'm not sure which would be better.  I would probably say invincibility, given that it would already have the drawback of reduced speed.  It would also fit less along the lines of "emergency armor" if it only gave DR; if you're activating it at low health, then even high DR won't improve survivability much.

[Hexagoros]

*sigh* This again?

 

A couple of points,

 

1) Rhino is seen on new players first because it is a very, very easy to get Frame early in the game.  Second, because he is easy to use, much easier to use than the excalibur.  So *gasp* new players are using the easy/early to get frame that is also easy for new players to use.  Shock.  Horror.  Rhino Prime is seen on a lot of veteran players because it was the recent 'vague' frame.  Now Loki Prime is.

 

2) Iron Skin is a 'great' ability early in the game.  There is no doubt about that.  But take Iron Skin to higher level content, T3/4 and Pluto, especially on Defense and Survival and watch that shield get shredded.  Unless your packing Blind Rage, Focus, Streamline, and possibly a Fleeting Expertise depending on how far you take Blind Rage, that Iron Skin ability is next to useless against Heavy Gunners and high level infested swarms...and don't even get me started on corpus fire power.

 

That means you need to dedicate 3-4 mod slots to make Iron Skin viable in late game content, plus the Iron Skin ability slot itself, which raises the used mod slots to 4-5.  Don't tell me that power is too strong when it require 3-4 mod slots as crutch in order to be viable.

 

3) There were some mentions of Roar throughout the post.  Yeah...that's a new player mistake.  Aside from close-knit teams that coordinate, and new players, I have yet to see a Rhino player actually use that.  I myself don't have room for roar, and don't need the extra damage anyway.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Hexagoros

[Gizogin]

2) Iron Skin is a 'great' ability early in the game.  There is no doubt about that.  But take Iron Skin to higher level content, T3/4 and Pluto, especially on Defense and Survival and watch that shield get shredded.  Unless your packing Blind Rage, Focus, Streamline, and possibly a Fleeting Expertise depending on how far you take Blind Rage, that Iron Skin ability is next to useless against Heavy Gunners and high level infested swarms...and don't even get me started on corpus fire power.

 

That means you need to dedicate 3-4 mod slots to make Iron Skin viable in late game content, plus the Iron Skin ability slot itself, which raises the used mod slots to 4-5.  Don't tell me that power is too strong when it require 3-4 mod slots as crutch in order to be viable.

 

Endgame falloff is not a defense.  No ability that relies on numbers is viable in high-level content, even less so in endless or T4 missions.  It's like saying, "My three-storey beach house is no better than your cardboard box because neither will survive a direct hit from a nuke."

 

Besides, the changes that some of us have been talking about would actually make Iron Skin scale endlessly, no matter the level of the enemies.  If it's invulnerability that you toggle for short periods, not an extra layer of health, then it's just as viable in wave 60 T4 defense as it is five minutes into Apollodorus.

 

Making Iron Skin scale this way would even free up some of those mod slots you talked about for other mods, so we might actually get to see some Rhinos built to capitalize on the not-actually-terrible Roar.

[Azawarau]

Honestly, I'm not sure which would be better.  I would probably say invincibility, given that it would already have the drawback of reduced speed.  It would also fit less along the lines of "emergency armor" if it only gave DR; if you're activating it at low health, then even high DR won't improve survivability much.

Both would make him too powerful imo

 

Coptering and rush would remedy the slow unless it was extreme and in that case itd be useful without invi

 

With invi itd be broken

 

Its a tough skill to work out ya know

 

*sigh* This again?

 

A couple of points,

 

1) Rhino is seen on new players first because it is a very, very easy to get Frame early in the game.  Second, because he is easy to use, much easier to use than the excalibur.  So *gasp* new players are using the easy/early to get frame that is also easy for new players to use.  Shock.  Horror.  Rhino Prime is seen on a lot of veteran players because it was the recent 'vague' frame.  Now Loki Prime is.

 

2) Iron Skin is a 'great' ability early in the game.  There is no doubt about that.  But take Iron Skin to higher level content, T3/4 and Pluto, especially on Defense and Survival and watch that shield get shredded.  Unless your packing Blind Rage, Focus, Streamline, and possibly a Fleeting Expertise depending on how far you take Blind Rage, that Iron Skin ability is next to useless against Heavy Gunners and high level infested swarms...and don't even get me started on corpus fire power.

 

That means you need to dedicate 3-4 mod slots to make Iron Skin viable in late game content, plus the Iron Skin ability slot itself, which raises the used mod slots to 4-5.  Don't tell me that power is too strong when it require 3-4 mod slots as crutch in order to be viable.

 

3) There were some mentions of Roar throughout the post.  Yeah...that's a new player mistake.  Aside from close-knit teams that coordinate, and new players, I have yet to see a Rhino player actually use that.  I myself don't have room for roar, and don't need the extra damage anyway.

Time out

 

Rhino prime became the most used prime the moment he was released

 

Even now when loki prime is out its clear that rhino prime is still more commonly used

 

Endgame falloff is not a defense.  No ability that relies on numbers is viable in high-level content, even less so in endless or T4 missions.  It's like saying, "My three-storey beach house is no better than your cardboard box because neither will survive a direct hit from a nuke."

 

Besides, the changes that some of us have been talking about would actually make Iron Skin scale endlessly, no matter the level of the enemies.  If it's invulnerability that you toggle for short periods, not an extra layer of health, then it's just as viable in wave 60 T4 defense as it is five minutes into Apollodorus.

 

Making Iron Skin scale this way would even free up some of those mod slots you talked about for other mods, so we might actually get to see some Rhinos built to capitalize on the not-actually-terrible Roar.

That depends somewhat on how you define end game

 

For most its that intended range DE set

 

If youre going 2 hours into T 4 defense youre going beyond end game and though it is possible to do we sho9uld all know better than to use this as an example of end game when really its pushing the mechanics of the game to its limits

[Arunafeltz]

Leave it at 100% damage reduction, but make it a toggle that drains power quickly. No more fire-and-forget buffing, make people choose when to use it and not use it. Make them plan and put it up before charging or react and put it up when caught in the open. Same gameplay at all levels since it's time based rather than HP based. Tank being supported by anyone who generates power like Nekros or Trinity. Multiple build options and mod interactions and loadout considerations to get/keep/generate power.

 

My 2¢

I wouldn't mind 100% DR but then it shouldn't be affected by power efficiency mods. 

[DSpite]

I wish you would all stop treating this game like an MMO and continue to make comments regarding skills like it is in fact one.

 

We have mobs that constantly drop energy and health and ammo non stop, most of the missions involve infinite amounts of mobs that constantly rush us, I'm pretty sure each team member can carry 100 each of ammo/energy/health restores to turtle up on a cryopod regardless of what usage rules you make on frames/guns/abilities, and we can all carry hundreds of Specters that we can re-deploy the instance they die to add additional firepower.

 

Every "Boss" can be killed in seconds - outside of ones with invul stages, by solo frames with a trivial, but select , mod setup - and I keep reading that DE never even tried to balance this game for mobs of 40+ levels. In WoW or GW2 unless you have on screen notes, you don't even know exactly how to kill the things.

 

This game should be treated as if the "end content" is missions with mobs that start at around 30, with extra scaling to 40 for some battles and maybe some special challenging fight in range of say 60, and even then, those numbers simply to give the mobs better damage scaling for threat and improved damage mitigation. Simply having this range, and tweaking mob numbers, the game can be kept fast and interesting enough that all frames are viable and more to the point simply fun to use.

 

If you want to deal with cooldowns and micromanaging ability timers, why don't you all go play a nice MMO with a monthly fee, and leave my high speed Ninja game alone? This is a shooter and the only thing so far that I see as a problem is that the mobs are a bit bland. That's it.

 

The descriptions of this game made it sound like a Borderlands 2 on steroids, with the added bonus that content was always been added and tweaked. The descriptions were right. If you want Global Agenda's level of balance, go play Global Agenda.

[Azawarau]

I wish you would all stop treating this game like an MMO and continue to make comments regarding skills like it is in fact one.

 

We have mobs that constantly drop energy and health and ammo non stop, most of the missions involve infinite amounts of mobs that constantly rush us, I'm pretty sure each team member can carry 100 each of ammo/energy/health restores to turtle up on a cryopod regardless of what usage rules you make on frames/guns/abilities, and we can all carry hundreds of Specters that we can re-deploy the instance they die to add additional firepower.

 

Every "Boss" can be killed in seconds - outside of ones with invul stages, by solo frames with a trivial, but select , mod setup - and I keep reading that DE never even tried to balance this game for mobs of 40+ levels. In WoW or GW2 unless you have on screen notes, you don't even know exactly how to kill the things.

 

This game should be treated as if the "end content" is missions with mobs that start at around 30, with extra scaling to 40 for some battles and maybe some special challenging fight in range of say 60, and even then, those numbers simply to give the mobs better damage scaling for threat and improved damage mitigation. Simply having this range, and tweaking mob numbers, the game can be kept fast and interesting enough that all frames are viable and more to the point simply fun to use.

 

If you want to deal with cooldowns and micromanaging ability timers, why don't you all go play a nice MMO with a monthly fee, and leave my high speed Ninja game alone? This is a shooter and the only thing so far that I see as a problem is that the mobs are a bit bland. That's it.

 

The descriptions of this game made it sound like a Borderlands 2 on steroids, with the added bonus that content was always been added and tweaked. The descriptions were right. If you want Global Agenda's level of balance, go play Global Agenda.

I could write an award winning essay on how wrong you re but thatd just be silly derailment