Who Thought The Prosecutor Was A Good Idea?

[Zeitzbach]

I don't need "suitable frame", just all elements.

 

"Yo, dawg, i hear you don't like out Damage 2.0 at all, so i give you Prosecutors"

 

Better to be able to obtain that by yourself than to need a teammate for it.

[letir]

Better to be able to obtain that by yourself than to need a teammate for it.

I can obtain it by myself, but cannot see any "strategy" part.

[Liminal]

Neither does prosecutor because all I have to do is change the MODs. I still use the same gun.

Oh but it does [force me to change my whole loadout]*. Since it's immune to all damage types but one.

 

*I mentioned a perfectly viable build style that works for the whole game ... except for Prosecutors. Logic indicates that single enemy's mechanics are to blame, not the whole loadout system.

[Zeitzbach]

Ever played any other game beside this one? MMO often has X enemies that force you to kill it. RO in its prime, for example, has its own elemental table and some of them prevent you from killing it at all until you get the right gear or skill for it.

 

Prosecutor is just the start. What if they add another type of monsters that forces Dual proc element instead? Will logic indicates that those mechanic are to blame again?

[Apophix100]

Ever played any other game beside this one? MMO often has X enemies that force you to kill it. RO in its prime, for example, has its own elemental table and some of them prevent you from killing it at all until you get the right gear or skill for it.

 

Prosecutor is just the start. What if they add another type of monsters that forces Dual proc element instead? Will logic indicates that those mechanic are to blame again?

 

Yes.

 

MMO's are probably the worst example of any game mechanics I can possibly think of and saying that this is okay because "X did it" is not an argument.

[Zeitzbach]

Yes.

 

MMO's are probably the worst example of any game mechanics I can possibly think of and saying that this is okay because "X did it" is not an argument.

 

What you're saying from that is

 

"Logic dictates any new change to the game is bad because players should not need to adapt or change anything to play"

 

If such a task is too difficult, then I suggest avoiding Ceres from now on. They removed the fact you could damage them without proper element before. They already showed that this is how the planet will work, and will stay.

[ArbitUHM]

I'm going to go ahead and say this is just straight up wrong information.

 

 

Had magnetic damage on Kunai. Threw them at electric prosecutor. Did nothing.

You are correct that the combined elements like radiation (electric + fire) will not do anything to an electric prosecutor.  What ElZilcho is recommending is selecting a combined element that grineer are weak to e.g. viral (toxin + cold) and adding a third element like electric.  If you place the mods in the right order, the toxin and cold damage will combine to make viral and your third element, in this case electric, will remain electric.  You'll end with a weapon that is not as good as an optimized anti-grineer setup but still decent enough and capable of handling an electric prosecutor.  You can set your equipment up for all four elements using ElZilcho's recommendations.  If this still doesn't make sense, check out the Damage 2.0 page on the wiki.

 

When the prosecutors debuted I did quite a bit of solo farming with my nekros using "pure" elemental damage setups (so electric tetra, toxin twin gremlins, fire fire dagger, cold sentinel w/ sweeper).  It does switch up how you have to play - having to jump into a big group of enemies to melee down a fire prosecutor was a fun challenge.  Also, using sub-optimal weapons can be a fun challenge in itself.  It is kind of a pain to fiddle with your mod setups specifically for one enemy type, but there's little reason to go to those maps unless you are going there specifically to hunt prosecutors so you know what you're getting into (after your first run-in with them, anyway).

 

If you're getting riled up about being "forced" to change your tactics, note that there are already a ton of ways the game is forcing you to change tactics.  Try using a sniper rifle, angstrum, or ogris against infested.  Mag's powers are crappy against grineer.  Even the different mission types force you to change tactics - a sniper rifle volt works great on a defense mission and not so hot on a survival.  The prosecutors are a heavy handed way of going about it but it's fundamentally no different than the above examples.

[Liminal]

Ever played any other game beside this one? MMO often has X enemies that force you to kill it. RO in its prime, for example, has its own elemental table and some of them prevent you from killing it at all until you get the right gear or skill for it.

 

Prosecutor is just the start. What if they add another type of monsters that forces Dual proc element instead? Will logic indicates that those mechanic are to blame again?

Others doing it doesn't mean it's good. And I don't remember any shooter in which you'd reach a boss and be completely unable to damage it based on your equipment choices.

 

Edit for clarification: equipment choices you made before you started the mission.

Edited July 9, 2014 by The_Doc

[letir]

Ever played any other game beside this one? MMO often has X enemies that force you to kill it. RO in its prime, for example, has its own elemental table and some of them prevent you from killing it at all until you get the right gear or skill for it.

 

Prosecutor is just the start. What if they add another type of monsters that forces Dual proc element instead? Will logic indicates that those mechanic are to blame again?

Yes, it will. Bcs it's another stupid, lazy and lame game design. That's all.

 

It doesn't bring a challenge. It doesn't involve the skill.

 

Step 1: Read th wiki.

Step 2: Put 4 elements in your loadout.

Step 3: Faceroll them (bcs they don't even have any good battle mechanic).

 

Just another Gear Check. Forced.

Edited July 9, 2014 by letir

[Apophix100]

You are correct that the combined elements like radiation (electric + fire) will not do anything to an electric prosecutor.  What ElZilcho is recommending is selecting a combined element that grineer are weak to e.g. viral (toxin + cold) and adding a third element like electric.  If you place the mods in the right order, the toxin and cold damage will combine to make viral and your third element, in this case electric, will remain electric.  You'll end with a weapon that is not as good as an optimized anti-grineer setup but still decent enough and capable of handling an electric prosecutor.  You can set your equipment up for all four elements using ElZilcho's recommendations.  If this still doesn't make sense, check out the Damage 2.0 page on the wiki.

 

When the prosecutors debuted I did quite a bit of solo farming with my nekros using "pure" elemental damage setups (so electric tetra, toxin twin gremlins, fire fire dagger, cold sentinel w/ sweeper).  It does switch up how you have to play - having to jump into a big group of enemies to melee down a fire prosecutor was a fun challenge.  Also, using sub-optimal weapons can be a fun challenge in itself.  It is kind of a pain to fiddle with your mod setups specifically for one enemy type, but there's little reason to go to those maps unless you are going there specifically to hunt prosecutors so you know what you're getting into (after your first run-in with them, anyway).

 

If you're getting riled up about being "forced" to change your tactics, note that there are already a ton of ways the game is forcing you to change tactics.  Try using a sniper rifle, angstrum, or ogris against infested.  Mag's powers are crappy against grineer.  Even the different mission types force you to change tactics - a sniper rifle volt works great on a defense mission and not so hot on a survival.  The prosecutors are a heavy handed way of going about it but it's fundamentally no different than the above examples.

 

Fair enough about the combined elements, what he was saying makes more sense now.

 

The difference between your other examples and the Prosecutors is that with the other examples it is possible to complete the mission even if you didn't change tactics. Like I said, I rarely bother switching out the elemental damage on my Kunai or melee because it doesn't matter much to me. If I need to, I can beat them into submission even though I am not optimized for that particular enemy type. With Prosecutors the game just slaps my wrist and says "no, you're not allowed to beat this one unless you do exactly as we command".

 

I'm all for making Prosecutors absolutely absurdly difficult if you don't swap out tactics. Like full fledged boss fight difficulty or harder. I'm just not for making it impossible.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Slash damage has never worked on the Prosecutors I have encountered. If it bugged every time, well, that's a problem in and of itself. Like I said, my Soma has 0 elemental damage applied to it and does primarily slash damage. No effect.

 

The bottom line of how I look at this enemy type is this:

 

At WORST it prevents players from completing the level, period.

 

At BEST it's a pointless pain in the @$$ which reduces your combat effectiveness on other enemies for no reason.

 

I see no benefit to this enemy type existing in its current state.

 

 

 

Also to reply to the team coordination thing:

 

I would LOVE for some reason to be presented which would make it extremely beneficial to actually communicate and work together as a team. I remember when I was pretty new and Tower missions came out, my buddy and I did a T3 exterminate way before we were supposed to. We had to manually lead individual enemies into the start room and take them down one at a time, like a mini boss fight on each enemy. But it was a lot of fun. I just don't want it to be this fake, artificial garbage that Prosecutors are.

 

Busy day. Normally I would have checked back sooner. The non-elemental damage seems to work with melee weapons. Looks like people have already been talking about the elemental thing.

 

Potential bugs aside, I think this is actually great design. You can engage the new melee-focused enemy in melee, or you can bring a specialized gun to take them down. They do need to make it consistent though. I stand by the design, but won't stop you from criticizing it not working as intended.

[Zeitzbach]

Yes, it will. Bcs it's another stupid, lazy and lame game design. That's all.

 

It doesn't bring a challenge. It doesn't involve the skill.

 

Step 1: Read th wiki.

Step 2: Put 4 elements in your loadout.

Step 3: Faceroll them (bcs they don't even have any good battle mechanic).

 

Just another Gear Check. Forced.

 

Meanwhile, Brute forcing on a bullet sponge is acceptable, simply because you don't see the number "0".

 

Brute forcing doesn't bring a challenge. IT doesn't involve the skill

 

Step 1 : Don't care about learning

Step 2 : Equip the best gun

Step 3 : Faceroll them because after 400-500 bullets, they die because they don't have any good battle mechanic.

 

Just another "Best gun only". Forced. At least in Prosecutor, I can bring any gun I want as long as I cover the element.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Zeitzbach

[tidus1112]

Busy day. Normally I would have checked back sooner. The non-elemental damage seems to work with melee weapons. Looks like people have already been talking about the elemental thing.

 

Potential bugs aside, I think this is actually great design. You can engage the new melee-focused enemy in melee, or you can bring a specialized gun to take them down. They do need to make it consistent though. I stand by the design, but won't stop you from criticizing it not working as intended.

I've tried to melee them to death, and to shoot them to death, and I've never once seen them take damage from anything other than the exact elemental type they require. I use a slash based melee and primary, so if that were to damage them, I wouldn't have a problem. Instead, I get zeros, and just end up getting angry about not being able to finish the mission at all (because I didn't change my loadout to prepare for every single possible element type).

 

If it was merely a melee focused enemy and took damage from melee attacks all the time, sure, I'd be okay with that. The unfortunate part is that they literally don't take damage from anything but their particular element. I've only fought 5 or 6 because I didn't want to deal with them at all anymore, but never once was I able to damage them with anything but their specific elemental type. If this was just a bug that happened to occur every single time of the 5 or 6 times that I fought them, well, that definitely needs to be fixed. If it isn't a bug, the enemy type needs to be changed.

 

As has been stated (going off of the fact that they only take damage from their particular element, which has been the case 100% of the time I've fought them), the enemy type doesn't make any sense. It adds absolutely nothing beneficial to the game. It's frustrating, and it's a way of creating an artificial level of difficulty, and linear gameplay (forcing ALL players who want to play high level Grineer missions to use elemental builds). It outright doesn't make sense that I just cannot finish a mission because I don't have the right elemental attack type. If I'm playing an exterminate mission, and one of these guys shows up, I should be able to kill him somehow without a specific elemental type (even if that means wasting multiple mags on him, or slashing him w/ melee weapons or whatever). There ought to be an alternative way to kill him.

 

For a game that appears to be designed around creating a unique warframe, using a unique playstyle, and equipping a unique set of mods, it doesn't make sense that all of a sudden we are REQUIRED to use very specific mods (and to not use other very specific mods --mods that would create mixed element types) to play the highest level Grineer missions in the game. I don't play lower level missions because they are boring. Now I'm limited to playing non-grineer missions because I refuse to completely reorganize my loadout to match some stupid elemental spec so that I can kill ONE enemy out of hundreds. It doesn't make sense. All this does is take up an extra mod slot and remove our ability to choose how to play the game. And yes, one mod slot IS actually that important when you're trying to take out the highest level mobs you can. I'm sure some of you can understand this. I've built my spec very specifically, and I simply don't want to use pure elements in that build. Mix elements, sure, sometimes, but pure elements are not beneficial to me. I wouldn't care if my build simply didn't allow me to kill these guys easily. The problem is that I literally can't kill them at all. This simply doesn't make sense to me.

[letir]

Meanwhile, Brute forcing on a bullet sponge is acceptable, simply because you don't see the number "0".

 

Brute forcing doesn't bring a challenge. IT doesn't involve the skill

 

Step 1 : Don't care about learning

Step 2 : Equip the best gun

Step 3 : Faceroll them because after 400-500 bullets, they die because they don't have any good battle mechanic.

 

Just another "Best gun only". Forced. At least in Prosecutor, I can bring any gun I want as long as I cover the element.

And what? Bring the gun with element and faceroll them anyway. Where is difference?

[Zeitzbach]

One requires you to study your opponent before hand so you can actually kill them, which will also limit your ability to fight the other creatures.

 

Another one means you can go Rhino mode and slam face on the keyboard with the same set of option you had been using for 95% of the game.

 

There's a reason why Ceres survival is challenging compared to other survivals beside T4. You can't pump 3-4 elemental card into one weapon and hold Left click with ammo mutation to kill everything instantly for the next 45 minutes.

 

Go mod, or go home. Pretty much.

[letir]

One requires you to study your opponent before hand so you can actually kill them, which will also limit your ability to fight the other creatures.

 

Another one means you can go Rhino mode and slam face on the keyboard with the same set of option you had been using for 95% of the game.

 

There's a reason why Ceres survival is challenging compared to other survivals beside T4. You can't pump 3-4 elemental card into one weapon and hold Left click with ammo mutation to kill everything instantly for the next 45 minutes.

 

Go mod, or go home. Pretty much.

S#&$ty design.

1) You don't know about Prosecutors, so if you meet one, you must abort mission and "go home". Bcs "reasons".

2) You can't go in Rhino mode, Ex mode, Nyx mode or any ohter "mode" besides elmental frames. You also can't go in "sword alone", or go without Sentinel, or just stuck with your lovely Strun. Bcs "reasons"

Variety of Warframes and playstyles? Place mod or go home.

3) There is also system "Damage 2.0", but you don't need it - place one elemental mod or "go home". Bcs "reasons"

Edited July 12, 2014 by letir

[Zeitzbach]

S#&$ty design.

1) You don't know about Prosecutors, so if you meet one, you must abort mission and "go home". Bcs "reasons".

2) You can't go in Rhino mode, Ex mode, Nyx mode or any ohter "mode" besides elmental frames. You also can't go in "sword alone", or go without Sentinel, or just stuck with your lovely Strun. Bcs "reasons"

Variety of Warframes and playstyles? Place mod or go home.

3) There is also system "Damage 2.0", but you don't need it - place one elemental mod or "go home". Bcs "reasons"

 

The reason being : "refusal to learn to play"

 

I see...

 

Ever heard of the phrase : "Learn from your mistakes"? You met the Prosecutor once. You messed up. What do you do? Learn how to deal with them. If you go in and lose to the same prosecutors again because you simply refuse to change your gear, then shame on you. It's like going to Void without corrosive and running out of ammo from trying to kill heavy gunners

Edited July 12, 2014 by Zeitzbach

[letir]

The reason being : "refusal to learn to play"

 

I see...

 

Ever heard of the phrase : "Learn from your mistakes"? You met the Prosecutor once. You messed up. What do you do? Learn how to deal with them. If you go in and lose to the same prosecutors again because you simply refuse to change your gear, then shame on you. It's like going to Void without corrosive and running out of ammo from trying to kill heavy gunners

Ever heard about "variety"?

 

Play Dark Slouls. In this game you can beat enemy in ANY way, even with BARE HANDS if you skilled enough.

[letir]

The reason being : "refusal to learn to play"

 

I see...

 

Ever heard of the phrase : "Learn from your mistakes"? You met the Prosecutor once. You messed up (1). What do you do? Learn how to deal with them. If you go in and lose to the same prosecutors again because you simply refuse to change your gear(2), then shame on you. It's like going to Void without corrosive and running out of ammo from trying to kill heavy gunners

1) It's not like "you" can lear about Prosecutors "before" or "in the process". Nope. Push "abort" and try again.

2) Why should i do it anyway? I'm fine with my gear in 99% situations. i'm master of 1 gun.

[LtZefar]

Ever played any other game beside this one? MMO often has X enemies that force you to kill it. RO in its prime, for example, has its own elemental table and some of them prevent you from killing it at all until you get the right gear or skill for it.

 

Prosecutor is just the start. What if they add another type of monsters that forces Dual proc element instead? Will logic indicates that those mechanic are to blame again?

Ok, the difference between Ragnarok Online and Warframe is that in Ragnarok Online you chose where you want to level and you know exactly what enemies will be there if you checked it up. If you didn't, you'll see the enemies there and you can go back to your Kafra storage and properly gear yourself. In no way will they completely mess you up.

 

MAYBE and I say MAYBE on a Special Quest. But these enemies are mostly just immune to ONE Elemental stat. Maybe two. The other elements either deal less damage or high damage to that monster. So Ragnarok Online had none of this bullS#&$.

 

Now here in Warframe that one unit can stop you from completing your mission. Imaging if you've found a good Aura and now you can't complete the mission because of that one enemy. People would be mad as hell. Because they can kill anything else and even quickly but that one little enemy? Nah man, they are immortal to everything but X element.

 

 

They could make the enemy immune to one of the single or Dual Elements but still being able to take damage from the rest.

 

How people are willing to defend this enemy is beyond me but you really need to stop. Warframe needs to go towards better stuff and not worse.

[TenshuYuusha]

Now here in Warframe that one unit can stop you from completing your mission. Imaging if you've found a good Aura and now you can't complete the mission because of that one enemy. People would be mad as hell. Because they can kill anything else and even quickly but that one little enemy? Nah man, they are immortal to everything but X element.

 

 

They could make the enemy immune to one of the single or Dual Elements but still being able to take damage from the rest.

I wasn't aware we could get Auras to drop :v /nitpicky

Your suggestion doesn't really make the "issue" any better though, since that wouldn't involve challenge. Prosecutors are only on Ceres, therefore they're not a surprise to you unless it's your first time in Ceres, otherwise you know there's a possibility of one being there... that's a reason to spread your elements out between your weapons and sentinel. The only thing I'd say is if someone has a dual element, and the Prosecutor is weak to one of the elements used for the combination, they at least take partial damage.

 

 

 

Except that's already a bad playstyle to begin with, which is already a problem, which is addressed in other major threads in this forum. The idea being that these enemies require a specific playstyle which is the only way to beat them. Other playstyles that are plenty valid in every other part of the game are suddenly 100% useless.

 

Switching elements isn't a playstyle, it's part OF one. You're still jumping around shooting stuff or slashing/bashing them, the playstyle hasn't changed, you just now see different numbers that for a Prosecutor it doesn't exactly matter. They're tough as all hell when they have the resistance, but once that's a non-factor, oooh they drop like flies. I like the Prosecutors and personally have no issue with them, they, like the MOsprey are a bit of a breath of fresh air, it breaks the monotony of the enemy's subpar AI. They're both a "Well S#&$ just got real" type of enemy. Granted the Prosecutor runs on a lean mixture like the rest of the enemies, but that's a problem with enemies as a whole, not specifically the Prosecutor.

And if your Sentinel dies to a Prosecutor, better give that little guy some Vitality :v. The Prosecutor, nor the enemies it boosts should be close enough to hurt the Sentinel, even Bombards.

[Zeitzbach]

Ok, the difference between Ragnarok Online and Warframe is that in Ragnarok Online you chose where you want to level and you know exactly what enemies will be there if you checked it up. If you didn't, you'll see the enemies there and you can go back to your Kafra storage and properly gear yourself. In no way will they completely mess you up.

 

What you're are saying is

 

"If you can't deal with the enemies, you have to go back and properly gear yourself then do this again. IT'S NOT BS"

 

Meanwhile, in Warframe.

 

"If you can't deal with the Prosecutor, you have to go back and properly mod yourself then do this again. IT'S BS."

 

Yeah, ever had to run down 2-3 floors of dungeon before having to leave? It's the same thing as aborting the mission.

 

Not to mention I remember having a whole 400 pages guide book ready for specific elemental page + damage before Ratemyservers was around. You're fine with RO having such a huge info block and specific method yet you're not okay with a single unit here because you refuse to change weapon.

 

It's not "Badly designed" enemy issue here. It's a "Lazy player" issue. How hard is it to get a

 

Frost

Fire gun

Toxic secondary

And Eletric weapon? heck, whenever I go to Ceres, I just switch to Frost Prime, Boar with fire, Angstrum with toxic and Electric Prime Reaper. Playstyle? Still the same. I shoot. I jump. I copter (bad weapon though cause it's in the middle of crafting) and I press 4 to win. Loots everywhere.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Zeitzbach

[LtZefar]

I wasn't aware we could get Auras to drop :v /nitpicky

Your suggestion doesn't really make the "issue" any better though, since that wouldn't involve challenge. Prosecutors are only on Ceres, therefore they're not a surprise to you unless it's your first time in Ceres, otherwise you know there's a possibility of one being there... that's a reason to spread your elements out between your weapons and sentinel. The only thing I'd say is if someone has a dual element, and the Prosecutor is weak to one of the elements used for the combination, they at least take partial damage.

 

Oh right, meant Sword Stance mods and Grineer drops a rare one that most people want. Imaging getting that one and meet that enemy.

 

As for knowing that they are there. But then you're forced to just pick one good weapon vs Grineer and the rest of the weapons you bring alone are ONLY for that one enemy that MIGHT show up. I also don't like Melee weapons and have hated them for a long time. I just equip a melee weapon and sell it at 30 and then move to a new one. 

 

For secondary it's often something I want to level up as well unless it's a primary that I level up. Rarely will I bring 3 fully leveled weapons to a normal map just for one enemy that is based on luck.

 

As for Sentinel dying. Do you know how much HP these little buggers have on max level? Not much. Even with high HP mods for them. They can die very quickly if they get the enemy attentions. Hell back when Flame thrower enemies where powerful as hell they wiped out the Sentinel the moment they showed up.

 

If enemies makes mincemeat out of my 1000+ Shield they are not going to have a problem with a like 400 shield Drone.

[Zeitzbach]

You're making it as if enemies on ceres have 5k hp minimum.

[TenshuYuusha]

You're making it as if enemies on ceres have 5k hp minimum.

He may be referring to higher level Defense and Survival. But I'm speaking from experience, my Sentinel rarely dies since I'm focusing on enemies and diverting attention away from my Sentinel. Scorches, again shouldn't be getting close... which, I apologize, but if they're still getting in your face as well as other enemies and you have a dislike for melee weapons...

Prosecutors can be considered a srs bzns enemy and you're only relying on a primary with a secondary you're just leveling up, and a disdain for a melee... why should that be accommodated? (serious question, really)