Of Mods And Steve

[MXultra]

Just watched the stream, had a couple observations about an interaction at around 43mins.

 

The Lotus read a sharply worded and heavily opinionated question about the mod system. I think Steve reacted to the insulting aspect of the question but missed the core that I think a lot of us would have liked to have heard.

 

Steve disagreed with the statement that "the mod system nullifies all skill in the game". When phrased like that, it's not hard to disagree. But remember when players were calling for the removal of damage mods? This is what they were talking about:

 

1. If your unmodded gun does 100 damage per hit, equipping Max Serration will have you doing 265 damage per hit.

 

2. Additionally, equipping Max Heavy Caliber will have you doing 430 damage per hit with an accuracy decrease that is only a minor hinderance beyond mid range on certain guns. I sometimes use a rank 4 or 8 Heavy Cal to make the inaccuracy even less of an issue and save mod points.

 

3. Furthermore, equipping Max Split Chamber will have you doing 2X damage, 2X proc chance, and 2X crit chance 90% of the time.

 

(1, 2, 3 are why the first three polarities I put on a gun are Vs)

 

4. From there, crit guns get crit builds, elemental guns get elemental builds. And with your last couple slots you boost fire rate, slash/puncture/impact, or add punch-through.

 

So when they say that "the mod system nullifies all skill in the game", they mean that apart from Heavy Caliber's accuracy loss and Punch-Through, all you are really doing is raising DPS in ways that don't affect how you use the weapon. And if you put that unmodded gun doing 100 damage per hit in the hands of a pro, and the ~7000DPS corrosive/blast, multishot, with 102% crit chance and 6x crit dmg, and 175% refire rate in the hands of a novice... well... there just isn't really a way for the pro to keep up. And in that way, skill does kind of go out the window.

 

As Scott said, people may go back and forth in the forums about what the *BEST* build is, but that doesn't stop the same 6 mods from appearing across all the builds. And of the slots that people debate over, there are only 2 or 3 mods that they are considering.

 

All those "interesting" mods that keep getting added, keep getting ignored because of "Power Ebb" (the opposite of Power Creep). Your new ideas just can't seem to break up the existing formula. That's why some players wanted you to free up a slot by taking out Serration. I'm not making any specific suggestion here, I just felt like Steve took the insult but didn't recognize the question.

 

In WF's defense, I don't agree with the statement that corrupt mods were "scraping the bottom of the barrel". A couple of them are rarely worth the penalty (accuracy and mag size), but the Corrupted Warframe mods are some of the most important mods for amplifying your build. Still waiting on a corrupted multishot, though...

 

Although, totally indepedently, I had been thinking the skills I've heard for the new frame do sound like scraping the bottom of the barrel. Trapping containers and zip lines? I'm glad to hear Steve say they have plenty more ideas and are just getting started.

[TrinityPrime]

I interpreted it as players surviving in highest tier missions should be more about mastery of the gameplay and less about 'mastery' of the mod loadouts.

[MXultra]

Yeah, that's just it, almost all of the mods stop being viable if you want to push further into DEF/SUR/INT/T4.

You have total mod customization if you hang out in Mercury and Venus EXT/CAP/RES/SAB missions.

 

Rebecca asked the question because it is a really important and valuable question. Steve didn't see it that way because he was reacting emotionally.

 

I hope Steve reads some of these threads (just saw innocent_flower raised a lot of the same points) and can respond to the question again.

Edited July 5, 2014 by MXultra

[Lokime]

Not to defend him, but since the beginning of the stream he seemed to be really &!$$ed, guess something happened to him.

 

 We all know that the mod system needs to be changed, there's a guy with incredible ideas in this post (where steve also apologized):

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/137875-a-complete-rework-of-the-foundation-of-warframe/

 

 

[kimahn]

most of the corrupted on weapons are a flat loss of dps, without gain in effectivemess either.

 

but that s not the problem that was raised there :

 

the mod system is not sustainable. you cannot produce ad infinitum, and passed a certain number of hours, dropping them is just useless. personally, i have 5k mods. the worst part of it, is when a new mod comes out, i can instantly max it. there is 0 progression.

 

you can use max 8*6 mods.

 

as materials, they should be a side feature, not the core of the reward system in warframe. aside from random stat gear, i dont see any way to handle exponential growth and reward that stay desirable forever.

 

they cannot you the horrible solution they found on materials : the timer. yes, argon works and forces us to farm. but it's aggravating the syndrome of burnout, and in the meantime you farmed an argon, you probably farmed every other resource you need to craft a weapon, rendering our stocks totally useless.

 

at least, we all agreed it cannot stay like that forever. it's a first step. i just hope the response to this problem will not come too late.

[SirSlayer]

What we need most is diversity not more number punching. Read, more challenging enemys/AI not just more health/damage.

 

Maybe they should allowe 100%+ of proc chance and hand out double/triple effects.

[Mak_Gohae]

 

So when they say that "the mod system nullifies all skill in the game", they mean that apart from Heavy Caliber's accuracy loss and Punch-Through, all you are really doing is raising DPS in ways that don't affect how you use the weapon. And if you put that unmodded gun doing 100 damage per hit in the hands of a pro, and the ~7000DPS corrosive/blast, multishot, with 102% crit chance and 6x crit dmg, and 175% refire rate in the hands of a novice... well... there just isn't really a way for the pro to keep up. And in that way, skill does kind of go out the window.

 

 

 

Keep up with what? Damage? Damage is not a skill.

You think a new player is going to do better than a veteran player if they both get dump in a T3 mission?

Hell to the nizzo.

A new player may survive longer than he naturally wold but he is not going to be better than a veteran at completing the missions.

 

Proof of this was the first Alad V infested ship missions. Everyone that ran them the first few times ended up being downed several times because they were not used to the new challenge. Just because you have the ability to put out X amount of damage it doesnt mean that you will succeed at it.

[MrNonApplicable]

Just watched the stream, had a couple observations about an interaction at around 43mins.

 

The Lotus read a sharply worded and heavily opinionated question about the mod system. I think Steve reacted to the insulting aspect of the question but missed the core that I think a lot of us would have liked to have heard.

 

Steve disagreed with the statement that "the mod system nullifies all skill in the game". When phrased like that, it's not hard to disagree. But remember when players were calling for the removal of damage mods? This is what they were talking about:

 

1. If your unmodded gun does 100 damage per hit, equipping Max Serration will have you doing 265 damage per hit.

 

2. Additionally, equipping Max Heavy Caliber will have you doing 430 damage per hit with an accuracy decrease that is only a minor hinderance beyond mid range on certain guns. I sometimes use a rank 4 or 8 Heavy Cal to make the inaccuracy even less of an issue and save mod points.

 

3. Furthermore, equipping Max Split Chamber will have you doing 2X damage, 2X proc chance, and 2X crit chance 90% of the time.

 

(1, 2, 3 are why the first three polarities I put on a gun are Vs)

 

4. From there, crit guns get crit builds, elemental guns get elemental builds. And with your last couple slots you boost fire rate, slash/puncture/impact, or add punch-through.

 

So when they say that "the mod system nullifies all skill in the game", they mean that apart from Heavy Caliber's accuracy loss and Punch-Through, all you are really doing is raising DPS in ways that don't affect how you use the weapon. And if you put that unmodded gun doing 100 damage per hit in the hands of a pro, and the ~7000DPS corrosive/blast, multishot, with 102% crit chance and 6x crit dmg, and 175% refire rate in the hands of a novice... well... there just isn't really a way for the pro to keep up. And in that way, skill does kind of go out the window.

 

As Scott said, people may go back and forth in the forums about what the *BEST* build is, but that doesn't stop the same 6 mods from appearing across all the builds. And of the slots that people debate over, there are only 2 or 3 mods that they are considering.

 

All those "interesting" mods that keep getting added, keep getting ignored because of "Power Ebb" (the opposite of Power Creep). Your new ideas just can't seem to break up the existing formula. That's why some players wanted you to free up a slot by taking out Serration. I'm not making any specific suggestion here, I just felt like Steve took the insult but didn't recognize the question.

 

In WF's defense, I don't agree with the statement that corrupt mods were "scraping the bottom of the barrel". A couple of them are rarely worth the penalty (accuracy and mag size), but the Corrupted Warframe mods are some of the most important mods for amplifying your build. Still waiting on a corrupted multishot, though...

 

Although, totally indepedently, I had been thinking the skills I've heard for the new frame do sound like scraping the bottom of the barrel. Trapping containers and zip lines? I'm glad to hear Steve say they have plenty more ideas and are just getting started.

It's good that people are discussing this, I cringed through most of Steve's reply because it felt like his personal attachment was getting in the way of progress.

I hope this gets noticed.

[MXultra]

Keep up with what? Damage? Damage is not a skill.

 

I think you misunderstood or are intentionally taking things out of context

 

If a low-skill player went into T4 with a maxed out Boltor Prime, yeah, they'd probably do better than a pro with an unranked Braton.

 

The point is not that there is no skill requirement for the low-skilled player to survive, the point is that the pro player wouldn't be able to do damage.

 

It's because of that, that damage mods, elemental damage mods, and crit mods rule the day. You're foolish not to use them.

[SilverHazzes]

I think you people are forgetting about Steve talking about improving the mod system and introducing another drawbacks that aren't mods eating huge mod capacity and get more options. He said they got lots of ideas in that and they have to look into it. Instead of missunderstanding anyones words keep giving feedback about mods and the current system, being polite of course and keeping in mind this is still in construction so there's lots of things to ad and fix.I am not disagreing with you, just saying we have to give feedback and let them work the game, something that's not really easy.

[Viverim]

Here is my problem with this issue.  IF increasing damage (like serration) is a *required* mod (not saying it's not), then making multi-tiers of Serration is not the solution.  Yes, people have put lots of time and resources into their Serrations (I have as well).  Yes, changing things would likely create angst and conflict.  However, if Serration is so important that it is a *must have*, the it should be a part of the gun's natural scaling process.  Instead of damage remaining static from level 1-30, it should slowly increase across that progression, and Serration (and it's counterparts) should be removed.

 

I highly doubt that this will happen.

 

Additionally, I thin the entire "increase damage by X%" is part of what makes the system highly imbalanced.  I wouldn't have made elemental mods %damage increases.  I would have tied them to other effects.  Perhaps "Adds Toxic damage and increases Status by X%", or "Adds Heat damage and increases magazine size by X%"  This makes creating enemies a little easier, as damage can now be more predictable for the design team.  Right now, you can't tell if someone will have two or three mods giving them +200% damage or six mods giving them +460% damage, and if you plan enemies around the higher range, it just pushes everyone to put a certain mod build on all of their gear, much as we have now.

 

Edit:

 

I worded that badly above.  When I say "Add Toxic Damage" what I mean is add the Toxic element to damage, but not adding any level of damage to the weapon.  X% of the weapon's natural damage becomes Toxic, removing that damage from the weapon's other types (Slash, Impact, Puncture) in an even distribution.

 

Sorry for any confusion this may have caused.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Viverim

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

Well Steve did apologize...

[SirSlayer]

snip

You got that right. The current design philosophy revolves around adding higher numbers.

[Phatose]

Please don't characterize that particular interaction as being about a criticism of the mod system.  That wasn't a sharply worded question about the mod system - it was the introduction from a megathread that the community had specifically asked them to address.  A megathread that rapidly segues away from a criticism and right into a fan-concept redesign of the entire game.

[Mak_Gohae]

I think you misunderstood or are intentionally taking things out of context

 

If a low-skill player went into T4 with a maxed out Boltor Prime, yeah, they'd probably do better than a pro with an unranked Braton.

 

The point is not that there is no skill requirement for the low-skilled player to survive, the point is that the pro player wouldn't be able to do damage.

 

It's because of that, that damage mods, elemental damage mods, and crit mods rule the day. You're foolish not to use them.

 

If by "do better" you mean put out more damage then yes, of course, he will because he has the better equipment. And this is happens in all games that have equipment.

 

But survival? Hell, no. A novice player doesnt know the attack patterns on the enemy, a novice player doesnt know what to attack first, a new player wont know how to use the surrounding to help him. He will survive longer than he would with sucky weapons but that means little. A novice player does not all of a sudden become a super pro at Warframe simply because of weapons. No way.

[MXultra]

Please don't characterize that particular interaction as being about a criticism of the mod system.  That wasn't a sharply worded question about the mod system - it was the introduction from a megathread that the community had specifically asked them to address.  A megathread that rapidly segues away from a criticism and right into a fan-concept redesign of the entire game.

 

Not everyone that watched the stream has read the thread. I have, but I was pointing out that the part Rebecca read had some comments in it that you could see Steve balk at. So that was the interaction. Scott tried to brush things off saying "He's PMed me before and I've answered him...". With Steve's apology, it has broadened to indicate that they are going to look at things.

 

 

If by "do better" you mean put out more damage then yes, of course, he will because he has the better equipment. And this is happens in all games that have equipment.

 

Again, it's not that good gear turns a novice into a pro, it's that bad gear turns a pro into a novice against high level enemies. Try taking an unranked Braton into T4. It won't matter how pro you are, if you can't do damage, you can't win.

 

I can see the fanboy zeal in your eyes and I know you would help me take this to 3 or 4 pages if I had the time. For now, lets let others have a chance in the discussion.

Edited July 5, 2014 by MXultra

[Mak_Gohae]

 

Try taking an unranked Braton to T4. It doesn't matter how pro you are, if you can't do damage, you can't win.

 

I can see the fanboy zeal in your eyes and I know you would help me take this to 3 or 4 pages if I had the time. For now, lets let others have a chance in the discussion.

 

 

That is not what i am focusing on, what i am focusing on is your idea that a novice player, as you said, will miraculously know how to play the game at T4 simply because he has the mods to do damage. Sorry but in the words of Steve, that's BS. Better mods can give you a better cushion but they will not play the game for you.

[SirSlayer]

That is not what i am focusing on, what i am focusing on is your idea that a novice player, as you said, will miraculously know how to play the game at T4 simply because he has the mods to do damage. Sorry but in the words of Steve, that's BS. Better mods can give you a better cushion but they will not play the game for you.

In reverse, without better mods you can't play. So what's your point based on again?

[MXultra]

Mak_Gohae, what you're focusing on is something I never said. I've been telling you from my first reply that you misunderstood.

Edited July 5, 2014 by MXultra

[Marthrym]

If by "do better" you mean put out more damage then yes, of course, he will because he has the better equipment. And this is happens in all games that have equipment.

 

But survival? Hell, no. A novice player doesnt know the attack patterns on the enemy, a novice player doesnt know what to attack first, a new player wont know how to use the surrounding to help him. He will survive longer than he would with sucky weapons but that means little. A novice player does not all of a sudden become a super pro at Warframe simply because of weapons. No way.

A "noob" with A Boltor Prime will probably live longer. Why? Because he actually can kill stuff. It's that simple. And enemies have ONE pattern : come at you guns blazing. Or running away from you, yeah, so 2 "patterns". Like that's a lot to take in... The "noob" doesn't need to learn anything other than "point and shoot". And even a "noob" will have basic reflexes like not standing still in the middle of the room. There is a difference between "noob" and vegetable... don't tell me all "noobs" are that bad. I once was one, and still, I knew better than that.^^'  (Or am I too optimistic or something?^^')

 

The "pro" with the Braton can't kill anything because skill cannot change damage output. He might run and hide, but he will eventually get swarmed and used to mop the floor because enemies shrug off anything he throws at them without even slowing down.^^'

 

I think that's what MXultra meant. Unless I'm mistaken. Could be that too.^^'

[Hueminator]

Indication of skill here is that when your gun is not OP enough to 1 shot mob, then the skilled one are the one that hit the weak spot on enemies?

Edited July 5, 2014 by Hueminator

[MXultra]

A "noob" with A Boltor Prime will probably live longer. Why? Because he actually can kill stuff. It's that simple. And enemies have ONE pattern : come at you guns blazing. Or running away from you, yeah, so 2 "patterns". Like that's a lot to take in... The "noob" doesn't need to learn anything other than "point and shoot". And even a "noob" will have basic reflexes like not standing still in the middle of the room. There is a difference between "noob" and vegetable... don't tell me all "noobs" are that bad. I once was one, and still, I knew better than that.^^'  (Or am I too optimistic or something?^^')

 

The "pro" with the Braton can't kill anything because skill cannot change damage output. He might run and hide, but he will eventually get swarmed and used to mop the floor because enemies shrug off anything he throws at them without even slowing down.^^'

 

I think that's what MXultra meant. Unless I'm mistaken. Could be that too.^^'

 

You got it. Whether DEF or SUR, you eventually hit a point where you can give up on fire fights. For someone with good gear, that could be wave/minute 40-60. For someone with bad gear, it's when the round starts.

Edited July 5, 2014 by MXultra

[Mak_Gohae]

In reverse, without better mods you can't play. So what's your point based on again?

 

I never claimed the equipment is not needed... specially in a game about equipment.

The idea that a novice player with better weapons nullifies all skill is just no true. 

 

 

Mak_Gohae, what you're focusing on is something I never said. I've been telling you from my first reply that you misunderstood.

 

You did say it.

And if you put that unmodded gun doing 100 damage per hit in the hands of a pro, and the ~7000DPS corrosive/blast, multishot, with 102% crit chance and 6x crit dmg, and 175% refire rate in the hands of a novice... well... there just isn't really a way for the pro to keep up. And in that way, skill does kind of go out the window.

 

You point is, of course, focusing on the damage but you do end it with an assertion that mods in the hands of any person means that the game completely ceases to require any sort of skill to play. Which is not true in any way.  Like i mentionede earlier, the first Alad V infested missions had a lot of people being downed because they were not used to the gameplay... that right there shows that some skill in required. Sure, after a couple of runs you stop being downed but that's because you mastered the required style.

 

If am wrong in this can you please elaborate on what you meant when you said skill goes out the window simply because you have mods?

[Me.KayOh]

Keep up with what? Damage? Damage is not a skill.

You think a new player is going to do better than a veteran player if they both get dump in a T3 mission?

Hell to the nizzo.

A new player may survive longer than he naturally wold but he is not going to be better than a veteran at completing the missions.

 

Proof of this was the first Alad V infested ship missions. Everyone that ran them the first few times ended up being downed several times because they were not used to the new challenge. Just because you have the ability to put out X amount of damage it doesnt mean that you will succeed at it.

this is correct. besides, a novice wont find themselves with those unless they have a really close friend or two with extras.

 

i feel that people who say mods nullify warframe abilities just go to the void, stand around and shoot and kill everything. and then leave when they start to go down and enemy scaling becomes a problem...that's a preference. no one's telling you not to use radial disarm, chaos, blessing, vortex etc.

 

all these things help in the really end-game levels of t4 missions...or do people not play that far?

Edited July 5, 2014 by kalikilic

[MXultra]

You did say it.

 

You point is, of course, focusing on the damage but you do end it with an assertion that mods in the hands of any person means that the game completely ceases to require any sort of skill to play. Which is not true in any way.

 

You're delusional, kid. You're focusing on a strawman argument and can't tell the difference between it and reality.

 

I and several other have explained it a couple times. You continually ignore the parts where we point out that you CANNOT DO DAMAGE if you bring bad gear to the endgame.

 

A player can sit on the pod and defeat wave after wave *literally* single handedly if they have good gear. But if you can't do damage to high level enemies, all your parkour and "advanced knowledge" of enemy behavior isn't going to stop them from overwhelming the pod. How hard is that to understand?

 

In survival it's even more necessary because you need to keep up a certain rate of kills to keep the oxygen flowing. You can't survive on pods alone.

Edited July 5, 2014 by MXultra