A Solution To The Mod Problem.

[Octoknightx]

Removing them wont make diamond skin of flame repellent more useful, even if you remove 4 mods there are at least 4 mods better than diamond and flame.

This is a different problem that the devs are...less likely to change. My options don't require the devs to rework any mods at all. Just remove flat damage mods(Heavy caliber and other corrupted mods can stay) and health, shield and armor mods and make it so we get better the higher level we are and the enemies are also harder but not meatbags or on steroids. The difficulty will feel the same as if you were level 1 since the enemies will be balanced around our max damage capabilities and survivability.

PYRA SUGATRA!

[Tarudizer]

Well... duh.

 

Yes I read your post. You dismissed someone elses opinion on the "they are game designers, so they know better".

You didn't tell a good reason why his opinion (not giving them any rating) is wrong.

 

Atleast we agree on enemy diversity being a problem.

 

PS. "No offense" is widely used as excuse to just say something offensive. If you don't want to be offensive... maybe word your post differently?

 

I never said that. I said that they know what they want with their game, I never said what they are doing is actually good or not. That is also the reason, if its good or not is up to you to decide. There is also the fact that similar threads like this pops up every other day, and they are rarely that different from each other and DE has on many occasions (and very recently and very strongly) dismissed this, as their idea doesn't match what the players have come up with, which is what I have explained already.

 

No offense is also used to mean no offense, you know. I'm just here to discuss rationally and calmly, not argue, thus I don't really need to get offensive to get my point across (even if people disagree, which is fine).

[SirSlayer]

DE has on many occasions (and very recently and very strongly) dismissed this, as their idea doesn't match what the players have come up with, which is what I have explained already.

This is your first solid point and I can totally live with that.

 

It is entirely their product and I do not necessarily agree with the OP but in my opinion some things need change. They reek of bad game design.

[Innocent_Flower]

Stopped reading at 3. 

 

Edited July 5, 2014 by Innocent_Flower

[Davoodoo]

This is a different problem that the devs are...less likely to change. My options don't require the devs to rework any mods at all. Just remove flat damage mods(Heavy caliber and other corrupted mods can stay) and health, shield and armor mods and make it so we get better the higher level we are and the enemies are also harder but not meatbags or on steroids. The difficulty will feel the same as if you were level 1 since the enemies will be balanced around our max damage capabilities and survivability.

PYRA SUGATRA!

If i had extra slots on my weapons i would put. in that priority and if i havent got them already:

Punch through( if i havent got any already)

Regular elemental mods

Shred

Event mods

Dual elemental mods

Speed trigger

Hammer shot(if crit weapon)

Charged chamber(if sniper)

Reload speed

Clip size

Crit mods(if non crit weapon)

Additional punch through(if i had some already)

Status mods

Recoil decrease

Additional specific enemy dmg increase

Ammo reserve increase

 

And each one from this list would become mandatory.

 

Its not problem of having only 8 slots in weapons, its problem of having unbalanced mods, my list consists of whatever i estimate would give me highest dps increase.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Davoodoo

[SIDESTRE4M]

The problem is that 3 of those 4 are mandatory and take away one of the customisation slots for weapons/frames.

 

When was the last time (if ever) that you equipped diamond skin or flame repellent?

These mods had potential but they came totally butchered into the game.

They are mandatory especially because their function is a progress bar.

 

Don't look at everything with just the eyes of a veteran. I would totally equip diamond skin after leaving Mercury for the first time and after encountering many evil laser bots.

 

You would think people would gladly give up their Serrations, Hornet Strikes, etc. in order to fix the game. And anyway who said it has to be a legendary core. Just as long as it is decent. Maybe some accessories. PYRA SUGATRA PLEASE!

And if you read everything you would've seen my point on balancing enemies around our max damage and survivability at rank 30, no more meatbags or crazy super damage guys. So with the natural progression of leveling your warframe and weapons you gain more health, shields, damage, etc. as the enemies also get harder. This is my point.

 

No point for hostility, bro. I get your point, did you get mine?

 

Obviously the balacing is off, that doesn't even need to be discussed. This idea however is not the answer in my opinion.

 

I have those ten point card maxed. It was a lot of effort, nothing compared to just play a frame/gun to 30. It shows my progress in the game as whole and I'm where I am though this work. If you want to have it the easier, more simplified way, your choice, your opinion.

 

Please remember, just having those mods maxed, doesn't mean you can automatically use them everywhere. The next step is putting formas into your weapons/frames, so you are even able to use them, which means even more work and that for every frame/weapon.

 

What you basically want is: Remove all the hard work.

 

EDIT: And ironically you would even remove varity, because some players don't use vitality mods in favor for more utility/power/whatever (requires more skill to play). So you would generalise the game even more than with mandatory mods. Think about it.

Edited July 5, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M

[SirSlayer]

They are mandatory especially because their function is a progress bar.

 

Don't look at everything with just the eyes of a veteran. I would totally equip diamond skin after leaving Mercury for the first time and after encountering many evil laser bots.

Two interesting points. I'll think about the progress bar for a little.

 

 

Will you get that after leaving mercury though?

Will you be able to max it for some real effect?

Will you have the nerve to switch it up everytime you face different enemys?

 

edit: I just rechecked diamond skin is now at 45% maxed.... that's already better than before and against corpus not even that bad.

 

Also it's a valid point thinking about non-vets, I try to do that from time to time, remembering how hard the beginning was.

How it has become harder and harder with time to start out.

Edited July 5, 2014 by SirSlayer

[Me.KayOh]

1. Remove all damage and multishot mods. Crit mods maybe...but that might ruin Paris Prime and Soma...refer to point 3 for additional details.

2. Give everyone legendary cores for every mod removed. Yeah this might ruin the market...but lets face it...I don't care.

3. Increase weapons' damage, crit chance, crit damage, ammo capactiy, reload speed, rate of fire etc.(not all of these at once but just showing what could increase) every time you level. Ex: Let's say you got a gun that does 25 damage at unranked. If you level it to rank 1 the damage then increases to 30(random guess, the amount of damage is up to devs).

4. Add Pyra Sugatra

5. Remove all health, shield, and armor mods and give everyone a legendary core for every mod removed(this includes sentinels). Make them increase with each level like with weapons. So for those who like to Rage+Life Strike+Hysteria Valkyr they would just have to level to 30 to increase their armor and health to the fullest(whatever is the fullest is up to devs). Also maybe Intesify, Stretch, and Continuity should also be removed and our powers would just level along with us like(give everyone legendary cores for those too).

6. Balance all enemies around the max damage and health/shields/armor we can now have. No meatbags or damage steroids please :/

7. Add Pyra Sugatra

8. Make grenades bounce off of Frost's Snowglobe please...friend of mine died to one that went through...or at least it was the explosion in which case it shouldn't be happening.

9. FIX GRENADES! Add an indicator...or just remove them until you can totally revamp them in U50. [rant off]

10. Obviously fix some powers here and there and buff some weapons etc.

11. Add Pyra Sugatra

12. GG you deserve some Kubr O's with Greedy Milk.

 

Sure the game still isn't perfect but it just got a whole lot better.

i dont agree with these suggestions, but i love the fact that there are still people around who are willing to just help out with their ideas, instead of logging in here, ranting and raving against DE with speculation and insulting posts and comments while adding nothing useful to the community.

 

You my good sir/madam get a +1.

Edited July 5, 2014 by kalikilic

[SIDESTRE4M]

Two interesting points. I'll think about the progress bar for a little.

 

 

Will you get that after leaving mercury though?

Will you be able to max it for some real effect?

Will you have the nerve to switch it up everytime you face different enemys?

 

edit: I just rechecked diamond skin is now at 45% maxed.... that's already better than before and against corpus not even that bad.

 

Also it's a valid point thinking about non-vets, I try to do that from time to time, remembering how hard the beginning was.

How it has become harder and harder with time to start out.

 

 

Honestly, cards like diamond skin or some basic packs should be given by lotus to new players per ingame message after mercury. Simple basic mods.

Not the hyper special ones.

 

New players would enjoy becoming something for their progress and automatically focus more on the mod system.

Edited July 5, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M

[SirSlayer]

Honestly, cards like diamond skin or some basic packs should be given by lotus to new players per ingame message after mercury. Simple basic mods.

Not the hyper special ones.

 

New players would enjoy becoming something for their progress and automatically focus more on the mod system.

Agreed the new player progression is awful. Has been always as far as I can remember. (though that's another topic)

[Octoknightx]

I guess we all agree there is a problem...AND WE NEED PYRA SUGATRA!

[Psroij]

There's no mod problem

Yes there is. Whether DE(Steve) wants to admit it or not there is a major mod problem. The problem is that someone with the "necessary" mods are ~100x more powerful and effective than players without those same mods. If you cannot see how that is a problem for a game that is set up like Warframe is, then frankly, you should not be attempting to take part in these discussions.

 

So to summarise remove the mod system is what you are saying? 

No, that is not what OP was saying at all. Your trite answer was not clever in the slightest, in fact, it showed you to be completely incapable of understanding what OP was clearly saying.

 

This is too extreme.  The whole game is built around mods, throwing most of them out would be disrupting.  And without mods, legendary cores are useless.  Base damage and multishot mods need a simple nerf, not removal.

No, they need removed. Nerfing them solves nothing. Why? Simple, if you nerf them enough that they do not feel necessary then no one is going to even waste the time leveling up and they become the new mods that drop and take up space, on the other hand, if they are not nerfed enough they stay necessary and everyone still uses them because nothing else even comes close to being as good.

 

It is that binary with these mods and the way DE balances the game.

 

Further, these mods are why new player experiences suck, unless the new player gets extremely lucky or gets carried by other people.

 

The power gap —let's be real, it is not a power gap, it is a power canyon— is so large that if DE balances around the top end of the power curve by assuming everyone has certain mods then anyone without those mods is useless on their team. If DE balances around the low end and assumes everyone does not have those mods then the only people challenged are the "have nots". If DE balanced around the middle then you have Warframe now, where the people with the mods are in yawn-fest missions until they reach the 30+ minute mark, but everyone else is struggling when they hit 15 (or sooner) minute mark.

 

These mods are the direct cause of this. These mods are what are responsible for the utterly terrible balance Warframe has right now, where the response to increase difficulty is just ramping up NPC damage and health to absurd numbers. These mods are why the new player experience is craptastic unless they get lucky or get charity (which defeats the entire point of Warframe's progression). These mods are why every other mod choice is a false choice, because DE will always have to balance with these mods in mind, and so even if they are heavily nerfed but useful they will still always be guaranteed a mod slot in a weapon/frame/sentinel.

 

These mods suck. They are not good design. So, unless DE wants to seriously overhaul every single NPC and frame, while also guaranteeing that new players will be able to obtain these mods easily, then these mods will always be a problem.

 

The mod system does not need to be removed, but DE does need to change their approach with the mod system. Certain mods absolutely need to go, and elements should not cause stacking damage, to improve the health of the game. DE also needs to stop thinking the collection of mods (and the weapons/frames) is in any way comparable to loot games such as Diablo, PoE, etc. and instead focus on making Warframe a compelling action oriented TPS that will keep players wanting to play for the game play, and wanting to spend money so that they can make that game play interesting with weapons that feel unique and change how they play.

 

Right now we have cookie cutter-builds because of specific weapon mods that offer false choice, the majority of frames are one-trick-ponies with other mods that offer false choices, and AI that is so braindead and one dimensionally challenging that it encourages those cookie-cutter one-trick-pony builds even more.

 

DE could narrow the power gap, and make balancing much easier and less of a headache —as well as improve the new player experience— by removing the troublesome mods, keep the feeling of progression through all weapons by making the damage/status-effect/crit ramp up with individual weapon level. This will actually make tiering the weapons easier as well, because DE will have some predictable baselines that are independent of the troublesome pure damage mods and stacking damage mechanic that can be effectively cheated with potatoes.

 

Right now progression is tied to the mods, and it makes leveling new weapons and frames a joke. A player levels their serration, multi-shot, redirection, vitality, etc. just once, and that is it, never worry about it again. Couple that with auras and being able to buy potatoes and suddenly a level 4 frame of a veteran is a walking tank compared to the level 30 frame of a newer player who has not been lucky.

 

DE needs to bite the bullet and cut the losses on these bad mods, so that the mod system can actually be made as flexible and adaptable as they want it to be. This is, ostensibly, beta, after all, and if there is any time it should be done it is now, whether it upsets people who "put in so much time, waaah!" or not.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Psroij

[SIDESTRE4M]

Wow, sry, there seems to be a lot of emotion flowing through you entire post.

 

So the result you describe is this:

Instead of a level 4 veteran frame tanky like a newby 30 frame, we will have a newby 30 frame that is on par with a 30 veteran frame.

Not sure if I like it.

 

This canyon you speak of is there and it is huge. You are probably right about that.

On the other hand, it's the same in every game where you have to level up stuff.

Warframe has RPG-Elements, and you won't find any game like that, where you don't have stuff for early game and later on.

It's the same with mods. In the beginning you put in, what you've got. Even second and third choices, but you don't start a game with first choices only. Removing first-choices will promote second-choices to first ones.

 

So you basically want to level the entire curve, so everyone beeing veteran or not will move together power-wise.

 

Well. Maybe work and effort deserves to bear fruits. If you remove that from warframe, you'll do the starmap and call it a day with this game.

 

Sometimes I just think people see "S#&$, I have to do so much to be on par with the guys I just saw in this mission, but I don't wanna."

So another resolution is going to forums and proposing removing that barrier called results/effort.

(I don't want to accuse you, but trust me, there will be a lot of people thinking that way...)

 

So if you want to tone down rpg elements and move it even more to a tactic shooter, that's your thing to demand, but you should still respect people who don't share that opinion.

 

What you write is a possible change, not a neccessary one.

Don't misunderstand that line. There has to be done something and the list is quite long.

DE has to tidy up the tier-system and just have lotus send the beginners a pack of basic mods after they complete maybe Mercury, so they can start right away going up with Serration and the like.

 

Like you said, currently it's like this: Mod progression > weapon progression.

The positive aspect is: You invest the work only once and then have the freedom to choose a weapons more freely and I like that actually.

Edited July 6, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M

[BrotherIcarus]

No, that is not what OP was saying at all. Your trite answer was not clever in the slightest, in fact, it showed you to be completely incapable of understanding what OP was clearly saying.

On first glance that is what it looks like.

[DSpite]

This is a different issue. My point is not about the difficulty of enemies really. Just how removing certain mods and balancing the enemies around our max damage and survivability will make this game better. Also Pyra Sugatra. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

No damn it, IT IS NOT A DIFFERENT ISSUE.

 

How can you state, in the same sentence "My point is not about the difficulty of enemies really" and 5 words later say "balancing the enemies around our max damage", I can read you know, I won't just ignore that.

 

Is that all you really want in a combat to make it challenging? Something that won't die in 1 burst but takes less then 10 bursts? You want combat balanced around how many shots you have to fire to kill stuff?

 

Facts:

 

* We can slaughter the starting waves in Defence starting at say mob level 30

* We get slaughtered by waves once they have damage mitigation high enough that we run out of bullets, say, level 100 (200? 300? I don't know) mobs.

 

What I read in those two lines:

 

* Perhaps simply having mobs that are only targets with a HP pool is not as good as complex mobs that need players to use some tactics, or have abilities that can counter our really cheap tricks.

 

I want "challenge" centered around having more things to do in a fight, not around an optimal time-to-kill value.

[Octoknightx]

No damn it, IT IS NOT A DIFFERENT ISSUE.

 

How can you state, in the same sentence "My point is not about the difficulty of enemies really" and 5 words later say "balancing the enemies around our max damage", I can read you know, I won't just ignore that.

 

Is that all you really want in a combat to make it challenging? Something that won't die in 1 burst but takes less then 10 bursts? You want combat balanced around how many shots you have to fire to kill stuff?

 

Facts:

 

* We can slaughter the starting waves in Defence starting at say mob level 30

* We get slaughtered by waves once they have damage mitigation high enough that we run out of bullets, say, level 100 (200? 300? I don't know) mobs.

 

What I read in those two lines:

 

* Perhaps simply having mobs that are only targets with a HP pool is not as good as complex mobs that need players to use some tactics, or have abilities that can counter our really cheap tricks.

 

I want "challenge" centered around having more things to do in a fight, not around an optimal time-to-kill value.

And my point doesn't address better AI...that would be the challenge :/...but yes my point does fix some of the "challenge" if you will...

[DSpite]

Your solution does not make the game more interesting. Changing mods and guns so that the only net difference is how much damage we are sending down a corridor does not make the game more interesting.

 

What makes the game more interesting is for us to have enemies on the other end of our barrel that do not simply die under 1 second of focus fire.

 

So you change my mods and gun completely so instead of doing 10K DPS on a 6 Forma gun, I only do 5K DPS? I'll just shoot them for a full second instead. Please explain how you have made the game better.

 

Right now we only have the Arctic Eximus unit - the one with the frost shield - that is actually capable of surviving longer then about 2 seconds after being spotted, but only as long as no one remembered to bring a Penta or Ogris, as apparently the blast penetrates the shield and he dies anyway.

[Liminal]

I mostly agree. Damage and enemy scaling are the bane of all balance in WF imo.

[Octoknightx]

Your solution does not make the game more interesting. Changing mods and guns so that the only net difference is how much damage we are sending down a corridor does not make the game more interesting.

 

What makes the game more interesting is for us to have enemies on the other end of our barrel that do not simply die under 1 second of focus fire.

 

So you change my mods and gun completely so instead of doing 10K DPS on a 6 Forma gun, I only do 5K DPS? I'll just shoot them for a full second instead. Please explain how you have made the game better.

 

Right now we only have the Arctic Eximus unit - the one with the frost shield - that is actually capable of surviving longer then about 2 seconds after being spotted, but only as long as no one remembered to bring a Penta or Ogris, as apparently the blast penetrates the shield and he dies anyway.

This is why I said to balance the enemies around the maximum damage we can do and how much damage we can take.

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

1. Remove all damage and multishot mods. Crit mods maybe...but that might ruin Paris Prime and Soma...refer to point 3 for additional details.

2. Give everyone legendary cores for every mod removed. Yeah this might ruin the market...but lets face it...I don't care.

3. Increase weapons' damage, crit chance, crit damage, ammo capactiy, reload speed, rate of fire etc.(not all of these at once but just showing what could increase) every time you level. Ex: Let's say you got a gun that does 25 damage at unranked. If you level it to rank 1 the damage then increases to 30(random guess, the amount of damage is up to devs).

4. Add Pyra Sugatra

5. Remove all health, shield, and armor mods and give everyone a legendary core for every mod removed(this includes sentinels). Make them increase with each level like with weapons. So for those who like to Rage+Life Strike+Hysteria Valkyr they would just have to level to 30 to increase their armor and health to the fullest(whatever is the fullest is up to devs). Also maybe Intesify, Stretch, and Continuity should also be removed and our powers would just level along with us like(give everyone legendary cores for those too).

6. Balance all enemies around the max damage and health/shields/armor we can now have. No meatbags or damage steroids please :/

7. Add Pyra Sugatra

8. Make grenades bounce off of Frost's Snowglobe please...friend of mine died to one that went through...or at least it was the explosion in which case it shouldn't be happening.

9. FIX GRENADES! Add an indicator...or just remove them until you can totally revamp them in U50. [rant off]

10. Obviously fix some powers here and there and buff some weapons etc.

11. Add Pyra Sugatra

12. GG you deserve some Kubr O's with Greedy Milk.

 

Sure the game still isn't perfect but it just got a whole lot better.

Sounds good to me. Number 2 is my favorite part. *grins* I should pen something for her one of these days.