Nyx Chaos + Defense

[IronSight]

Why isn't there a time limit on Nyx's Chaos? It's a big AOE that basically permanently disables enemies, especially bullet-sponge, tank types. How I normally see Chaos used is the Nyx runs around defense zapping big groups of ancients and letting them kill each other down to a hair more than nothing while the rest of the group either tries not to get one-shot by the level 70+ enemies on wave 25 until the Nyx can either find some energy orbs, or regen enough via energy siphon (or go crazy with the gorgon/boltor, I've done that too). A good Nyx seems to be able to juggle 5-6 groups and that's only because they appear to run out of baddies. The end result being Nyx carries the entire defense by herself.

Not that I don't benefit from it as this is a cooperative game, but that really seems like an exploit. It drastically changes the difficulty of Defense missions more than any other ability in any gameplay situation I've encountered so far. (Arguably, invulnerable Saryn had more utility since being invulnerable is useful all the time, but that was patched out.) It makes the rubedo grind easymode which I certainly appreciate, needing 2.4k rubedo for 3 frames.

Now I know some of you are going to say "If you don't like it, don't do it;" I can't control online matchmaking nor can I force a player not to use Chaos. But that's really not the point. My question is "Is this the intended behavior?" Eventually the Tenno holograms fade away, but after fading, the baddies usually don't go after players again, they continue to kill the nearest target. I don't yet have a Nyx, so I don't really understand how it is balanced (ie, energy cost, cooldown, what have you). If I'm missing something obvious, let me know.

Edited April 9, 2013 by IronSight

[Asbyn]

Chaos does have a time limit. It just so happens that, when those confused enemies attack another enemy, both parties will continue to engage the other in combat well after the effect of Nyx's Chaos has run its course.

Edit: Also, you don't get experience from those enemies killed by a confused enemy. And while I'm not certain of this, it also seems like those enemies killed by confused enemies don't drop "loot". I would call that a measure of balance. But, again, don't quote me on that one since I only ever really used my Nyx for Mind Control and her ultimate.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Asbyn

[IronSight]

I believe you are right about the xp/loot scenario, but if you work it right, you should be able to have a player get the killing blow most of the time, which it seems alleviates that particular concern. If as you explained, the duration does end, but the monsters seem to keep their aggro tables (or however they decide who to attack), let me refine the question. Is this a fair use of crowd control that it completely eliminates time pressure from the players on a map type that is entirely based on time pressure and dps race?

[Deathstrik3]

IMO enemies still attacking each other after the power has ended is a bug and needs to be fixed, but even if it were it is still incredibly strong and will still drastically change the difficulty of a defense mission and all a Nyx will have to do is learn a better way of managing energy etc.

As for the xp/loot thing I am unsure about xp because I don't pay that much attention to it when I have played with people using Nyx, but they most definitely do still drop loot, and I know this because of the fact that my friends and I find mods no where near where we were from things we didn't kill.

[Asbyn]

[...] let me refine the question. Is this a fair use of crowd control that it completely eliminates time pressure from the players on a map type that is entirely based on time pressure and dps race?

Oh, I wasn't saying it was fair. Quite the contrary, really. And I'm sure DE is well aware of this, 'though only time will tell. Either they nerf it somehow, or they create an arms race of sorts by introducing another warframe with an even more overpowered ability. Let's hope it's not the latter.

[(NSW)123er432]

I believe that the Enemies continue attacking eachother because of how the game works with mobs hitting eachother.

If a Mob were to hit another mob while under the influence of Mind control once, and then immediately come out of the Mind control, the mob that it Hit will attack it unless a Tenno comes within a certain radius. Due to the other retailiating, the two mobs will continue to fight until A) one of them dies or B) a Tenno comes in range for them.

This same example can be used for Chaos on a much larger scale. The mobs are simply retaliating against their attackers.

My point is, this is not a bug, but part of the game Mechanics.

[Deathstrik3]

I believe that the Enemies continue attacking eachother because of how the game works with mobs hitting eachother.

If a Mob were to hit another mob while under the influence of Mind control once, and then immediately come out of the Mind control, the mob that it Hit will attack it unless a Tenno comes within a certain radius. Due to the other retailiating, the two mobs will continue to fight until A) one of them dies or B) a Tenno comes in range for them.

This same example can be used for Chaos on a much larger scale. The mobs are simply retaliating against their attackers.

My point is, this is not a bug, but part of the game Mechanics.

While it may be a part of how the mechanics are currently set up to work it is still a "bug" because it is not how the power is supposed to actually work.

Also no matter how close you get to a mob after the chaos effect has faded they will not attack you, I have walked in to the middle of a mob and beat them to death with a hammer and they won't even pay attention to me.

[TheToxicTheory]

I believe that the nyx was created this way to create a different strategy for players who want more than a hack and slash play style. The nyx is perfectly fine how they are. you don't see people complaining about excaliburs slash dashing and killing everything or other frames 1 shotting everything with 1 ability do you.. the nyx is well balanced for their style of play.

[Deathstrik3]

I believe that the nyx was created this way to create a different strategy for players who want more than a hack and slash play style. The nyx is perfectly fine how they are. you don't see people complaining about excaliburs slash dashing and killing everything or other frames 1 shotting everything with 1 ability do you.. the nyx is well balanced for their style of play.

Nyx was and still is balanced for the older content, but on endless defense missions where things get to level 80+ pretty quick the fact that the power is bugged and never ends makes it stupidly easy, it is the one ability on any warframe that can get you through all 100 waves almost single handed.

[Hammerspace]

I believe that the nyx was created this way to create a different strategy for players who want more than a hack and slash play style. The nyx is perfectly fine how they are. you don't see people complaining about excaliburs slash dashing and killing everything or other frames 1 shotting everything with 1 ability do you.. the nyx is well balanced for their style of play.

Actually, there is someone complaining about Slash Dash killing everything. The complaint was that he couldn't kill the enemies before the Excalibur did ...

Take that however you want. :D

[Anelyn]

And Excalibur's complain about Ash killing stuff before they can even Slash Dash and the list goes on :)

[Mageroeth]

I love it how people are scream nerf this and nerf that in a coop game...

[IronSight]

I love it how people are scream nerf this and nerf that in a coop game...

I don't know where you come from, but when I've played online games before, profiting from a clear exploit was grounds for banning, which, if you read this thread, is what I am trying to clarify. If this is the expected behavior and all is well, I have no issue with Nyx. Because once I have Nyx, I'm not going to farm Infected Defense with any other frame. It's that good.

[Strac_CRO]

just shut up

[Namacyst]

I don't know where you come from, but when I've played online games before, profiting from a clear exploit was grounds for banning, which, if you read this thread, is what I am trying to clarify. If this is the expected behavior and all is well, I have no issue with Nyx. Because once I have Nyx, I'm not going to farm Infected Defense with any other frame. It's that good.

Banshee is better for Infested Defense missions... if you can handle some piled up Ancients that is.

[SlyBoots]

warframe is not balanced around defense? besides, you can't win the "dps race" pretty quickly anymore because skill damage doesn't scale that well. just let DE make sure enemies "under the influence" (? XD) attack players once it wears off.

Edited April 9, 2013 by SlyBoots

[IronSight]

Banshee is better for Infested Defense missions... if you can handle some piled up Ancients that is.

I have never seen this. I'm not sure if it is because it requires more skill or there just aren't that many banshee players on the levels I play. I tried to find a youtube demo but that wasn't available. I'll keep this in mind and ask in other venues (like region chat) to see if I can solicit a banshee to show me what you mean.

[..] you can't win the "dps race" pretty quickly anymore because skill damage doesn't scale that well. Just let DE make sure enemies "under the influence" (? XD) attack players once it wears off.

And that seems like a reasonable solution. As I understand wave Defense, it's not designed to be won (as in beat all the levels, if that's even possible), it's designed to test your limits and see how far you can get before you're either too low resources to continue, too tired as a player, or just don't put out enough damage to get them before they get you. CC is a valid and probably necessary strategy. It just seems like quite a few quit on a Nyx-carried Defense because they're bored.

[Dunkelheit]

Aggro tables distracted from Nyx chaos + charm should clear once the ability has worn off.

But as a Nyx player I can tell you that this frame is still not easymode, since one Ancient Disruptor can REALLY ruin your day. And energy management is a problem. There are other frames which make defense a cakewalk. Take Rhino + 20 sec invul, take Ember with 200dps aoe dmg vs infested on 25 energy.

And you know what, it feels good that way, because everything else is kinda frustrating and it is still a coop game. Many abilities miss scaling into high level mobs and they should really buff those classes, not nerf everything else.

[BloodKitten]

nyx is fine as is, all about mind games, imagine if someone at your squad was brain washed, mid fight he/she say "OMG STOP!!!" would you believe the effect has passed or your going to continue fire and premently eliminate problem and doubt? :3

[BlackFox666]

im also a nyx player and it isnt easy to be controlling the battlefield in endless defense at all once you hit the 20+ mark, she makes it easier not a pushover

[Hammie]

I also main a Nyx and i agree, the "Hate/Aggro list" for enemies should clear itself of all mobs once the chaos effects wear off. However as previously mentioned - its not as simple as just running around spamming chaos. Its not only a pricy ability (though it IS easy to spam pre wave 10, beyond that, it gets progressively difficult to manage energy) but a single disrupter can really cramp nyx's performance, especially when it comes out of nowhere if you're too focused in one part of the map and arent paying attention to potential disrupters sneaking up on you from behind.

But please dont try and blame Nyx's chaos power for everything. A large part of the problem is the energy system itself. Energy orbs drop like candy, this feature is equally at fault for this issue. Also keep in mind, in the grand scheme of things, Chaos isnt any more effective than decoys, multiple fireblasts (especially if you have more than 1 ember in the team), etc etc. Currently there are more than a few ways to get to high waves on defense. Chaos however just has a 'more noticeable' benefit than the others. (fire blast is probably the least efficient of them though at later levels)

Edited April 10, 2013 by Hammie