Mods Vs. Skill Tree. Surprise, You've Been Kidding Yourself!

[DarkStryder]

In light of the recent Dev stream id like to take a minute to point out something that many players seem to have missed.

 

Functionally there is no difference between a skill trees and the mod system.

 

Ill clarify, with one exception the difference is purely aesthetics.

 

If my character has a skill tree in which i allocated a finite amount of points, say 60. and my blank tree had things like  0/5 Intensify, 0/10 Serration, 0/10 Redirection, 0/10 Vitality, 0/10 Steel Fiber etc and i wanted to make a tanky frost Build for T4 Def so i maxed out abilities like Steel Fiber and Redirection etc then later i wanted to make a different build for a different type of mission so i spent some currency at a respec trainer to refund my talent points so as to make a different build... that is functionally identical to dragging on/off mod cards. the end result is 100% identical. the only difference is aesthetics/ergonomics of use. how the character performs and its stats would be 100% the same.

 

There is something interesting about using the mod system as opposed to a talent tree and it revolves around human psychology. 

 

The one exception/difference is that unlike a skill tree that has all abilities on it already you just need to level up enough to get the points to reach a top level talent like say Split Chamber, but with mods its like having a blank tree and needing to find the abilities. You may simply never find a Split Chamber so you are forced to pick a sub-optimal talent.

 

Just like in games with skill trees that have cookie cutter correct builds that are just mathematically stronger with the majority of the tree being suboptimal, we have mods like 165% rifle damage that are better than most everything else.

 

Why is this interesting? Ill explain.

 

A kid goes into a candy store, asks for 200g of jelly beans.

Scenario 1) The shop keeper dumps a huge pile onto the scale and removes enough to have only 200g left.

Scenario 2) The shop keeper adds a little bit repeatedly until the pile grows to 200g.

Both scenarios the child gets exactly the same amount of candy but subconsciously the scenario where he sees his pile shrink is disheartening while the scenario where the pile grows is exciting.

 

Essentially because players will enjoy finding a mod more than allocating points up a tree, regardless of the fact the outcome is the same, we have an opportunity to make what is essentially just adding points up a tree an exciting event but run the risk of frustrating players that just arent lucky enough to get the drops. If the new quest system will ensure new players receive some basic mods like Serration right off the bat (think lower tier of talent tree), it isnt a stretch to think late game quests (think unlocking all of pluto) will provide end game mods like Split Chamber. (the top of the tree) This will remove the frustration of RNG (seeing the candy pile diminish) while giving players a feeling of accomplishment. (seeing the candy pile grow)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[thegamer118]

oh wow

[Nalo1993]

I would much rather have both a Mod system and Skill tree. Mod system for utilities/mandatory (Shields, Health, armor, Stamina, ex.) and a skill tree for Tenno abilities. 

 

Edit: and yes I agree mod system and skill tree is pretty much the same exact thing. One is just smaller, and the other one is a larger more complex system. Or that's how I see it.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Nalo1993

[DarkStryder]

I would much rather have both a Mod system and Skill tree. Mod system for utilities/mandatory (Shields, Health, armor, Stamina, ex.) and a skill tree for Tenno abilities. 

 

Edit: and yes I agree mod system and skill tree is pretty much the same exact thing. One is just smaller, and the other one is a larger more complex system. Or that's how I see it.

i made a thread a while ago talking about not having to choose between performance and convenience. i think we are thinking along the same lines just picture different execution.

[locojuan]

ha! thanks pal !! nice way to put it. i agree, but prepare for flames.

[SquirmyBurrito]

[eprstt]

please do not try to make jokes. system mods and skill tree - different things. difference in one simple thing - a skill tree has all the skills, but the mods system only 11 cells. 

 

do U not see the difference between the all-powerful generalist with a bunch of skills and frame for certain situation - very misleading. 

 

or attempt to fool others? ;)

 

p.s. sorry for my english

Edited July 5, 2014 by eprstt

[Monolake]

mod card system is more flexible than skilltree aboviously

[Nalo1993]

 

please do not try to make jokes. system mods and skill tree - different things. difference in one simple thing - a skill tree has all the skills, but the mods system only 11 cells. 

 

do U not see the difference between the all-powerful generalist with a bunch of skills and frame for certain situation - very misleading. 

 

or attempt to fool others? ;)

 

p.s. sorry for my english

 

Look at this way.

 

Example: Skill tree 30 different nodes to select, and it all adds up to 120% damage on a ability or rifle.

 

Example 2: Mod system allows only 8-12 slots to fill, and it all adds up to 120% damage on a ability or rifle.

 

They are both the same thing except with a skill tree everything is given to you, and with a mod system you have to find what makes your ability good

 

i made a thread a while ago talking about not having to choose between performance and convenience. i think we are thinking along the same lines just picture different execution.

I was actually thinking of making one myself with my own ideas (I've seen the giant in which Zamboni's thread is), and show my own ideas. I'll take a look at yours cause I am curious to see how you view it.

[DarkStryder]

mod card system is more flexible than skilltree aboviously

if by flexible you mean the ergonomics of dragging cards as opposed to having an avatar interact with a respec npc than yes. if you mean ability potential.. then no, they would be identical

Edited July 5, 2014 by DarkStryder

[DarkStryder]

 

please do not try to make jokes. system mods and skill tree - different things. difference in one simple thing - a skill tree has all the skills, but the mods system only 11 cells. 

 

do U not see the difference between the all-powerful generalist with a bunch of skills and frame for certain situation - very misleading. 

 

or attempt to fool others? ;)

 

p.s. sorry for my english

 

i feel strongly the language barrier is causing us problems because i covered those issues in my original post. but ill try to explain. having 11 slots for mod cards is the same as having a limited amount of points for a tree. you cannot pick everything so you pick the best ones. example +90% elemental damage is better than +60% elemental damage, or having a mod that is leveled 6/10 because you dont have enough points left on the frame to fit a maxed mod is the same as on a skill tree only leveling a talent 6/10 because you are out of points to spend

 

or perhaps you meant that because some mods are better you dont have slots to put anything but the best? that is the same as running out of points to spend on a tree.

Edited July 5, 2014 by DarkStryder

[Monolake]

if by flexible you mean the ergonomics of dragging cards as opposed to having an avatar interact with a respec npc than yes. if you mean ability potential.. then no, they would be identical

Tree by definition means that one thing comes after another while mods can be used in any order independently and installed in any combination.

And actually some people seem to dislike it

[DarkStryder]

Tree by definition means that one thing comes after another while mods can be used in any order independently and installed in any combination.

And actually some people seem to dislike it

yes and no. many trees have tiers, so that once enough points have been put into tier 1 you may start putting points into tier 2.. same thing here. some mods require other mods to already be installed before they become worthwhile. simply example, you wouldnt put a 90% elemental mod before a 165% serration. you apply serration first, then the elemental mods, in that example serration is the tier 1 talent and the the elemental damage is tier 2.  A Soma crit build would be another example.

 

im nit picking a little here, objectively you have a strong point i just feel it isnt enough to invalidate my original post 

[eprstt]

yes. my english is very lame. sorry. but i understand your basic idea, I think. and i do not see the new in it =) 

 

skill tree - a fixed sequence of skills or abilities. as well as limited  slots for mods. ability to quickly change capabilities of weapons/frames - lost. If developing skills consistently. nope?

 

why not give the opportunity not to use +165% of base damage but raise the status of weapon (elemental mods for explosion for example). flexibility of the system is lost by that way. nope?

 

mobility of skills is lost too. system allows you to quickly reconfigure set of mods for excalibur (for example) to control or to damage and back. have 2 or 3 sets of mods in the frame. switch between them. skill tree - stationary system. developed - stopped. nope?

 

in total: 

if you will not restrict access to mods by tiers and

if opportunity to have a different skill tree for a single device / frame will stay like now 

then - the introduction of the skill tree - the proposal to rename the system mods?

but if not - do U really wanna put the development of skills in the strict limits? why? flexibility and mobility - what could be better?

 

no offence - just weak english =)

 

[Moderius]

if by flexible you mean the ergonomics of dragging cards as opposed to having an avatar interact with a respec npc than yes. if you mean ability potential.. then no, they would be identical

 

There are a lot of asinine things about this entire concept, but your jellybeans metaphor is just rubbish. You cite "human psychology" based on "what is convenient to make you sound right". That kind of lowbrow argument is just an insult to intelligence. I mean, if you're going to cite "human psychology" you may want to actually reference something instead of just making it up.

 

Like for instance that actual psychological study, which shows the opposite of what you claim psychology says. The perception of a larger gain with some reductions is greater than that of smaller gains with no reductions. So, your claim on psychology: no.

 

And you completely ignore what makes skill trees and mods entirely different. Do you not know what a skill tree is? Skill trees have progression, which means fixed paths, which mean that it limits player choice. They are fundamentally different. You keep claiming that they're the same, but if they were the same, they would not be two different things.

 

Are a peanut and a potato the same thing? They grow in the ground, you can eat them, you can cook with them, they're the same right? No? Well, you can make them sound the same by just selectively ignoring huge differences in their function and structure.

[Moderius]

im nit picking a little here, objectively you have a strong point i just feel it isnt enough to invalidate my original post 

 

Explain how the point that disproves that Mods and skill trees are the same does not disprove your original post, which claims that mods and skill trees are the same.

[DarkStryder]

Explain how the point that disproves that Mods and skill trees are the same does not disprove your original post, which claims that mods and skill trees are the same.

it does not disprove that they are the same. it is an illusion. i explained clearly that certain mods require other mods to be installed first to be of any use and thus is the same as moving up the tree... or i explained that some mods are so good (serration) that they are required "choices", again making choice an illusion

 

there is also the concept that these stats/improvements are not tied directly to leveling up, allocated points into a tree or eating points with a mod.. the end result is identical. 

Edited July 6, 2014 by DarkStryder

[Moderius]

it does not disprove that they are the same. it is an illusion. i explained clearly that certain mods require other mods to be installed first to be of any use and thus is the same as moving up the tree

 

So you're basing your argument on this thing that you just made up.

 

Surprise! You've been kidding yourself!

[mechdeus]

So you're basing your argument on this thing that you just made up.

 

Surprise! You've been kidding yourself!

This. If I choose to load up a weapon with a mods consisting entirely of status effects and status chance I can do so, but with a skill tree I would be forced to pick things which might include other stuff that I might not want. Whether or not one is better than the other is debatable (they both have pros and cons), but they are not the same thing. If we did have trees they would be constantly getting overhauled and/or screwed up with the introductions of new mods every few months. Just look at all the mod cards we have and imagine putting all of those into a skill tree.

 

If serration was six levels deep into the tree and required putting points into intruder, would your skill tree build be the same as your current mod build?

[Tarille]

Skill Trees and Mod Cards are functionally different.

 

A skill tree requires linear progression and often involves choices (For example, skills that specifically require previous tier skills to be picked, limited amount of points to spend on each tier as well as overall is also a possibility)

 

Mod Cards just require you to have the mod at the level you require. Nothing else is needed. Are there optimal ways of utilizing mods (Like putting on Serration before Hellfire)? Yes. Is that the same as being literally forced down a path a la Skill Tree? No.

 

Skill Trees also allow the possiblities of balancing out bonuses rather than having to try and deal with all potential combinations...

 

For example a final tier for Rifle skill tree could include an option between Serration for up to 100% damage raw damage increase, Split Chamber for 90% multishot chance (Averages out to being +90% damage and some additional status chance/crit opportunities) and Heavy Caliber for 200% raw damage increase and a large accuracy downgrade. Something relatively balanced with no clear winners (Well... Heavy Caliber would likely be the obvious choice for high accuracy weapons, unless it's debuff was large enough)

 

If the option is limited, to the point where you can only take one of them or only had enough points to fully max out one (Allowing for spread of points to customize and get an average of 2-3 of them) then it's significantly different to Mod Cards where there's no limitation around getting all 3 fully maxed out on any weapon (Outside mod space, which is improved via polarities)

 

A skill tree also allows maximum potential to be achieved whilst incorporating the utility mods on the path - Possible by making tiers have themes, such as having a tree for the resistances for warframes giving a choice between Diamond Skin, Flame Repellent etc Without competing for space with the really important mods that mod cards freedom gives.

 

The only time skill trees and mod cards are identical is if skill trees allowed enough freedom to pick up everything you currently have access to via mod cards - I.E. A really poor skill tree.

 

That said, I don't agree that moving from mod cards to purely skill tree's is a good idea (Mod Cards has a lot of potential, especially in the form of combinations of mods to produce new effects like how elements combine - Mod Cards strength is that they can be positioned in specific ways, a strength that hasn't been capitalized on enough in my opinion) - Having some skill trees and some mod cards as a hybrid system would work wonders - Allowing progression through a tree with various choices to make, while allowing freedom and positioning of mod cards to have an impact.

 

But flat out saying "Mod Cards and Skill Trees are ultimately the same thing" is just wrong.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Tarille

[DBugII]

intruder

pls no

 

 

A skilltree would be a step backwards and if it were to replace the mod system, it would cut the game's content by over half. Implementing a skilltree to replace a smaller, existing system would work fine. However, if we ever do get one, it'll not be large or in-depth enough to replace the current mod system.

 

The difference between the 2 systems is as clear as day and night.

Edited July 6, 2014 by DBugII