Mod System Feedback

[SilverHazzes]

The reason of starting this topic is to summarize the in-going topics about the mod system specially in weapons.That´s what was said and what I can tell, if you got any serious suggestion it can be added to the list:

 

-The weapon mod system doesn´t leave space for creativity.

-The criteria for building a weapon is the faction you are against and not a playstyle, most of the time your taste in weaponery it´s your playstyle more than modding.

-IMPORTANT: There´s two kinds of skill:

 *Skill as user of a weapon, knowing were to place shots, great aiming, speed shooting and switching targets, ammo managing, knowing that you have to reload when no enemies in a period of time so you get your weapon prepared, knowing wich combo to use and things like that.

 *Skill to mod and personalize a weapon or change, that´s what you have in warframes but not so much in weapons, then let´s keep explaining the experience.

 

-This happens most of the time, damage vs utility mods: at the end of the day most players will choose the biggest damage output and remove the utility mods so the weapons can stand a chance in T4 missions or high level solar system defense and survival and if there is room for a utility mod it will only be one slot. This makes all the builds equal or similar to each other so being more skilled means you have the damage mods maxed and maybe puts the right utility mod in that last slot.

 

-The variety of mods in the warframes makes viable to build for different playstyles, you can even build a bleedout strategy with provoked and undying will if you want.

 

-More nightmare and corrupted mods are needed to make variety.

 

-There must be some way to get the damage output of the weapon covered getting also room for playstyles, creativity and variety for builds.

 

-To help playstyle more mods like charged chamber and such are needed so players can build around different concepts of using a weapon.

 

-Maybe modding weapons has to be closer to the way of modding warframes, making more complex the system and forcing players to think about how they play and what they can build.

 

-Steve said in the last livestream that they had more ideas and the only problem was getting them in-game faster so think about this like a feedback about the current system. If DE implemented corrupted and nightmare mods, melee 2.0 and more I wouldn´t understimate their capabilities to hotfix and fix this.

 

-DE gave us hundreds or thousands of hours of fun and a good player experience when facing challenges with friends. In top of that they try to fix and solve issues the faster they can so please be kind in this topic and I thank would thank very much if you post your experience and politely discuss about the mod system.

 

Peace 

 

 

[Naqel]

Drop it. It's not worth your effort.

 

They dismissed any criticism of their flawed system live and on camera.

They basically went out and openly stated that they do not plan to remove their heads from between their butt-cheeks, even when there's an outcry for it.

At this point, any feedback regarding the mod system is a waste of time.

[Calayne]

Drop it. It's not worth your effort.

 

They dismissed any criticism of their flawed system live and on camera.

They basically went out and openly stated that they do not plan to remove their heads from between their butt-cheeks, even when there's an outcry for it.

At this point, any feedback regarding the mod system is a waste of time.

Negative response, in a very negative way, no offense to my fellow Tenno.

"They didn't like the idea, so it doesn't matter what you say", is his argument. "It doesn't matter". "They won't listen".

Well, allow me to say this: it DOES matter, because they DO listen, and we shouldn't let one minor outburst against Zamboni's idea stop us from pursuing the core idea which is right.

Is Zamboni's system attractive? Certainly is to me. Does that mean DE intends to let the mod system stay as it is? Surely not. We have a long ways to go, and DE knows it. Keep the feedback coming.

For the love of Warframe, someone's gotta stand and fight for what they believe in. Don't let minor setbacks keep you down and out. If you love the game, if you have ideas, keep it coming. Do us all Tenno a favor, by contributing with your personal yhoughts.

You never know which dev might be listening.

[Davoodoo]

Modding a weapon doesnt require any thinking, you go to forums or ingame chat and ask about top dps build, at least half of ppl know it.

 

Even if you had to think it yourself, its not rocket science. 165%x90%+90%+90%+90%=high dps obviously

 

System will never have a place for creativity for 1 reason.

Without mods your weapon dmg sux, so you will mod for top dmg, you cant have creativity if mods raise dps of your guns 50 times. Without it you gimp yourself.

[SilverHazzes]

Modding a weapon doesnt require any thinking, you go to forums or ingame chat and ask about top dps build, at least half of ppl know it.

 

Even if you had to think it yourself, its not rocket science. 165%x90%+90%+90%+90%=high dps obviously

 

System will never have a place for creativity for 1 reason.

Without mods your weapon dmg sux, so you will mod for top dmg, you cant have creativity if mods raise dps of your guns 50 times. Without it you gimp yourself.

That´s one of the facts that we are talking about.

[Calayne]

Modding a weapon doesnt require any thinking, you go to forums or ingame chat and ask about top dps build, at least half of ppl know it.

 

Even if you had to think it yourself, its not rocket science. 165%x90%+90%+90%+90%=high dps obviously

 

System will never have a place for creativity for 1 reason.

Without mods your weapon dmg sux, so you will mod for top dmg, you cant have creativity if mods raise dps of your guns 50 times. Without it you gimp yourself.

 

Indeed! This is what's happening now. 

 

However, I don't think the developers intended for this to be the case. Perhaps now, the mods are skewed. But, to be fair, this is not the fault of the concept, which I think is not too bad; It's an issue of implementation. The way it's implemented, with everything utility eclipsed by damage mods and ways to do more damage, is the core issue. They realise this, I hope, and in time, perhaps it'll change, with the balancing of mods.

 

For Davoodoo's example, this is almost always certainly the case.

 

However, what if, perchance, the mods were rebalanced? What if ammo were more scarce, and you had to choose between very high damage, or additional ammo, if you're not such a terrific shot? Much more likely you'll bring Ammo drum or Ammo Mutation. And what if elemental mods now converts a percentage of your total base damage, rather than adding to it? Then stacking element upon element suddenly becomes less attractive, compared to the way it is now.

 

I have big hopes for the future, because Warframe has a lot of potential. To say the mod system is a waste of space is unjust, and unfair. It has the potential to be better. I still hope for more mods like the punch-through mods: Mods that change the way you play the game, or shoot your gun, in this case. What if you had a gun mod that allowed you to ricochet bullets? What if you had a gun mod that allows you to do additional small DoT damage, at the cost of slightly lowering your base damage? What if you had a mod that allows you to scatter your bullets, slightly increasing your damage, but making it harder to land headshots with both bullets, and reducing accuracy? 

 

The mod system is not the problem, though many problems it does have. But DE needs to fine-tune it, improve it, and ultimately, have it reach the potential it deserves. 

[DSpite]

Drop it. It's not worth your effort.

 

They dismissed any criticism of their flawed system live and on camera.

They basically went out and openly stated that they do not plan to remove their heads from between their butt-cheeks, even when there's an outcry for it.

At this point, any feedback regarding the mod system is a waste of time.

 

That is your opinion, not mine. I fail to understand what you want from a free to play system.

If the system is so flawed that it's making it "not fun" for you to play, don't let the door hit you on the way out. If you can have a strong opinion on the devs, ie the individuals whose baby this is, I can make opinions about you, and right now, you're being an &#!.

 

Do I think it could be better? Yes. Is it a game stopper? No.

[DSpite]

Modding a weapon doesnt require any thinking, you go to forums or ingame chat and ask about top dps build, at least half of ppl know it.

 

Even if you had to think it yourself, its not rocket science. 165%x90%+90%+90%+90%=high dps obviously

 

System will never have a place for creativity for 1 reason.

Without mods your weapon dmg sux, so you will mod for top dmg, you cant have creativity if mods raise dps of your guns 50 times. Without it you gimp yourself.

 

You only mod for top damage because it's better currently for the combat situations we are being placed in. If you had proper stealth missions you would not bring a heavy machine gun. If you had missions where you knew there would be no ammo you would bring ammo efficient weapons and mods. If you had to fight next to a nuclear reactor you would NOT bring weapons with damn punch through (See Aliens 2), same with not going into melee with mobs that have acid for blood.

 

When you already know that monsters will run straight at you in a tight corridor, with no tactics or regard for personal safety, you bring DPS.

 

Next you will complain that I always play Rock after you tell me you're playing Scissors.

[Calayne]

That is your opinion, not mine. I fail to understand what you want from a free to play system.

If the system is so flawed that it's making it "not fun" for you to play, don't let the door hit you on the way out. If you can have a strong opinion on the devs, ie the individuals whose baby this is, I can make opinions about you, and right now, you're being an @$$.

 

Do I think it could be better? Yes. Is it a game stopper? No.

 

No need to be harsh on a fellow Tenno, friend. 

 

On the other hand, I think that at least, it's known by developers that the mod system needs some kind of rework. But it's a huge undertaking, and I believe they may come to it in a way that improves it bit by bit, based on player feedback. It wouldn't be the first time, thankfully, and hopefully, it won't be the last. 

 

I think they've mentioned on the most recent Devstream that they are going to do a little modifications to the mod system. Hopefully, that spells good things for everyone.

[SirSlayer]

I think they've mentioned on the most recent Devstream that they are going to do a little modifications to the mod system. Hopefully, that spells good things for everyone.

Did they? Well.... guess I gonna wait for the update before emptying my mind.

[Calayne]

You only mod for top damage because it's better currently for the combat situations we are being placed in. If you had proper stealth missions you would not bring a heavy machine gun. If you had missions where you knew there would be no ammo you would bring ammo efficient weapons and mods. If you had to fight next to a nuclear reactor you would NOT bring weapons with damn punch through (See Aliens 2), same with not going into melee with mobs that have acid for blood.

 

When you already know that monsters will run straight at you in a tight corridor, with no tactics or regard for personal safety, you bring DPS.

 

Next you will complain that I always play Rock after you tell me you're playing Scissors.

 

Also, this is a rather accurate analysis.

 

Partially, it's because of the game modes being so one-dimensional that we are able to rely on DPS alone. Partially, it's because we can bypass the game in certain ways, like when you just speed-kill all the Wardens in Rescue 2.0, which was supposed to be stealth-like. Partially, it's also cause the enemies are all so susceptible to pure DPS. 

 

I'd like to recommend reading Notion's "Dumber AI" thread, which has very interesting points on the matter.

 

But that's really just one part of the problem. The mods themselves don't encourage much creativity, or exploration, because DPS is just far more superior in this instance for the above points. There's no reason to use Hush; We go loud all the time eventually. There's no reason to use Status chance improvements: Most of the proc chance for weapons are too low, and the mod's bonus is miniscule.

 

Rebalancing the numbers would certainly help, I feel. But that takes time, and we don't quite know what the developers have in mind at this time. Probably, hearing that 90% of their mods are "useless" would be quite a heart-ache. They spend effort making these. It's not too pleasant for people to just say it's a complete waste.

[Davoodoo]

Indeed! This is what's happening now. 

 

However, I don't think the developers intended for this to be the case. Perhaps now, the mods are skewed. But, to be fair, this is not the fault of the concept, which I think is not too bad; It's an issue of implementation. The way it's implemented, with everything utility eclipsed by damage mods and ways to do more damage, is the core issue. They realise this, I hope, and in time, perhaps it'll change, with the balancing of mods.

 

For Davoodoo's example, this is almost always certainly the case.

 

However, what if, perchance, the mods were rebalanced? What if ammo were more scarce, and you had to choose between very high damage, or additional ammo, if you're not such a terrific shot? Much more likely you'll bring Ammo drum or Ammo Mutation. And what if elemental mods now converts a percentage of your total base damage, rather than adding to it? Then stacking element upon element suddenly becomes less attractive, compared to the way it is now.

 

I have big hopes for the future, because Warframe has a lot of potential. To say the mod system is a waste of space is unjust, and unfair. It has the potential to be better. I still hope for more mods like the punch-through mods: Mods that change the way you play the game, or shoot your gun, in this case. What if you had a gun mod that allowed you to ricochet bullets? What if you had a gun mod that allows you to do additional small DoT damage, at the cost of slightly lowering your base damage? What if you had a mod that allows you to scatter your bullets, slightly increasing your damage, but making it harder to land headshots with both bullets, and reducing accuracy? 

 

The mod system is not the problem, though many problems it does have. But DE needs to fine-tune it, improve it, and ultimately, have it reach the potential it deserves. 

If you would make ammo more scarce i would still keep my high damage build, cause it saves me a tons of ammo already but i would also craft some ammo restores.

Basically you wouldnt shift focus on mods but you would just nerf ammo overall.

 

If you truly want mods to be more tactical choice then get weapon with base dmg, balance around its dps then get mods which add a small amount of dmg, 50% total dps increase would be more than sufficient imo.

[Calayne]

If you would make ammo more scarce i would still keep my high damage build, cause it saves me a tons of ammo already but i would also craft some ammo restores.

Basically you wouldnt shift focus on mods but you would just nerf ammo overall.

 

If you truly want mods to be more tactical choice then get weapon with base dmg, balance around its dps then get mods which add a small amount of dmg, 50% total dps increase would be more than sufficient imo.

 

Well, that's true, and that's certainly a decision you have to make. Myself, I like builds where I have a certain level of sustainability. The problem with low ammo and high damage, is that we fight a lot of trash mobs. Just gunning them down one by one, you might eventually run out of ammo, if your enemies don't drop the right ones. Ammo restores can then use a little buff, based on the individual maximum ammo of each gun. Grakata could stick to the 540 ammo, but Latron, for example, can be nerfed to 240-ish, or whatever it may be. Then, ammo restores could heal percentages of that. 

 

Also, I believe that 50% may still be a little too high. Bear in mind that there's still a Heavy Caliber, which means double damage. Though, considering the ammo reduction, that may not be all bad. 

 

The main issue is in the elemental mods, which add damage, and Split-chamber, which is outright x2 damage of whatever you're already out-putting. One good way to make it balanced would be to make Split-chamber consume double the ammo count as well, when it does proc, and only if you have enough ammo. It's a simple way to get the mod balanced: DPS vs sustained fire/efficiency. 

 

In fact, assuming they change elemental mods and Split-chamber, Serration being 50%-70% at max wouldn't be too bad, either.

[Davoodoo]

Well, that's true, and that's certainly a decision you have to make. Myself, I like builds where I have a certain level of sustainability. The problem with low ammo and high damage, is that we fight a lot of trash mobs. Just gunning them down one by one, you might eventually run out of ammo, if your enemies don't drop the right ones. Ammo restores can then use a little buff, based on the individual maximum ammo of each gun. Grakata could stick to the 540 ammo, but Latron, for example, can be nerfed to 240-ish, or whatever it may be. Then, ammo restores could heal percentages of that. 

 

Also, I believe that 50% may still be a little too high. Bear in mind that there's still a Heavy Caliber, which means double damage. Though, considering the ammo reduction, that may not be all bad. 

 

The main issue is in the elemental mods, which add damage, and Split-chamber, which is outright x2 damage of whatever you're already out-putting. One good way to make it balanced would be to make Split-chamber consume double the ammo count as well, when it does proc, and only if you have enough ammo. It's a simple way to get the mod balanced: DPS vs sustained fire/efficiency. 

 

In fact, assuming they change elemental mods and Split-chamber, Serration being 50%-70% at max wouldn't be too bad, either.

I meant 50% with top dps build

Serration + 4 elements + multishot + rof + heavy caliber=50% dps increase total.

[Calayne]

I meant 50% with top dps build

Serration + 4 elements + multishot + rof + heavy caliber=50% dps increase total.

 

Haha, well, that does change things. 

 

In that case, then Serration, Heavy Caliber, Multishot and all those suddenly become undesirable mods. Why spend points on Serration+Heavy Calibre+ Multishot+ROF+4 Elements just for a 50% increase? These mods would then face the same problem the other mods have: Everything is uninteresting. 

 

I think the other mods need to be buffed, or better defined, while the damage mods are brought lower down. For huge bonuses, have equivalent draw-backs. A little buff is alright, but "Equivalent exchange" is necessary, to an extent. In the way that Split Chamber should now take double the ammo to deal double the damage in the same time, Mods should have a cause-and-effect on your gun, rather than just "Effect effect effect+++". 

 

The ultimate aim is to make all mods viable, rather than a select few. Therefore, it's also undesirable to sweep damage mods under the radar. Equality for all, at no expense of any, so to speak.

[Davoodoo]

Haha, well, that does change things. 

 

In that case, then Serration, Heavy Caliber, Multishot and all those suddenly become undesirable mods. Why spend points on Serration+Heavy Calibre+ Multishot+ROF+4 Elements just for a 50% increase? These mods would then face the same problem the other mods have: Everything is uninteresting. 

 

I think the other mods need to be buffed, or better defined, while the damage mods are brought lower down. For huge bonuses, have equivalent draw-backs. A little buff is alright, but "Equivalent exchange" is necessary, to an extent. In the way that Split Chamber should now take double the ammo to deal double the damage in the same time, Mods should have a cause-and-effect on your gun, rather than just "Effect effect effect+++". 

 

The ultimate aim is to make all mods viable, rather than a select few. Therefore, it's also undesirable to sweep damage mods under the radar. Equality for all, at no expense of any, so to speak.

Thats what choice is if you dont think that its worth your time to get 50% dps increase then dont do it, you wont be forced if thats "only" 50%.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Davoodoo

[SilverHazzes]

I am with you Calayne in making viable the other mods. One of the points it´s to make more options like:

-Deep freeze or Ice storm, you can choose between more mag size or damage.

Another point it´s the slot and points consumption of the core mods and needed elemental damage mods:

-Hornet strike+barrel difusion+lethal torrent+4elemental mods for a faction equals 7 mod slots that will be the same in most of the secondaries and you have left only 1 slot to put another mod.

[SirSlayer]

Maybe weapons should get a little more specialised.

Say, certain guns have different slot loadouts.

 

- The important thing here is the idea not the actual numbers I'm telling -

 

Example - new Braton MK2

2 slots for damage Upgrades (they think about adding a new "newbie serration", that should have a different polarity)

3 slots for rates (critical/status/ammo count/etc)

2 slots for weapon impact debuff (something like the elemental debuffs)

2 slots for misc effects (ammo conversion)

 

Place constraints on guns themselves, per polarity layout and splitting the mod-grid in different sections.

Beginner guns could have little better stats but perhaps less mod-card-slots.

 

 

edit: making the double-shot mods use extra ammo also seems like a reasonable change, but please make it draw from the ammo pool not the magazine.

Edited July 6, 2014 by SirSlayer

[Calayne]

Maybe weapons should get a little more specialised.

Say, certain guns have different slot loadouts.

 

- The important thing here is the idea not the actual numbers I'm telling -

 

Example - new Braton MK2

2 slots for damage Upgrades (they think about adding a new "newbie serration", that should have a different polarity)

3 slots for rates (critical/status/ammo count/etc)

2 slots for weapon impact debuff (something like the elemental debuffs)

2 slots for misc effects (ammo conversion)

 

Place constraints on guns themselves, per polarity layout and splitting the mod-grid in different sections.

Beginner guns could have little better stats but perhaps less mod-card-slots.

 

 

edit: making the double-shot mods use extra ammo also seems like a reasonable change, but please make it draw from the ammo pool not the magazine.

 

Mm, I don't entirely approve of breaking up the mods like that. Makes it more complicated than it needs to be.

 

I actually did recommend a "Utility" portion, sort of like "Aura" slots in that it's for a specific mod type, except it's just a few extra spaces for "Utility mods". The utility mods are pre-determined by DE, of course.

 

The alternate solution is much simpler, I feel, which is the one I've proposed:

 

We address "Required" mods. (Serration, Heavy Cal, Split Chamber) for Damage mods, (Fire, Ice, Electric, Poison) elemental mods, (Point Strike and Vital Sense) for Crit mods. That gives a minimum of 9 "Required" mods, for crit weapons, about 7 for regular.

 

Serration and Heavy Cal are "Required" mods. Therefore, everyone has it, necessarily. What I recommended before would be to lower the damage boost, so it doesn't feel entirely like it has to be there. I've also recommended that the weapon itself gains damage slowly as it ranks up, thus easing newer players into the game, if they have no Serration. Now, there are 7 "Required" mods for crit, 5 for regular.

 

Elemental mods are now damage replacements, rather than additions. No longer can you gain exponential increase by stacking Serration, Heavy Cal, Split Chamber and then spamming elements. Now, choosing your elemental mods is a tactical consideration. 3 "Required" mods for crit, and 1 for regular. 

 

Split-Chamber, I feel, should draw from the mag. If you can store a hundred bullets, and you want to double your DPS, you will effectively have only fifty shots. This is important. We cannot give too much give, or it'll remain as a "Required" mod indefinitely. Now it not only effectively halves your magazine if it always procs, it's also a sure-fire way to punish people who bullet-hose it. 2 "Required" mods for crit weapons. And no mods are required on regular ones.

 

Now, where does this leave the other damage mods? Banes, Razor Shot, and so on?

 

Right where it needs to be. They're arguably more effective at dealing damage now, compared to the other methods. And for good reason, too: They're specific. Bane of Corpus, for example, provides a noticeable difference against Corpus, but has no effect on Grineer. Razor Shot makes your weapon work better against light units. Not so much against shields. And now, we have created choice.

 

 

There is, however, an issue: Steve has mentioned that they'd prefer to include "Newbie mods" as part of the new player experience, rather than allowing weapons to scale up in damage, as you rank it up. A newbie Serration, for example. A fairly good fix. Good introduction opportunity for newbies, to the modding system on the weapons. But to be fair, this change will only help balance on one assumption:

 

That the damage bonuses are all compressed. 

 

The reason why this is the case, you see, is that currently, weapon damage can increase anywhere between 500%-2600% or more. The strong only get stronger. The mediocre, stay that way. The larger you allow the weapons to scale, the more weapons will be left behind. Compressing this scale to a certain extent, will certainly decrease this effect. 

 

Other changes can be implemented, of course. I highly recommend reading Notion's "Balance 2.0" thread. The guy's golden.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/233948-balance-20-the-cost-of-power/