Do You Think Primes Should Have More Purpose?

[DSpite]

I do not think you know what it means either.

 

Pay-to-win : Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

 

Warframe could be considered pay-to-win already, now that Primes, mods are monetized. However, as prime weapons aren't necessarily the best, it's just a pay of convenience at this moment. That is fine the way it is, but the line is thin and could be easily crossed.

 

They also had the right idea to limit certain weapons with mastery level.

 

Also it is fallacious thinking to associate competitive PVP with a pay-to-win system. They are both entirely different concepts that are not mutually inclusive.

 

If you make the Prime Warframes better than their normal counterparts, you clearly are making this game Pay-to-win. The incentive for DE to make us spend platinums so we can be better will just increase.

 

Just look at what they did with the helmets. People will pay good platinum for certain arcane helmets now.

 

Finally, I have no idea what you are babbling about with your last sentence. One has nothing to do with the other. Stay on topic.

 

 

Awww, that's so cute, you cut and pasted the definition from UrbanDictionary, posted by some random user 3 years ago:

 

"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

Dude, you've spent like 400 bucks on this game so you can beat everyone who hasn't spent any money. Pay-to-win noob!

by Icupeverynite February 07, 2011"

 

Maybe try something like this http://au.ign.com/articles/2012/08/13/separating-free-to-play-and-pay-to-win

 

"Wargaming and CEO Victor Kislyi" ... "According to Kislyi, establishing a competitive game that is skill-based helps. If you’re knowledgeable about the game, you should be able to have a shot at winning, even against someone who has spent more money. It’s when the “wallet warriors” always win that causes other players to get frustrated and bail out."

 

Even at it's most basic definitions I found, Pay2Win means that "you can not advance in the game if you don't hand over money". Not applicable here, at most we "pay for extra fun".

 

No one in Warframe cares how many mods or cores or frames or guns you have. Even if you can buy a special frame for $1000, please, for the love of logic, explain to me what you are winning with your payment? I will get copies of any drops you generate, and If I became annoyed with you casting your "Kill Everything in 100m radius Instantly" skill, I'll drop out and go into another game, or ask DE nicely for a blocking tool that makes sure I don't get paired up with people in my block list that have no understanding of the word "fun".

 

You can unbalance LoL or Call of Duty or even WoW or EVE Online with Pay2Win when your paid winning cause another person losses, either financially or time based, or experience based or item based if on a kill you can take their gear.

 

Considering this game has zero consequences, your argument is incredibly broken.

[Magnagar]

I do not think you know what it means either.

Pay-to-win : Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

Warframe could be considered pay-to-win already, now that Primes, mods are monetized. However, as prime weapons aren't necessarily the best, it's just a pay of convenience at this moment. That is fine the way it is, but the line is thin and could be easily crossed.

They also had the right idea to limit certain weapons with mastery level.

Also it is fallacious thinking to associate competitive PVP with a pay-to-win system. They are both entirely different concepts that are not mutually inclusive.

If you make the Prime Warframes better than their normal counterparts, you clearly are making this game Pay-to-win. The incentive for DE to make us spend platinums so we can be better will just increase.

Just look at what they did with the helmets. People will pay good platinum for certain arcane helmets now.

Finally, I have no idea what you are babbling about with your last sentence. One has nothing to do with the other. Stay on topic.

Where in the hell is primes considered pay to win if you can clearly obtain them in-game from grinds???

If a prime is better then the original, it's worth the grind. It doesn't make it a P2w.

Prime Access is to only get things faster

Your one blabbering non-sense.

EDIT: Primes should be straight up upgrades towards their originals. Why other then swag would it be worth grinding for if the stats are the exact same?

Edited July 10, 2014 by Magnagar

[Theodorick]

I was wrong, you are right. Good points.

[genclaymore]

Personally they ought to be stronger, ALOT stronger, Loki prime's got a nice 25 energy boost over his non-prime version but could still have alot more :l...

Same because if they just the same exact as the normal but with gold paint on them. Then I will never make them as i wont see a reason to do so not even for raising the rank. I think they should have either special skills like a improved iron skin or a different skills or something. Because right now they just for looks. I don't need a second rhino that the exact same as the first but with gold attached, it has to be really specail as in it skills and not just tad faster or tad more enegry but different. Because right now they might as well just offer the prime skins in the store and dont bother making a second frame naming it a prime.

Edited July 10, 2014 by genclaymore

[low1991]

I was wrong, you are right. Good points.

guys above seems to not play WF for a long duration to make such sentence.

[Yorinar]

Where in the hell is primes considered pay to win if you can clearly obtain them in-game from grinds???

 

If you spend 40 hours grinding for something (and I've probably spent more so far on loki prime), you start to question what scope "obtainability" entails.

[Magnagar]

If you spend 40 hours grinding for something (and I've probably spent more so far on loki prime), you start to question what scope "obtainability" entails.

Still doesn't mean it's p2w.

EDIT: remember when rhino prime was also hard to get? Well now he's not. DE keeps rotating the drop tables to make the time of "hype" to now much better. Same will go for Loki prime.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Magnagar

[genclaymore]

guys above seems to not play WF for a long duration to make such sentence.

Oh really because I have a different opinion then some one on the subject, translator  into me not playing the game long enough to not accept some one else opinion give me a break.  I been playing the for almost a year and a half,  Why do my opinion has to match some one else for it to be viewed as one, get off your high horse.

 

I don't care how long it take to make the frame if it just for looks then it aint worth it at all to me and I have farmed for normal warframes as well normal weapons because they had beneifts to have for another warframe or weapon,  Why would I want a second rhino or a gold sprayed loki or etc prime frames, when they are the same exact thing as the normal ones but pimped out.

if i gotta do all of that work for a warframe that prime than it better be something special and not just a rhino that tripped into a bucket of super glue and gold chips or a loki that ran thru Gold paint. it might as well just be a skin that you can buy for the normal warframe's since it just paint sprayed over the existing warframes with shiny objects stucked on.

 

They might as well just stop wasting time with doing prime warframes and keep that prime marker for weapons and put all of that time wasted into the other parts of the game like bug fixes and other things that needs to be done.

 

Just put out a prime color theme to the market and the prime gold attachments to the armour addons and call it a day. If they hard to get then they should be something special in reguards to differnet skills or improve performance. Other wise get rid of them all together.

Edited July 10, 2014 by genclaymore

[Yorinar]

Still doesn't mean it's p2w.

EDIT: remember when rhino prime was also hard to get? Well now he's not. DE keeps rotating the drop tables to make the time of "hype" to now much better. Same will go for Loki prime.

 

You're right.  And I don't think warframe is P2W.  It's something different that players don't have a good name for, but many of us come to feel at some point.  

 

On the one hand you have a game where the only thing you can buy are cosmetics or things that maybe offer you slight conveniences.  Like let's say you got 10 warframe slots for free.  Buying another 6 slots would be pure convenience at that point.  You're just a collector.  

 

But if you only have 2 slots for frames, you actually do need to buy more or else the range of what you're capable of achieving in the game is limited.  This is not a convenience but an imperative.  And if you get by on 2 slots, more power to you, but the scope of gameplay you're capable of experiencing is vastly limited compared to someone with 10 slots.  Sure you can build another frame if you need it, but I'll see you in 3 1/2 days.

 

Time is money, ultimately, and when a game forces you to spend way more time earning something, you should probably ask yourself how much are you earning by grinding for it?

 

If I spend 40 hours grinding loki prime, when it would have cost me $80, that means I'm earning $2/hr.  So unless I'm in a situation where that's the best I can hope to earn, I'm seriously wasting my life by doing it.

 

And that brings me to my final point: a game should seek to minimize regret in its players.  That encourages more playing and spending all around.  Yay, I finally got my loki prime after 40 hours of farming (I haven't).  I earned $2/hr for a week's labor.  My god, what am I doing with my life.

 

So warframe is not P2W.  It's "pay to not waste your life and regret your life choices" (P2WTFAMIDOINGGOD).

 

Are we having fun yet?

 

So bringing it back to the topic at hand.  If primes are just cosmetic upgrades, then why the hell would I put myself through that?

[Magnagar]

You're right.  And I don't think warframe is P2W.  It's something different that players don't have a good name for, but many of us come to feel at some point.  

 

On the one hand you have a game where the only thing you can buy are cosmetics or things that maybe offer you slight conveniences.  Like let's say you got 10 warframe slots for free.  Buying another 6 slots would be pure convenience at that point.  You're just a collector.  

 

But if you only have 2 slots for frames, you actually do need to buy more or else the range of what you're capable of achieving in the game is limited.  This is not a convenience but an imperative.  And if you get by on 2 slots, more power to you, but the scope of gameplay you're capable of experiencing is vastly limited compared to someone with 10 slots.  Sure you can build another frame if you need it, but I'll see you in 3 1/2 days.

 

Time is money, ultimately, and when a game forces you to spend way more time earning something, you should probably ask yourself how much are you earning by grinding for it?

 

If I spend 40 hours grinding loki prime, when it would have cost me $80, that means I'm earning $2/hr.  So unless I'm in a situation where that's the best I can hope to earn, I'm seriously wasting my life by doing it.

 

And that brings me to my final point: a game should seek to minimize regret in its players.  That encourages more playing and spending all around.  Yay, I finally got my loki prime after 40 hours of farming (I haven't).  I earned $2/hr for a week's labor.  My god, what am I doing with my life.

 

So warframe is not P2W.  It's "pay to not waste your life and regret your life choices" (P2WTFAMIDOINGGOD).

 

Are we having fun yet?

 

So bringing it back to the topic at hand.  If primes are just cosmetic upgrades, then why the hell would I put myself through that?

Exactly, very true I can totally agree on the long grinding process. Its not a P2W, more like a play to "massively" grind. Rhino prime took me forever to get back when his Access Prime just came out. I didnt even want to sell the set, knowing that i could have made at least 200 plat because it took soo long. People could get through the game without spending a dime, but the process especially for new players would take forever. Probably a month or so just so you can catch up and get somewhere with farming those desired prime parts and mods or what not for trade value. Not even getting it for yourself because its value dropping by the week. Then once the hype goes down, go and farm it again so you can finally build it for yourself. >_>

This system is tedious and could be better implemented and still have DE make good money. The reason why I got suckered into spending money in the first place is because it just takes so long to make 20 plat and buy 1 slot for a single frame. Anyway, you have my +1.

As for cosmetics, that is out of the question if you wanted to get them for free. Say the iliac set. Man that would probably take a month or two alone just to build up 220 plat.

[CY13ERPUNK]

ok 1st thing, lets split prime weapons from prime frames (prime sents another story)

 

so IMHO prime frames need ALTERNATE abilities, ie the 'prime' versions of the abilities could have slightly tweaked functions, maybe less dmg but more cc or vice versa, they could have different mod pt cost, higher/lower based on their function or even different polarities (a new unique 'prime' polarity)

 

the frame's themselves are fine as they are IMHO, even though I am aware of the power-creep issue and I would much prefer if every prime frame had a negative to go along with their positives, ie if rhino prime is faster, maybe he should have slightly less hp/shields/armor/energy/etc/whatevs

 

as far as prime weapons go, i really want prime weapons to have altered functions, ie tweaked stats, and not necessarily be just straight upgrades (unless DE wants to clearly mastery lock all the prime gear)

 

prime sentinels dont really have the room to have a different ability set, however they could still have modified functionality, for example:

 

carrier prime's vacuum could have more range, but as a tradeoff, carrier prime could have less hp/shield/etc (i use this as an example, there will never be carrier prime since carrier is a grineer design)

[DSpite]

Oh really because I have a different opinion then some one on the subject, translator  into me not playing the game long enough to not accept some one else opinion give me a break.  I been playing the for almost a year and a half,  Why do my opinion has to match some one else for it to be viewed as one, get off your high horse.

 

I don't care how long it take to make the frame if it just for looks then it aint worth it at all to me and I have farmed for normal warframes as well normal weapons because they had beneifts to have for another warframe or weapon,  Why would I want a second rhino or a gold sprayed loki or etc prime frames, when they are the same exact thing as the normal ones but pimped out.

if i gotta do all of that work for a warframe that prime than it better be something special and not just a rhino that tripped into a bucket of super glue and gold chips or a loki that ran thru Gold paint. it might as well just be a skin that you can buy for the normal warframe's since it just paint sprayed over the existing warframes with shiny objects stucked on.

 

They might as well just stop wasting time with doing prime warframes and keep that prime marker for weapons and put all of that time wasted into the other parts of the game like bug fixes and other things that needs to be done.

 

Just put out a prime color theme to the market and the prime gold attachments to the armour addons and call it a day. If they hard to get then they should be something special in reguards to differnet skills or improve performance. Other wise get rid of them all together.

 

This game is NOT made just to please you. I like more or less everything in this game so far, and my only forums posts regarding suggestions are based around giving us more things to, as I don't see how constructive it actually is to yell in forums things like:

 

"I want all the stuff now, DE isn't giving it to me fast enough, and when I get it, it's not as good as I think it should be"

 

A lot of things in this game are just bling for collecting purposes. There is ZERO reasons to make more powerful Primes, but DE usually will boost them because - listen carefully here and note I'm not aiming this specifically at you - so many players out there are whiny, entitled little teenagers that don't understand when they are already getting way too many things for free.

 

There are games out there that will take EVERYTHING away from you. Years of work, of collecting, GONE, items you might have purchased with real cash and tried to use, permanently destroyed, or stuck in a location, forever locked out to you.

 

In this game, you can basically join a team, hide in the rafters, go take a toilet break, come back, and WHAM, you have a bunch of free Prime drops sitting in your "mission compleated" end screen.

 

"They might as well just stop wasting time with doing prime warframes and keep that prime marker for weapons and put all of that time wasted into the other parts of the game like bug fixes and other things that needs to be done."

 

How about no, does NO work for you?

 

If this game is wasting YOUR time? Why are you still here?

Edited July 10, 2014 by DSpite

[-CM-Crazy]

People act like having a slightly more powerful version makes your original frame USELESS. Let's say I have had a reliable iphone 5 since it came out and I have never had problems with it and I loved it. Now the iphone 5s comes out it doesn't make my iphone 5 COMPLETELY USELESS like you guys are saying. There is just a slightly better version out now.

[Magnagar]

People act like having a slightly more powerful version makes your original frame USELESS. Let's say I have had a reliable iphone 5 since it came out and I have never had problems with it and I loved it. Now the iphone 5s comes out it doesn't make my iphone 5 COMPLETELY USELESS like you guys are saying. There is just a slightly better version out now.

This

Original frames/weapons aren't useless, there's just a better tameable verison of them. Just like with iPhones, you can upgrade to 5s for a better performance. Then again, once you have your iPhone 5s, you'll never use your iPhone 5 right? Making iPhone 5 inferior. Same with primes as they should be a slit to a complete upgrade towards its previous version.

They aren't useless, but they will be after you rank them to 30 and upgrade to prime.

[Flackenstien]

..How about if we had a certain level type where only primes could access like 'Orokin Tomb' or something where you could only bring prime gear..

Thought this was gonna be another one of them "omg buff pryme frames" threads, but that is actually a rad idea.

There could be an Orokin area of sorts that anything that isn't theirs gets vaporized upon trying to enter, this you can only reach there by using all Prime gear. (Sorta like how the Void isn't exactly safe to enter, unless you're in a Warframe.)

 

Like you said, it'd be a good way to add another layer to the foundation of end game.

_____________________________________________________

 

@DSpite: "There are games out there that will take EVERYTHING away from you. Years of work, of collecting, GONE."

 

EOC -.-

Edited July 11, 2014 by Flackenstien

[Morvik]

Well as everyone says people farmed for hours or days or weeks to get their primes.... Doesnt that mean that they should be rewarded for their effort and support of DE? Just seems to make sense to upgrade them so there is more incentive to get them and the people that have invested the time get a bump. The other frames would not be obsolete because not everyone has the primes and spent so much time to get them. An upgrade fits with the lore and seems like the logical choice to reward veteran players. However, primes should have the skin of the original that you can put on if you dont like shiny stuff for some reason. Otherwise there is no obvious reason to not bump em up a bit

[Magnagar]

Throwing this out there

Maybe primes can get an upgrade from "focus" or something where those items can get a second aura slot or maybe 2 extra empty slots? 0_0