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This is something that people love to gloss over.  Founders might get angry, but how many people do you really think would be happy if they knew for sure that that they were getting denied content on the basis of a promise that never actually happened?

 

It is the whole "it won't happen to me" way of thinking.  We like to feel special.  it is human nature.  Exclusives help us achieve that level of feeling special as it gives us "bragging" rights.  The founders packs are gone and will not be coming back (while DE is still DE) so no new blood will come into the founder's ranks.  The same cannot be said about new players.  They come in every day growing the population (it more ebbs and flows) while the founders population will only EVER shrink.  From a business standpoint, you go where the money is and sadly that is not founders as they will never reach the level of income DE can get from new players.  To be brutally honest people, it is only a matter of time.  It really is a forgone conclusion. 

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Sadly, this is true. The longer this games lasts, the more Founders will disappear. We will be myths, legends. Down the line, even seeing a Founder will be very unlikely. I don't think I've ever run into another Founder in all my time playing Warframe. Granted, I'm 90% soloing, but still, we're a rare breed.

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Sadly, this is true. The longer this games lasts, the more Founders will disappear. We will be myths, legends. Down the line, even seeing a Founder will be very unlikely. I don't think I've ever run into another Founder in all my time playing Warframe. Granted, I'm 90% soloing, but still, we're a rare breed.

 

It happens in every game, a section of the population when seen are like seeing a unicorn.  Who knows depending on the outcome in a month we may be seeing drastic changes that bring back formerly never coming back exclusives back into the game.  If one thing everyone should learn from the past week, is money talks.  Founders do not have much to offer in income as new accounts far exceed the amount of founders that we have still playing or ever had.  Founders in most cases only log in once a week or till they get done with the new content patches or events and then log off for extended periods of time depending on that weeks "tenno reinforcement". Newer players are more likely to spend money on plat or prime access compared to founders.  They will cater things to them rather than to you, founders.  You just don't bring much to the table anymore.  I'm sorry, it is a really crappy thing to have to say but it is reality.  

 

We have already seen a loss of many of the old guard who were once very active in the community.  Many of us that have been here six months or longer can name one person that was a member of that group that doesn't even log in anymore.  I'm not saying, lie down and die, I'm saying accept that things are not what they were a year ago.  Expect change and expect a lot of changes that you won't like as they will be geared to benefit newer players rather than us old guys.  It is the nature of things.  

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Dual heatswords were added in update 6.2

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/9532-update-6-hotfix-62/

 

The heat sword has been in the game since well before that and was originally a drop off ambulas.

 

 

It's a concession to a non existent right of exclusivity.  DE shouldn't have to cave to founders over this.  They were never made any promises about dual variants.

 

Dual skana, Dual heat swords and Dual kamas are the only ones in this situation. That situation being that their single version came out before their dual version. Go check it. Now out of those three that are in this situation only one uses their single varient to make their dual. Which we already know is dual kamas. So in this situation (that dual skana prime is currently in) DE can be seen to have taken the route of not including their single version in the making of their dual version more times then including it.

 

Wiki states that the heat sword (single) came out in update 8, that isn't before update 6.2. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/49101-update-8-rise-of-the-warlords/

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Only one thing on the subject, then I'm going back to my popcorn and beer. 

 

You guys ever hear of world of tanks? I'll pretend you haven't, and just use them real fast to illustrate something. 

 

Wargaming, the company that owns and operates WoT, isn't always considered all that smart with money, especially here stateside. Their gift shop packages are, frankly, baffling sometimes, and far, far more money than people are usually looking to spend (there was a Christmas package for $300, or thereabouts. WoT is a F2P game, too. Yeah, you heard me right, haha.) Things like this are often seen as moves of pure greed on their part- especially given that the discount in the pack was negligible, at best. we're talking 5-10%. It felt like a cash grab, pure and simple, in other words- get the parents or grandma and grandpa or something to shell out an obscene amount of dosh for a 'deal' that wasn't really a deal at all for little Timmy's Christmas present, leaving the rest of us pretty boned. (At the time, later deals came through and some weren't too bad, but this was by no means the only multihundred dollar package that Christmas)

 

Now, why's this important? It establishes that, occasionally, WG makes questionable decisions, at least in the eyes of the player base. 

 

With that said, WG also put out a founder's package for the US server. It featured two different tanks, one per pack (there was a medium pack with some oddball sherman variant, and a heavy pack with the mutant 6). These tanks have never been made available again on the US servers, Despite repeated calls for them to be sold and the position that it would make the company vastly more money to sell them than to keep them locked away. Afterall, the number of people who bought the pack is dwindling, while new players jump in every day. 

 

Now, again, bear in mind that WG, and by extension, WGNA (their North American branch) aren't always thought very highly of. And in the same situation, they've repeatedly stated the Box set tanks will never return, that they consider their word inviolate. 

 

Of course, in a month? Any promises made to us, the founders, by DE may well be totally null and void, and, judging by the forums, the first way for perfect world to start making money is re-release the founder's exclusives in lockboxes as the uber rare drop. It wouldn't help the ongoing issues with the RNG any, but... you know. Profit numbs the pain, at least for them. 

 

That said? who here thinks Bioware is still a good company? Who still thinks Ubisoft is ok after this whole watchdogs SNAFU? All it takes is one screwup for your reputation to tank, and MMOs, especially ones using the F2P model are a lot more fragile than AAA Titles. Re-releasing exclusives- even in a situation like this, where it's totally not the exclusive item, it's separate- is extremely dangerous for a developer's reputation, especially if they then later need startup funding for another game. 

 

Anyway, yeah. if you bothered to read that whole mess, and managed to get my message out of it, cool. But, I'm not here to argue, and don't care to. Cheers! 

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Only one thing on the subject, then I'm going back to my popcorn and beer. 

 

You guys ever hear of world of tanks? I'll pretend you haven't, and just use them real fast to illustrate something. 

 

Wargaming, the company that owns and operates WoT, isn't always considered all that smart with money, especially here stateside. Their gift shop packages are, frankly, baffling sometimes, and far, far more money than people are usually looking to spend (there was a Christmas package for $300, or thereabouts. WoT is a F2P game, too. Yeah, you heard me right, haha.) Things like this are often seen as moves of pure greed on their part- especially given that the discount in the pack was negligible, at best. we're talking 5-10%. It felt like a cash grab, pure and simple, in other words- get the parents or grandma and grandpa or something to shell out an obscene amount of dosh for a 'deal' that wasn't really a deal at all for little Timmy's Christmas present, leaving the rest of us pretty boned. (At the time, later deals came through and some weren't too bad, but this was by no means the only multihundred dollar package that Christmas)

 

Now, why's this important? It establishes that, occasionally, WG makes questionable decisions, at least in the eyes of the player base. 

 

With that said, WG also put out a founder's package for the US server. It featured two different tanks, one per pack (there was a medium pack with some oddball sherman variant, and a heavy pack with the mutant 6). These tanks have never been made available again on the US servers, Despite repeated calls for them to be sold and the position that it would make the company vastly more money to sell them than to keep them locked away. Afterall, the number of people who bought the pack is dwindling, while new players jump in every day. 

 

Now, again, bear in mind that WG, and by extension, WGNA (their North American branch) aren't always thought very highly of. And in the same situation, they've repeatedly stated the Box set tanks will never return, that they consider their word inviolate. 

 

Of course, in a month? Any promises made to us, the founders, by DE may well be totally null and void, and, judging by the forums, the first way for perfect world to start making money is re-release the founder's exclusives in lockboxes as the uber rare drop. It wouldn't help the ongoing issues with the RNG any, but... you know. Profit numbs the pain, at least for them. 

 

That said? who here thinks Bioware is still a good company? Who still thinks Ubisoft is ok after this whole watchdogs SNAFU? All it takes is one screwup for your reputation to tank, and MMOs, especially ones using the F2P model are a lot more fragile than AAA Titles. Re-releasing exclusives- even in a situation like this, where it's totally not the exclusive item, it's separate- is extremely dangerous for a developer's reputation, especially if they then later need startup funding for another game. 

 

Anyway, yeah. if you bothered to read that whole mess, and managed to get my message out of it, cool. But, I'm not here to argue, and don't care to. Cheers! 

Without a hint of sarcasm, cool story. In addition I agree.

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Only one thing on the subject, then I'm going back to my popcorn and beer. 

 

You guys ever hear of world of tanks? I'll pretend you haven't, and just use them real fast to illustrate something. 

 

Wargaming, the company that owns and operates WoT, isn't always considered all that smart with money, especially here stateside. Their gift shop packages are, frankly, baffling sometimes, and far, far more money than people are usually looking to spend (there was a Christmas package for $300, or thereabouts. WoT is a F2P game, too. Yeah, you heard me right, haha.) Things like this are often seen as moves of pure greed on their part- especially given that the discount in the pack was negligible, at best. we're talking 5-10%. It felt like a cash grab, pure and simple, in other words- get the parents or grandma and grandpa or something to shell out an obscene amount of dosh for a 'deal' that wasn't really a deal at all for little Timmy's Christmas present, leaving the rest of us pretty boned. (At the time, later deals came through and some weren't too bad, but this was by no means the only multihundred dollar package that Christmas)

 

Now, why's this important? It establishes that, occasionally, WG makes questionable decisions, at least in the eyes of the player base. 

 

With that said, WG also put out a founder's package for the US server. It featured two different tanks, one per pack (there was a medium pack with some oddball sherman variant, and a heavy pack with the mutant 6). These tanks have never been made available again on the US servers, Despite repeated calls for them to be sold and the position that it would make the company vastly more money to sell them than to keep them locked away. Afterall, the number of people who bought the pack is dwindling, while new players jump in every day. 

 

Now, again, bear in mind that WG, and by extension, WGNA (their North American branch) aren't always thought very highly of. And in the same situation, they've repeatedly stated the Box set tanks will never return, that they consider their word inviolate. 

 

Of course, in a month? Any promises made to us, the founders, by DE may well be totally null and void, and, judging by the forums, the first way for perfect world to start making money is re-release the founder's exclusives in lockboxes as the uber rare drop. It wouldn't help the ongoing issues with the RNG any, but... you know. Profit numbs the pain, at least for them. 

 

That said? who here thinks Bioware is still a good company? Who still thinks Ubisoft is ok after this whole watchdogs SNAFU? All it takes is one screwup for your reputation to tank, and MMOs, especially ones using the F2P model are a lot more fragile than AAA Titles. Re-releasing exclusives- even in a situation like this, where it's totally not the exclusive item, it's separate- is extremely dangerous for a developer's reputation, especially if they then later need startup funding for another game. 

 

Anyway, yeah. if you bothered to read that whole mess, and managed to get my message out of it, cool. But, I'm not here to argue, and don't care to. Cheers! 

 

Founders was created (for warframe) to suppliment the money a publishing company would have spent supporting the project.  For a project this size, I think that was there first mistake of many.  The second them being actual items that hold weight within the game rather than it be a cosmetic skin.  

 

And as you point out, in a month, we may be playing with a brand new deck and all previous bets are off the table.  While yes reputation is easy to destroy, one thing you forget to take into account (at least from my understanding of your post) is most casual players don't take reputation into account.  They focus on fun first and foremost when it is a rather unknown studio.  I had never heard of DE prior to warframe (never connected the dots with dark sector and unreal, I actually had to google it when I learned of this game a year ago).  Hardcore gamers are like founders, going the way of the dinosaur.  It is the era of the casual gamer.  The ones who will be more willing to spend money to catch up to those last surviving hardcore gamers.  

 

EDIT:  And bloody hell i need to go back to playing Tera, I've become WAY to philosophical at the moment.  

Edited by Zaresin
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And as you point out, in a month, we may be playing with a brand new deck and all previous bets are off the table.  While yes reputation is easy to destroy, one thing you forget to take into account (at least from my understanding of your post) is most casual players don't take reputation into account.  They focus on fun first and foremost when it is a rather unknown studio.  I had never heard of DE prior to warframe (never connected the dots with dark sector and unreal, I actually had to google it when I learned of this game a year ago).  Hardcore gamers are like founders, going the way of the dinosaur.  It is the era of the casual gamer.  The ones who will be more willing to spend money to catch up to those last surviving hardcore gamers.  

 

I think you underestimate the importance of reputation, especially in the gaming industry. Just look at the PWE panic and you'll see what reputation can do.

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I think you underestimate the importance of reputation, especially in the gaming industry. Just look at the PWE panic and you'll see what reputation can do.

Im pretty sure its reputation based on 1-2 things. Not constant failure like PWE has

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I think you underestimate the importance of reputation, especially in the gaming industry. Just look at the PWE panic and you'll see what reputation can do.

 

PWE is well known compared to two years ago, Digital Extremes was a footnote in the gaming world.  Founders took a chance on a very unestablished company.  DE has always been better known for their artistic talent, not game creation.  To a casual gamer, they will more likely judge a game on the "fun factor" rather than the poor reputation of a company or EA would have died a long time ago.  

 

 

EDIT:  To the mods, this line of conversation is in line with the original topic.  What the conversation (at least for me) is trying to do is show that change is inevitable.  And some changes, like what the OP is wanting, as time goes on will more than likely become a reality.  

Edited by Zaresin
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PWE is well known compared to two years ago, Digital Extremes was a footnote in the gaming world.  Founders took a chance on a very unestablished company.  DE has always been better known for their artistic talent, not game creation.  To a casual gamer, they will more likely judge a game on the "fun factor" rather than the poor reputation of a company or EA would have died a long time ago.  

 

Warframe has been one of the top ten free to play games on steam for half a year-ish now. Beyond that, warframe has gotten DE quite a bit of notoriety from E3, MMObomb, and the several other places it got exposure. I wouldn't say DE is a big developer, but they're definitely well known enough that their reputation could be hurt by something like this.

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Warframe has been one of the top ten free to play games on steam for half a year-ish now. Beyond that, warframe has gotten DE quite a bit of notoriety from E3, MMObomb, and the several other places it got exposure. I wouldn't say DE is a big developer, but they're definitely well known enough that their reputation could be hurt by something like this.

 

It all depends on what the final outcome will be in a month who will take the final blame.  One thing PWE is good for is being a scapegoat.  Are we going to blame DE if should things play out as many news sites predict it to play out or will be blame PWE for continuing their same past behavior should DE stop being DE?  

 

Also remember the Beta tag, nothing is set in stone as we have seen numerous times since coming to open beta.  

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It all depends on what the final outcome will be in a month who will take the final blame.  One thing PWE is good for is being a scapegoat.  Are we going to blame DE if should things play out as many news sites predict it to play out or will be blame PWE for continuing their same past behavior should DE stop being DE?  

 

It's also the details of the final outcome that matter, there are a lot of different ways for that situation to play out. PWE being involved might not be a bad thing, or it might be a very bad thing. We just don't know.

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It's also the details of the final outcome that matter, there are a lot of different ways for that situation to play out. PWE being involved might not be a bad thing, or it might be a very bad thing. We just don't know.

 

Either way, I think DE will not take the blame in the end should PWE come into play.  One thing that will play in DE's favor about implimenting unfavorable design decisions into the game will be because of the stigma about PWE.  DE's reputation will most likely stay untarnished in that regard.  

 

Thats why I think this idea is a forgone conclusion.  They have little to lose and much to gain.  

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Either way, I think DE will not take the blame in the end should PWE come into play.  One thing that will play in DE's favor about implimenting unfavorable design decisions into the game will be because of the stigma about PWE.  DE's reputation will most likely stay untarnished in that regard.  

 

Yeah. Any bad things that happen would automatically be blamed on PWE because of their reputation. I don't expect any changes to the game because of that deal though, I can't see DE giving up Warframe so easily with it's history.

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Yeah. Any bad things that happen would automatically be blamed on PWE because of their reputation. I don't expect any changes to the game because of that deal though, I can't see DE giving up Warframe so easily with it's history.

 

If one thing everyone sure should be sure of that has any experience in business whether it is on the service side or the management side is that money talks.  Marketing will always have the final say on things like this as they hold the purse strings.  It could mean either adding a job, keeping a job, or losing a job.  

Edited by Zaresin
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If one thing everyone sure should be sure of that has any experience in business whether it is on the service side or the management side is that money talks.  Marketing will always have the final say on things like this as they hold the purse strings.  It could mean either adding a job, keeping a job, or losing a job.  

 

Not always true. I've had some experience with business and I can tell you that money talks, but there are some things you just aren't willing to part with no matter the price. We're still human after all.

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Not always true. I've had some experience with business and I can tell you that money talks, but there are some things you just aren't willing to part with no matter the price. We're still human after all.

 

Very true, but considering the status of the founder population versus the non founder population.  I think this is one area that money will be the deciding factor.  

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Very true, but considering the status of the founder population versus the non founder population.  I think this is one area that money will be the deciding factor.  

 

I think as long as there are any founders left, DE will honor their commitment to them. There's no real downsides in doing so, and not doing so could potentially trigger backlash. In this particular instance, it's probably better to play it safe.

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I think as long as there are any founders left, DE will honor their commitment to them. There's no real downsides in doing so, and not doing so could potentially trigger backlash. In this particular instance, it's probably better to play it safe.

 

I think that is where we will have to agree to disagree.  As a business, you don't ignore the majority of your customer base in favor of a small dwindling population of your overall customer base.  It never ends well.  Not unless you boost those numbers of the small population somehow and since that isn't gonna happen at this point in time it would not be a wise business move.  

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I think that is where we will have to agree to disagree. As a business, you don't ignore the majority of your customer base in favor of a small dwindling population of your overall customer base. It never ends well. Not unless you boost those numbers of the small population somehow and since that isn't gonna happen at this point in time it would not be a wise business move.

Releasing dual skana primes as a void drop wouldn't be a huge moneymaker. Causing drama by sneakily re-releasing exclusives could potentially lose them money. Seems like a fairly simple choice to me. Edited by vaugahn
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