Of Mods And Steve

[Marthrym]

this is correct. besides, a novice wont find themselves with those unless they have a really close friend or two with extras.

 

i feel that people who say mods nullify warframe abilities just go to the void, stand around and shoot and kill everything. and then leave when they start to go down and enemy scaling becomes a problem...that's a preference. no one's telling you not to use radial disarm, chaos, blessing, vortex etc.

 

all these things help in the really end-game levels of t4 missions...or do people not play that far?

Who said that "mods nullify Warframe abilities"? O_o

The argument was that "skill" (=/= frames abilities) cannot replace damage output/mods past a certain point. The scaling is far too bonkers. Nothing to do with Chaos/Vortex/etc...^^'

Still, it's true that one doesn't expect a "fresh" player to do T4 missions, that's for sure.^^

Edited July 5, 2014 by Marthrym

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

The issue is not with the mods.

 

What warframe needs is more weaponos with unique abilities and traits, things that do not ask for the basic damage boost and multishot combo.

 

The impediment to this is all the people that complain about a pistol not being as good as the brakk or not as good as the soma. People that complain about things not being hitscan and basically anything else that isn't just a brainless DPS-applier.

 

The flaw that is present in every attempt to fix the mod system is simple: there will always be a mathematically best build. As long as there is customization of any sort, people will figure out what is best. Removing serration as a "required" mod by nerfing it into uselessness or removing it from the game entirely will just have something take its place. Minmaxers will always find the best, and the solution to builds using the same mods is to create weapons that benefit from some of the others more than just stacking damage (and for players to get over themselves and do something other than the optimal build they find online instead of creating on their own).

[Viverim]

 

 

the first Alad V infested missions had a lot of people being downed because they were not used to the gameplay

I disagree with your assumption here.  I was downed quite a bit until I started taking OP weapon into the fight.  It had nothing to do with gameplay.  It had to do with the ridiculous level of damage scaling that the enemy units were given.

 

Carry on the discussion.

[Mak_Gohae]

I and several other have explained it a couple times. You continually ignore the parts where we point out that you CANNOT DO DAMAGE if you bring bad gear to the endgame.

 

Of course, in a game that has equipment you are not going to do damage in high level areas if you bring low level weapons.

This happens in pretty much every game that has levels and equipment. This is how games like this function.

 

A player can sit on the pod and defeat wave after wave *literally* single handedly if they have good gear. But if you can't do damage to high level enemies, all your parkour and "advanced knowledge" of enemy behavior isn't going to stop them from overwhelming the pod. How hard is that to understand?

 

In survival it's even more necessary because you need to keep up a certain rate of kills to keep the oxygen flowing. You can't survive on pods alone.

 

Now you switched your point from using NOVICE to just saying A PLAYER.

Of course A PLAYER, im guessing you mean on the same level of SKILL as the player with no mods, will do better if he has better equipment because that's the point of equipment games, get better equipment to face tougher enemies.

 

But simply putting on a mod does not mean all skill is gone. Like i mentioned before, you get a better cushion but it doesnt mean that this will cover everything. You folks seem to be translating DMG to skill which is not a an actual equivelant mix. Damage gives you the potential to kill faster, yes, but damage doesnt automatically make kill faster without the user using it properly.

[Viverim]

The issue is not with the mods.

 

What warframe needs is more weaponos with unique abilities and traits, things that do not ask for the basic damage boost and multishot combo.

 

The impediment to this is all the people that complain about a pistol not being as good as the brakk or not as good as the soma. People that complain about things not being hitscan and basically anything else that isn't just a brainless DPS-applier.

 

The flaw that is present in every attempt to fix the mod system is simple: there will always be a mathematically best build. As long as there is customization of any sort, people will figure out what is best. Removing serration as a "required" mod by nerfing it into uselessness or removing it from the game entirely will just have something take its place. Minmaxers will always find the best, and the solution to builds using the same mods is to create weapons that benefit from some of the others more than just stacking damage (and for players to get over themselves and do something other than the optimal build they find online instead of creating on their own).

On the flip side, the devs stated that they thought that Prosecutors were a "wonderful design" because they were invincible unless you had a certain mod type.  They implied that this helped to force people to spread their mods and use mods more "tactically",  but in fact all it did was punish the playerbase.

 

As I stated in another post, I think the entire concept of "adds X% to damage" is broken.  Weapons should scale in accordance with their level, and things like elemental mods should convert damage into elemental types, not add more and more damage.  Making your fire mod "Converts 40% damage to heat and adds +20% to Magazine size" would be more interesting, to me, than "Adds 90% heat damage" and it becomes easier for the design team to create new enemies and balance old enemies without having the dreaded "Power Creep" looming over every decision.

 

 

But that's just my outlook on things, and as it would require a fundamental change in a lot of the weapons, I don't see it ever happening.

[MXultra]

Of course, in a game that has equipment you are not going to do damage in high level areas if you bring low level weapons.

This happens in pretty much every game that has levels and equipment. This is how games like this function.

 

 

 

Now you switched your point from using NOVICE to just saying A PLAYER.

Of course A PLAYER, im guessing you mean on the same level of SKILL as the player with no mods, will do better if he has better equipment because that's the point of equipment games, get better equipment to face tougher enemies.

 

But simply putting on a mod does not mean all skill is gone. Like i mentioned before, you get a better cushion but it doesnt mean that this will cover everything. You folks seem to be translating DMG to skill which is not a an actual equivelant mix. Damage gives you the potential to kill faster, yes, but damage doesnt automatically make kill faster without the user using it properly.

I knew you were tripping out on that word. I still could have written NOVICE and it would be equally true. How skilled is it to aim and shoot with one hand?

 

You are STILL lying to yourself. NO ONE said mods = no skill or dmg = skill. That's what you'd like to believe because you can't argue against the actual point.

 

The flaw that is present in every attempt to fix the mod system is simple: there will always be a mathematically best build. As long as there is customization of any sort, people will figure out what is best. Removing serration as a "required" mod by nerfing it into uselessness or removing it from the game entirely will just have something take its place. Minmaxers will always find the best, and the solution to builds using the same mods is to create weapons that benefit from some of the others more than just stacking damage (and for players to get over themselves and do something other than the optimal build they find online instead of creating on their own).

 

If you ever played Hitman: Blood Money they had a weapon modding system for guns that you start with. By the end of it, you could mod your starting pistol into a sniper rifle (by adding a scope, accuracy mods, high caliber rounds) or dual silenced micro uzis (get two of them, add rapid fire, silencers, and long magazine). I like that kind of modding and would like to see more like it in WF but all they really have in that department is the building the elemental against the enemy type you're fighting. Which doesn't affect how the weapon fires :/

Edited July 6, 2014 by MXultra

[Mak_Gohae]

I knew you were tripping out on that word. I still could have written NOVICE and it would be equally true. How skilled is it to aim and shoot with one hand?

 

 

Of course you should know i was tripping on that word because that's what i kept pointing at.

 

Oh boy, so now you do go back to using it... so i go back to what i said before.

 

And if are a very skilled person that came in and blew through that's nice but not everyone is that awesome.

Do you this same trouble with other games that do this same exact thing? Because this concept of better eq means an easier time is very old at this point. The reason people did VanCleef in WOW was for those blues and greens that you could keep for a long time because they were better than anything else.

 

You are STILL lying to yourself. NO ONE said mods = no skill or dmg = skill. That's what you'd like to believe because you can't argue against the actual point.

 

I asked before what you meant by this

 

And if you put that unmodded gun doing 100 damage per hit in the hands of a pro, and the ~7000DPS corrosive/blast, multishot, with 102% crit chance and 6x crit dmg, and 175% refire rate in the hands of a novice... well... there just isn't really a way for the pro to keep up. And in that way, skill does kind of go out the window.

 

Cause it does in that way sound like skill goes out the window when you have better weapons.

[Viverim]

I think the point that is trying to be made is that, as your weapons scale out of control, your level of required skill diminishes.  How much skill do you really need when you can lob a Penta round that does 6,000+ damage?  Even Eximus don't last long unless you are in some unGodly level of Defense or Survival.  Yes, skill is useful, but when you point to saying "won't know how to respond to enemies", you aren't talking skill, you're talking experience.  The most skillful person in the world will have a rough time if they don't know what the rules are, so that argument isn't really relative to the issue.

 

I also think pointing to having an unranked weapon in a high level area is also counter to the argument.  Mak has a point that, in an equipment based game, the game will scale at higher levels to require some degree of increase.  It's the nature of the system.  A level 5 sword in WoW won't do anything to a level 30 enemy, and you need upscaled weapons to continue playing.

 

I however, to say it again, think that using the mods as a means of accomplishing said scaling isn't a good idea.  Let weapon level do the damage scaling, and use the mods as adjustments on every other aspect of the weapon.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

On the flip side, the devs stated that they thought that Prosecutors were a "wonderful design" because they were invincible unless you had a certain mod type.  They implied that this helped to force people to spread their mods and use mods more "tactically",  but in fact all it did was punish the playerbase.

 

That's because the player base spent more time whining than they did just learning to hit them with a slash weapon, no mods required, or coordinating with their friends to put elements on secondaries. With valid solo and team options for taking them out, I found it difficult to take people complaining about prosecutors seriously.

 

 

 

I think the point that is trying to be made is that, as your weapons scale out of control, your level of required skill diminishes.

 

I agree, in a sense. The enemies also get more powerful and more numerous as you progress though. If you were always running against the same level enemy, this might be a more impactful criticism.

 

Admittedly, in WF, you can reach a point where you can handle just about anything the star chart can throw at you to mission completion and the real challenge only presents itself in modes with infinite scaling. I think this is a good thing. You've created your weapons and reclaimed that tenno power all the NPCs blather on about. I like to feel like I've made it. I think it's up to the player not to live their life at low levels and blow away low level mobs with end game gear though. I can't make people stop sabotaging their fun though, and I don't think altering the game will either.

 

I'm a big proponent of, if your gun is OP for where you're at, using something else that isn't. You know, those personal favorite weapons that people always say they wish they could use? I think they need to exercise the opportunities they're given to use them.

Edited July 6, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[Viverim]

That's because the player base spent more time whining than they did just learning to hit them with a slash weapon, no mods required, or coordinating with their friends to put elements on secondaries. With valid solo and team options for taking them out, I found it difficult to take people complaining about prosecutors seriously.

Not really wanting to start an argument (though I don't see how to avoid it), but if you think this is great game design then I question your concept of what a great game is.  To me (note the personal pronoun please), this isn't good design.  There should be a better way to try and encourage your playerbase than "Well, I don't like that, so here!  Have an invulnerable enemy who's weakness changes on a whim of the RNG gods!"

 

Check out the "Extra Credits" series on Youtube.  They have an excellent video on the difference between "challenging" and "punishing" design.

 

Edit:

 

Dad-gummed-it!  Did I go off topic?  Much apologies y'all.  Will try to keep my contributions on topic.  =(

Edited July 6, 2014 by Viverim

[MXultra]

Viverim, I agree with your idea for weapon scaling, but don't let Mak determine what you think is terms of the debate are; he's confused.

 

The argument isn't even about skill, that's just one way to illustrate the issue (and that's how it was worded in the livestream).

 

Get two teams of equally skilled players all using the same weapon, no abilities allowed. Have one build using the serration/heavy cal/split chamber + crit/elemental convention and the other one can do whatever they want except use serration/heavy cal/split chamber. Which one is going to last longer in survival?

 

I did not agree with how the question was phrased, but Mak has insisted on seeing it that way. My original quote says that "skill kind of goes out the window." but he translates that to an absolute "you do end it with an assertion that mods in the hands of any person means that the game completely ceases to require any sort of skill to play."

 

We've tried to explain it to him several times, but he responds with the same lack of comprehension each time.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Not really wanting to start an argument (though I don't see how to avoid it), but if you think this is great game design then I question your concept of what a great game is.  To me (note the personal pronoun please), this isn't good design.  There should be a better way to try and encourage your playerbase than "Well, I don't like that, so here!  Have an invulnerable enemy who's weakness changes on a whim of the RNG gods!"

 

Check out the "Extra Credits" series on Youtube.  They have an excellent video on the difference between "challenging" and "punishing" design.

 

Edit:

 

Dad-gummed-it!  Did I go off topic?  Much apologies y'all.  Will try to keep my contributions on topic.  =(

 

If the players are using the same mods and are unhappy about it, they must be given a reason to use different ones. Enemies that require specific elements (when players can carry different combos quite easily) sits just fine with me. There are several three-element combos that work well against the grineer (Corrosive, Radiation, or Viral plus a single non-conflicting element) and can handle prosecutors weaknesses. Two players can easily cover those. I call that a valid way to get more thought put into builds. I think that's excellent design, as long as it's implemented later, when players actually have those mods to use. By Ceres, they probably do, at least enough to work with somebody. I don't think there should be an abundance of enemies like this, but a limited set like Prosecutors is fine and it's more engaging than toxin damage through shields is ever going to be.

Edited July 6, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[5Billion]

-snip-

I agree completely with you, and it's what i've been telling people. The basics of modding in Warframe...

Serration.

Heavy.

Split.

Done.

 

For warframes it's the same kinda thing...

Max abilities. 

Max Redirect.

Intensify, Continuity, Stretch.

A corrupted mod if it's negative doesn't affect the frame.

Done.

I'm out.

[Viverim]

If the players are using the same mods and are unhappy about it, they must be given a reason to use different ones. Enemies that require specific elements (when players can carry different combos quite easily) sits just fine with me. There are several three-element combos that work well against the grineer (Corrosive, Radiation, or Viral plus a single non-conflicting element) and can handle prosecutors weaknesses. Two players can easily cover those. I call that a valid way to get more thought put into builds. I think that's excellent design, as long as it's implemented later, when players actually have those mods to use. By Ceres, they probably do, at least enough to work with somebody. I don't think there should be an abundance of enemies like this, but a limited set like Prosecutors is fine and it's more engaging than toxin damage through shields is ever going to be.

The players aren't the ones unhappy.  The Design team was.  Giving reasons is great.  I totally agree.  HOWEVER, bashing your players with a baseball bat isn't "giving reasons".  Giving reasons is making incentives to do so, making the player feel like max damage isn't the optimal choice anymore.  Taking away choice does not offer the illusion of choice, and that's bad.  Can it be worked around, assuming you have the proper mods? sure.  You, however, assume that the proper mods will be available.  I still have no toxic mod for my secondary, and I only have Heat for my melee because of this last event.  IN a random game environment, you must always assume that a random drop won't be available.  If you do, you're making a flawed design.

 

This is one of the ways the current Mod set-up can be way too complicated (see how i guided this back on topic?  WooHoo!).  And if a defense mod and/or an offense mod is required to play, then it's something better dealt with as part of the core mechanic of leveling. 

 

I have a great deal of respect for what the Devs have accomplished, believe it or not.  But that doesn't mean that I support every decision that they have made. 

 

And DON'T get me started on Toxic damage.  That broken mess is a WHOLE other topic of discussion...

[MXultra]

I'm just gonna say it:

 

CONVERT SERRATION INTO CORRUPT MULTISHOT MODS WITH ACCURACY LOSS AS THE PENALTY.

 

that way it's still a great mod for boosting damage+crit+proc BUT combining it with Heavy Cal would prove too inaccurate beyond specialized builds for certain weapons (quadruple shot penta!? hubba hubba)

[Mak_Gohae]

Viverim, I agree with your idea for weapon scaling, but don't let Mak determine what you think is terms of the debate are; he's confused.

 

The argument isn't even about skill, that's just one way to illustrate the issue (and that's how it was worded in the livestream).

 

Get two teams of equally skilled players all using the same weapon, no abilities allowed. Have one build using the serration/heavy cal/split chamber + crit/elemental convention and the other one can do whatever they want except use serration/heavy cal/split chamber. Which one is going to last longer in survival?

 

I did not agree with how the question was phrased, but Mak has insisted on seeing it that way. My original quote says that "skill kind of goes out the window." but he translates that to an absolute "you do end it with an assertion that mods in the hands of any person means that the game completely ceases to require any sort of skill to play."

 

We've tried to explain it to him several times, but he responds with the same lack of comprehension each time.

 

Im not confused, you decided to use a novice in your example then you decide to back off then come back on it. Using standard players vs novice does change what you say.

 

BTW, i do agree with the concept that two teams have a chance at performing differently if one is equipped better because this is common sense when we are talking about equipment games. So you are not actually making any sort of point with this statement you are just making an observation. Unless you are trying to say that you want to move away from that and have everyone on the same plane.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Mak_Gohae

[Nagisawa]

You're delusional, kid. You're focusing on a strawman argument and can't tell the difference between it and reality.

 

Please do not argue with him.  As you see, he always pulls strawman arguments and tries to beat the poster to death with them.  I personally believe he wants Warframe to die.  Do not let him win.  Keep to your argument, but keep an open mind to other's solutions and potential issues.

 

You are correct in claiming that this game has no skill and that Damage Per Second is the rule to follow.  I also agree that Tiered damage mods is not the right choice to make, as all it does is expand the problem.

[MXultra]

Nagisawa, let me try one more time! If this doesn't work I quit.

 

 

BTW, i do agree with the concept that two teams have a chance at performing differently if one is equipped better because this is common sense when we are talking about equipment games.

 

In the first post, my response to the idea that the mod system "nulifies all skill" was "When phrased like that, it's not hard to disagree." I'm saying I don't agree with taking it to that extreme. However, I stand by my words that "skill KIND OF goes out the window".

OK. So, you acknowledge that a PRO team with good gear will get further than a PRO team with bad gear. This is common sense.

 

But why did the team with bad gear lose? Because they stopped being able to kill the enemies fast enough and were subsequently overwhelmed/ ran out of oxygen/ pod was destroyed. Any pro understands the concept of bullet efficiency and that if you can't do enough damage, you will have to use multiple clips to bring down one enemy, and ultimately run out of ammo. So in DEF/SUR/INT modes DPS = THE ABILITY TO SURVIVE LONGER.

 

*FINISH HIM*

 

Since DPS = YOUR SURVIVAL, you must equip Serration, Heavy Cal, Split Chamber and then a crit/elemental build. It doesn't matter how pro you are, if you don't use the correct mods, you will stop being VIABLE BEFORE the difficulty reaches the point that a NOOB with THE RIGHT GEAR would LOSE!

[Mak_Gohae]

Nagisawa, let me try one more time! If this doesn't work I quit.

 

 

 

In the first post, my response to the idea that the mod system "nulifies all skill" was "When phrased like that, it's not hard to disagree." I'm saying I don't agree with taking it to that extreme. However, I stand by my words that "skill KIND OF goes out the window".

OK. So, you acknowledge that a PRO team with good gear will get further than a PRO team with bad gear. This is common sense.

But why did the team with bad gear lose? Because they stopped being able to kill the enemies fast enough and were subsequently overwhelmed/ ran out of oxygen/ pod was destroyed. Any pro understands the concept of bullet efficiency and that if you can't do enough damage, you will have to use multiple clips to bring down one enemy, and ultimately run out of ammo. So in DEF/SUR/INT modes DPS = THE ABILITY TO SURVIVE LONGER.

 

*FINISH HIM*

 

What words are you standing by this post? Cause you switch from PLAYER to NOVICE from post to post which does change your argument. I guess ill go with PLAYER.

 

Yes,a better equipped team has a better CHANCE then a lesser equip teams but since we are not going to use the NOVICE as an example we are not going to use the hurr durr T4 with no mods idea either. A team will lesser mods, aka not maxed, can still perform as good as the max team if there is skill involved. The lesser team can have better strategies, better team work to bring the results up. There's a lot of variations to this discussions that can bring different results.

 

All things being equal, yes, the better equip team will likely do better but to do better you have to perform. Better mods do not magically have you killing things better.

 

Since DPS = YOUR SURVIVAL, you must equip Serration, Heavy Cal, Split Chamber and then a crit/elemental build. It doesn't matter how pro you are, if you don't use the correct mods, you will stop being VIABLE BEFORE the difficulty reaches the point that a NOOB with THE RIGHT GEAR would LOSE!

 

Right.... but what's you point?

Again..... this is the norm for equipment games. Is there an equipment game with levels where you do not need better equipment as you go to battle higher and higher enemies? Like i said in the post you quoted, is your point that you dont want equipment? That you want this game to play like the campaign mode of other shooters? You said earlier that you want Serration with some drawbacks, that's not really going to solve the issue you bring up. People are, of course, going to mod up to cover the drawbacks.

 

And i think a noob would end up going first because... they are noobs. Again, thinking that right gear miraculously makes you good is not a concept that would actually work in any sort of practice. If we could actually do this i would actually try it because im sure this is just not going to happen.

[Marthrym]

Nagisawa, let me try one more time! If this doesn't work I quit.

 

 

 

In the first post, my response to the idea that the mod system "nulifies all skill" was "When phrased like that, it's not hard to disagree." I'm saying I don't agree with taking it to that extreme. However, I stand by my words that "skill KIND OF goes out the window".

OK. So, you acknowledge that a PRO team with good gear will get further than a PRO team with bad gear. This is common sense.

 

But why did the team with bad gear lose? Because they stopped being able to kill the enemies fast enough and were subsequently overwhelmed/ ran out of oxygen/ pod was destroyed. Any pro understands the concept of bullet efficiency and that if you can't do enough damage, you will have to use multiple clips to bring down one enemy, and ultimately run out of ammo. So in DEF/SUR/INT modes DPS = THE ABILITY TO SURVIVE LONGER.

 

*FINISH HIM*

 

Since DPS = YOUR SURVIVAL, you must equip Serration, Heavy Cal, Split Chamber and then a crit/elemental build. It doesn't matter how pro you are, if you don't use the correct mods, you will stop being VIABLE BEFORE the difficulty reaches the point that a NOOB with THE RIGHT GEAR would LOSE!

 

I think it's pointless man. You will get the same kind of answer you did before, "you change "N" word every time to conveniently make your point" blahblahblah, when what you're doing is really only trying to show that even by tackling the issue from a different angle, the results/conclusion take the same direction.^^'

 

Inb4 I get bashed because I share your opinion on the matter...^^

[Marthrym]

What words are you standing by this post? Cause you switch from PLAYER to NOVICE from post to post which does change your argument. I guess ill go with PLAYER.

 

Yes,a better equipped team has a better CHANCE then a lesser equip teams but since we are not going to use the NOVICE as an example we are not going to use the hurr durr T4 with no mods idea either. A team will lesser mods, aka not maxed, can still perform as good as the max team if there is skill involved. The lesser team can have better strategies, better team work to bring the results up. There's a lot of variations to this discussions that can bring different results.

 

Oh look! I was right! Not sure if I should be happy about it though...

 

 

 

All things being equal, yes, the better equip team will likely do better but to do better you have to perform. Better mods do not magically have you killing things better.

 

Agree to disagree. Again. A "noob" with a nuke will do better than a "pro" with a toothpick. Seriously. Noob=/="can't even point and shoot" you know...^^'

 

 

And i think a noob would end up going first because... they are noobs. Again, thinking that right gear miraculously makes you good is not a concept that would actually work in any sort of practice. If we could actually do this i would actually try it because im sure this is just not going to happen.

Ok, now I see where the heart of the problem lies. You really do think "noob = brain dead" apparently...^^'

 

 

Right.... but what's you point?

 

*facepalm*

I quit.

[Davoodoo]

I see that you havent learned yet, so i will just give you an advice, dont argue with mak, this guy will just ignore all arguments or turn them over just to fit his vision of reality.

[MXultra]

Sorry, Mak... I'm not abandoning you... but I have to move on with my life... :(

[Thaumatos]

If by "do better" you mean put out more damage then yes, of course, he will because he has the better equipment. And this is happens in all games that have equipment.

 

But survival? Hell, no. A novice player doesnt know the attack patterns on the enemy, a novice player doesnt know what to attack first, a new player wont know how to use the surrounding to help him. He will survive longer than he would with sucky weapons but that means little. A novice player does not all of a sudden become a super pro at Warframe simply because of weapons. No way.

*Ahem* ... What game are you playing exactly?  You didn't describe Warframe.

 

Warframe AI Attack Patterns: Run, Shoot, Run, Shoot, Run, Shoot, Run, Shoot.  

 

Using Warframe's Surroundings: Hide behind wall?  Check.

 

What to attack first: The enemy dealing damage to you.  If there isn't any, just shoot whatever.

 

These are pretty rudimentary concepts that you'd have to be either brain-dead or too young to be at a keyboard to not figure out.  Warframe is all about getting the biggest baddest gun and wasting the entire room.  That's why players are feeling drained by the mod system.  It's supposed to bring variety to that monotony, but it just adds to it.

 

As for survival, the hardest part is understanding the concept of "life support" and how to keep it going.  The faster you kill, the more LS drops you're likely to get.  Which means the pro with a junk weapon is less likely to 'survive'.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

The players aren't the ones unhappy.  The Design team was.  Giving reasons is great.  I totally agree.  HOWEVER, bashing your players with a baseball bat isn't "giving reasons".  Giving reasons is making incentives to do so, making the player feel like max damage isn't the optimal choice anymore.  Taking away choice does not offer the illusion of choice, and that's bad.  Can it be worked around, assuming you have the proper mods? sure.  You, however, assume that the proper mods will be available.  I still have no toxic mod for my secondary, and I only have Heat for my melee because of this last event.  IN a random game environment, you must always assume that a random drop won't be available.  If you do, you're making a flawed design.

 

This is one of the ways the current Mod set-up can be way too complicated (see how i guided this back on topic?  WooHoo!).  And if a defense mod and/or an offense mod is required to play, then it's something better dealt with as part of the core mechanic of leveling. 

 

I have a great deal of respect for what the Devs have accomplished, believe it or not.  But that doesn't mean that I support every decision that they have made. 

 

And DON'T get me started on Toxic damage.  That broken mess is a WHOLE other topic of discussion...

 

Players were being punshed and "bashed with a baseball bat". Right. I'm going to ignore that for being dramatic.

 

The illusion of choice is never the way to go. Real choice is. The choice between elemental guns or a non-elemental melee weapon to take down prosecutors is a real choice. Teaming up and coordinating the elements carried based on what mods you have is a real choice and involves teamwork. WF seems to have no shortage of players that refuse to use anything but the best set of weapons and mods, claiming that they have no choices, but they do and they just refuse to exercise it. Requiring that they change up their build and think even a little bit is a good thing. A limited set of options that actually make a difference is hugely superior to meaningless freedom. For choice to be important, some choices need to be wrong.

 

Following the normal progression of the game, you will have had the opportunity to acquire both the mods you claim not to have. Pathogen rounds comes from anti-moas on Jupiter, and molten impact from Kela on Sedna. Both of those areas are lower level and unlocked much sooner than Ceres. While I acknowledge the possibility that the RNG might have been particularly unkind to you, you were not lacking an opportunity to get those mods and both opportunities came well before Ceres provided you weren't just getting taxied around. I'm underlining this because you seemed to ignore it: You don't need any elemental mods to kill prosecutors. Unless you're going to tell me you also didn't have a slash melee weapon, you were perfectly capable of killing them. Even those opportunities are not required to be successful. For all players whined about it, they were actually given a decent set of options.

 

It stands, though, that almost all mods are acquired through drops. If you assume that all mods are unavailable, as you suggest they must, then no choice connected to them can ever carry any weight. If you find any aspect of this mod system too complicated, you've been playing some exceptionally simplistic games. The most complicated part of it is elemental combos, and even that is easy to experiment with due to the fluid nature of the mod system itself. Tying some aspects into levelling only restricts players ability to manipulate that attribute. I'd rather have the option. I don't want to be required to bring an OP weapon to help a lower leveled friend just because it's impossible for me to swap out serration mods.