_Rue_ Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 (edited) Notes so far: Please avoid posting about the following: MOD IS NOT A SKILL ARGUMENT As mentioned below, SKILL isn't limited to mid mission acrobatics/parkour (yes i'm not saying that that is not skill), it also takes skill to create and modify builds before and after matches. It also takes SKILL to manage finite resources like stamina and time. This mod will allow you to use the move, but just because you have the mod, it doesn't mean that you can use it properly (skillfully). AIM BOTS AND HIT SCAN People still do not get that enemies with hit scan weapons (mostly Grineer) cannot be evaded. you can only time invincibility frames correctly to avoid. This applies to PVE. PVP of course your fellow tenno do not have targeting computers so with hit scan weapons failing to aim correctly results in a miss... which is not a problem with AI aim bots... SO... dodge all you want, they will not miss unless said dodges have i frames built in. Of course a solution to this would be to convert all weapons to projectile (non hit scan) WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE A MOD ARGUMENT Yes it has to be a mod because you can't have everything. Limited mod slots ensure that BUT it could be a different type of mod as suggested by Augmenatus. Possibly something like: Evade (Mode Mod - Mode Slot currently doesn't exist) Adds replace roll with a super-fast ninja dash Reduces base shields vitality and armor by 25% Increases base stamina by 25% Defend (Mode Mod - Mode Slot currently doesn't exist) Replaces roll with block Increases base shields vitality and armor by 25% Reduces base stamina by 25% --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At the moment we have rolls... well which are surprisingly slow for ninja rolls. Aside from that, most of the enemies have hit scan weapons, so unless rolling has invincibility frames, it'll only usefull for the small burst of speed against non hit scan weapons, making evasion a very situational form of damage mitigation. The question now is: Can evasion be made into a more reliable, skill based method of damage mitigation? (Perhaps enough to replace the usage of some if not all the usual survival mods) My answer, that will be detailed below, is yes. The next question then becomes, should it happen? Well, let's see the data first, then we can discuss then decide. NEW Evasion proposal: Make Evasion a mod that replaces the roll function. Why a mod? Because it has to take one of those Warframe mod slots to limit it. In short, you'll have to sacrifice something to get it. The good thing is, if you're good enough at it, you can forgo heath and shield mods (or some of it). Rank 0: 75% Damage Reduction (partial hit) Rank 1: 100% Damage Reduction (miss) Rank 2: 100% Damage Reduction (miss); Offensive use Rank 3: 100% Damage Reduction (miss); Offensive use; in air evades Rank 4: 100% Damage Reduction (miss); Offensive use; in air evades; in air offensive use Rank 5: 100% Damage Reduction (miss); Offensive use; in air evades; in air offensive use; Evade attack (similar to slide attacks but with better visuals and is much faster - 3 hits) The max cost should be 16, Mod Polarity should be -. (OR D since most people who forma already have Ds for Survive-ability) NOTE: the values can still vary; mere proposals Implementation Evading, like rolling, consumes stamina (to be disclosed; about 5 evades for a full stamina bar-perhaps more maybe less). Evasion can take the form of a quick dash to the side (determined by WSAD input); blurred, almost teleport like for that ninja effect (or a really fast dash). In the future, evasion can interact with the surrounding objects (evade into handholds, Wall grips -the one after a wall climb and your frame just hangs and slides down the wall, perches over rails, canisters or containers) Evasion can also be done offensively when within range of an enemy, evasion automatically positions your beside or behind the enemy (possibly another mod can give this benefit), so you can start hacking through the enemy. Controls and Limits Stamina will be the main limiter. The better you are at it, the more you can dodge. Spamming it will eventually deplete your stamina. Sprinting all the time will also limit evasion since it also consumes stamina, same as spamming melee. TENTATIVELY: Perhaps Evasion can be a melee only ability, like block; perhaps a melee/sidearm only skill ability. What do you think? (I was considering a trigger system for this that nullifies stamina use with successful triggers but technical execution is problematic especially with hit scan weapons) Edited July 7, 2014 by _Rue_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMan Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 This is not some medieval game where you can evade arrows / spears / whatever. Try to evade bullets from 10, hell even 100 meters. Not even a space ninja can do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numerikuu Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 (edited) Can evasion be made into a more reliable, skill based method of damage mitigation? My answer, that will be detailed below, is yes. NEW Evasion proposal: Make Evasion a mod that replaces the roll function. A mod... equals skill... uhm... no. Evasions should be skill based, your own skill that is, not something you can only do if you have a mod slotted. Imo they should make the rolls and flips faster, right now they are too slow and don't cover enough distance, maybe even change their animations. But to remove them so you can only do them if you have a mod slotted? Just no. What next, remove slide so you can only use it if you have maglev or something similar on? If you want to mitigate damage don't go ramboing into a group of enemies, especially when one or a couple of them can knock you down and take your energy. Take cover, use parkour/coptering to cover distance, use skills wisely to control enemies or eliminate them, and use melee to deflect bullets so you can close in on the kill. As for harder enemies that comes down to team work. Edited July 5, 2014 by Numerikuu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrayFox Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
izzatuw Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 No. Just no. Why would it be a mod... I mean just no. Maybe if it were implemented in focus but mod is a big fat NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade343 Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Contents from post #1. Can we fix the current rolling mechanism first before suggesting more? After all, the current rolling mechanism requires the user to aim before rolling to the left or right, which is quite slow and marginally useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ionus Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Can we fix the current rolling mechanism first before suggesting more? After all, the current rolling mechanism requires the user to aim before rolling to the left or right, which is quite slow and marginally useful. You don't need to aim? If you aren't aiming down sights you can roll into any direction you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Rue_ Posted July 5, 2014 Author Share Posted July 5, 2014 (edited) This is not some medieval game where you can evade arrows / spears / whatever. Try to evade bullets from 10, hell even 100 meters. Not even a space ninja can do it. IF frames that can slow time (almost stop it) JUST for the enemies after stomping on the ground exist, this can exist too. A mod... equals skill... uhm... no. Evasions should be skill based, your own skill that is, not something you can only do if you have a mod slotted. Imo they should make the rolls and flips faster, right now they are too slow and don't cover enough distance, maybe even change their animations. But to remove them so you can only do them if you have a mod slotted? Just no. What next, remove slide so you can only use it if you have maglev or something similar on? If you want to mitigate damage don't go ramboing into a group of enemies, especially when one or a couple of them can knock you down and take your energy. Take cover, use parkour/coptering to cover distance, use skills wisely to control enemies or eliminate them, and use melee to deflect bullets so you can close in on the kill. As for harder enemies that comes down to team work. Think Grineer; then think hit scan. No matter how fast you flip, roll or move, hit scan WILL ALWAYS BE A SURE HIT. That's why people love hit scan weapons in the first place. Unless it gets i frames, it's not going to do anything. You know what takes skill? Timing, Stamina management, build creation; working with a finite resource. I think people should consider that SKILL isn't only at the "I'm playing the game" level, it also happens before the game and after when people plan builds and adapt to defeat. Regardless if you have VIT, SHIELDS or EVASION, if you run into the middle of a room filled with grineer, you WILL DIE. Parkour/acrobatics do not have to be replaced. In fact based on what i have so far, it would work wonders with someone who is already skilled at parkour/acrobatics. Wall run->evade to a flip->evade into a dash->slash? A MOD?! YES. I'm not talking about damage mitigation as an addition to Vitality and Redirection, I'm talking about it as a POSSIBLE REPLACEMENT. Imagine a frame with all 3 health/shield boost mods plus evasion. So where is the skill in that? If I make a mistake I will live to continue making the mistake and still be able to dish out the same amount of damage. Making it a mod forces players to use it as a replacement for at least one mod. Regardless of the kind of mod that gets left out of the build, a choice was still made; something was sacrificed. Edited July 5, 2014 by _Rue_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augmenatus Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 ok half agree and half not agree Dark Souls has a ring called the dark wood grain ring. instead of swat rolling to avoid damage it made your character do a front handspring as long as you were under 25% equip load. it took the spot of one of your 2 ring slots and prevented you from being super absorbent to damage by forcing you to wear only the minimal amount of gear. the effect it gave was temp invincibilty because of invincibilty frames at the beginning of the animation. Upside? Mobility. Downside? Your made of paper. Warframe to copy this would need to create another "Aura" slot not mod slot. and to make it fair and not OP equiping this Aura would have to have a negetive effect on polarity. Short story entirely possible just not as a mod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade343 Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 You don't need to aim? If you aren't aiming down sights you can roll into any direction you want. In the case that I need to roll sideways, I do not want to always try to press the left/right arrow key, hope that it faces in the direction I want, walk a bit then allow me to roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archistopheles Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Yeah, no, sorry. The whole livestream thing has got my jimmies rustled about any new mods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n0xi0us Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I totally disagree on a mod that would make me invulnerable at the push of a button over actually using my head and picking my shots.. especially if I am in a situation where I can get crushed by weapon fire. Game is easy enough as it is once the mods are gained, much less powered up. We don't need any more easy-mode things in this game, especially when all it would be "necessary" (and I use that term loosely) is in limitless modes, where stuff SHOULD be powered up to the point of one-shots if you stay in too long.. hence endless and not exactly a good point to try to balance around, much less something that while would help in that wild west of scaling, and absolutely break even further whatever shows up on the star chart. TL;DR: Stuff can almost be called broken as it is with the right mods, we don't need even MORE power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ionus Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 If memory serves, rolling provides limited damage reduction anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion-Shields Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboDoge Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Isnt evasion basically just moving around? I dont see any point in making evasion mechanics as you can just move around and avoid 90 % of damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naftal Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Sliding is much faster and better way of dodging than rolling and your success depends on your skill, but I think rolling has inbuilt damage reduction while it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndantony Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Sliding is much faster and better way of dodging than rolling and your success depends on your skill, but I think rolling has inbuilt damage reduction while it happens. ...based on the argument above "sliding" will need a mod, too. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naftal Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 ...based on the argument above "sliding" will need a mod, too. lol There's already Maglev that's very good improvement for sliding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaugahn Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 A change to the roll system is a great idea, but making it a mod is too polarizing at this point in time, what with the current controversy over band-aid mods. While I can see where you're coming from with having to give up health for speed, evasion would most likely just become another vitality and redirection and cut down our customization options even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dualstar Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 No, Before we even begin discussing any mod to improve evasion, evasion has to be worthwhile to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM-Bunny Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 This is so ironic, I was just thinking about this. The dodge roll in Warframe is positively useless. I think that it needs to be much quicker, and cover a greater distance to be relevant, comparable to the dodge roll in the "God of War" series. As far as relegating this to a mod card.. well tbh Steve mentioned in the last devstream that the mod system that exists allows players to modify and break the game's rules as they see fit. This certainly makes it sound more exciting than it is in actuality, but I believe having mods like this would be a step towards that vision. Imagine if powerful movement or combat based abilities were featured as mods, and your setup affected more than just raw numbers but the very way the game was played? I think this is an appealing idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulzscha Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Moved to the proper section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Chaser Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 (edited) side dash on double tap A or D, yes please. rolling to side is too slow. will be really fun to use in pvp imagine dashing sideways the F*** out of pvp conclaive arena with quake rocket launcher (or angstrum atleast) needs a proper railgun still. ah boy, this is going to be a blast Edited July 6, 2014 by n7snk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davoodoo Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Idk whoever put idea that mods = skill. If you are good you should be able to avoid stuff coming at you and quickly get out of knockdowns But if you suck you should always have ability to mod your shields/hp/armor and knockdown resistance to get same result. Thats of course till endgame where you would need to depend on both to stand any chance whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notlamprey Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I don't see why we couldn't have something like this. We already have Stances and Warframe mods like Rush, Maglev and Handspring. If people dislike the Mod system as a whole, that's a completely different issue. Go post about that somewhere else. I'd like to see a mod like this. Every opportunity to include another incomparable mod bonus is worth looking into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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