-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS- Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) Blah blah blah. Look at Mantle demos that show massive amounts of particles and particle physics being thrown around. This would be too slow in DX9/11. Try to inform yourself a tiny bit more about Mantle. Yes it is a lowlevel API that boosts performance...but is also a way to make TressFX and particle physics work without killing your hardware. Try to inform myself a bit more? What does this have to do with it? I edited my post with info quoted from AMD. They're simply bypassing usual APIs and allowing the game to communicate directly with the hardware to free up resources. It then goes on to say that if resources are "freed up" game developers can program more complex/better games. That DOES NOT equal building hardware cores/shaders designed specifically to handle the specific physics calculations that PhysX requires. This does not mean that a CPU or any other GPU can't handle PhysX, but it does mean that PhysX was specifically designed around Nvidia hardware. Other hardware may not be optimized for it. Dismissing my factual post as technical jargon while asking me to inform myself better doesn't really make sense now does it? Look. I'm not a fanboy. I have gear from both the red and green teams. I've been building and designing my own computers for over 20 years. I know what the hardware does. lol. Edited July 11, 2014 by sushidubya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toppien Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Even between members of the master race there's still differences... just kidding XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkDataStorm Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 This guy is right. thanks for the appreciation. Mantle API reduces overhead so much and also allows GCN architecture to take over certain workloads that realtime physics simulation does not need to be done by a bajillion units like on a nvidia gpu. yeah this is the status quo but who knows what will come with Direct X12,13,etc? anyway there are a lot of misconceptions about this topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shehriazad Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) Try to inform myself a bit more? What does this have to do with it? I edited my post with info quoted from AMD. They're simply bypassing usual APIs and allowing the game to communicate directly with the hardware to free up resources. It then goes on to say that if resources are "freed up" game developers can program more complex/better games. That DOES NOT equal building hardware cores/shaders designed specifically to handle the specific physics calculations that PhysX requires. This does not mean that a CPU or any other GPU can't handle PhysX, but it does mean that PhysX was specifically designed around Nvidia hardware. Other hardware may not be optimized for it. Dismissing my factual post as technical jargon while asking me to inform myself better doesn't really make now does it? Look. I'm not a fanboy. I have gear from both the red and green teams. I've been building and designing my own computers for over 20 years. I know what the hardware does. lol. I never said that it would magically handle PhysX...I was talking about substitutes...which is mentioned in the very first line of my first post. AMD can provide substitutes to PhysX..since that is just a library used to work with Nvidias cuda cores for particle physics. GCN and Mantle can provide pretty much the same amount of particle clusterfuck is what Im saying. Edited July 11, 2014 by Shehriazad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFkenny Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Granted the PhysX effects are all rather subtle touches- extra sparks when destroying crates and more particles when casting abilities, mostly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khranitel Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 With this on the main page, do you really think that DE is allowed to do something for AMD users, considering nVidia's notoriously shady business practices? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raptor_458 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Get an older nvidia gpu- you can set it up to run physx by itself and let your main card do the rest. Not sure if that will work with and+nvidia though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shehriazad Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) Get an older nvidia gpu- you can set it up to run physx by itself and let your main card do the rest. Not sure if that will work with and+nvidia though. Lots of unnecessary tinkering required. PhysX implementation here like in many others games isn't actually all that great though...I don't miss it when it's turned off...except for the Jat Kittag jump attack. Many other effects are actually annoying...look at Exca blind...with PhysX on it will actually make it hard to aim properly and take away so much vision...just horrifying. The only thing it also seems to affect is the physics of Syandanas..which saddens me....Syandana physics are horrible without physX... even though this should actually not be the case...but with PhysX on my "capes" do not jitter around and freak out..when it's off it's just bad. And thanks to the Nvidia logo Im sure that they wouldnt use AMDs TressFX or just any other physics that isn't so horrible for Syandanas. Edited July 11, 2014 by Shehriazad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl_Facehugger Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 You tell me to be incorrect and go on with incorrect statements? It looks like you completely listen to the marketing/pr info nvidia spreads. physx is just an engine, anything can ran a piece of software if the developer wouldn't b#tch around so much. Unless DE is not allowed to make physx run in software mode, it is only a matter of pressure by the players to make them implement this feature. PhysX in software mode? Oh lordy, I'm just imagining the extra overhead of trying to emulate those CUDA cores in software and it's making me cringe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khazlol Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 (edited) perhaps less demanding effects could be made as alternative? stuff like embers fire look just like smoke on my amd card. fire effects in world of warfract literally looks better xD Edited July 11, 2014 by khazlol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FishNeedles Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Granted the PhysX effects are all rather subtle touches- extra sparks when destroying crates and more particles when casting abilities, mostly. I just switched from a AMD to Nvidia and actually thought it made a pretty big difference. So many more particle effects for everything. Just got the Jat Kittag and love doing a ground slam to see those blue particles fly out. :) This proprietary S#&$ still pisses me off though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FishNeedles Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 PhysX in software mode? Oh lordy, I'm just imagining the extra overhead of trying to emulate those CUDA cores in software and it's making me cringe. I ran PhysX in software mode in Borderlands 2 on my AMD. If there wasn't a ton going on it ran fairly smoothly, but it would turn into a slideshow very quickly. Same with Mirror's Edge. This was on a pretty high end machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReizoRyuu Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 AMD and Intel users can easily run Physx in games if the developers allow it. DE refuses to do so Hmmmmm no not really, every physx module that has a cpu backend to it can and will run fine on a non nvidia equipped system yes. But the modules without that backend are only compatible with nvidia hardware, nothing else. Warframe uses Physx Apex Turbulence for the particle effects and this particular module has no cpu backend. Now, UE4 has proven that these kind of particle effects are 100% possible on all kinds of hardware, but that's because Epic built a particle system of their own which uses directcompute; heck everything that physx holds "exclusive" to nvidia could be done with directcompute. http://youtu.be/_ubIvvzl7HY You can download and try that demo^ here So the only way for the particles to also work on other hardware, is if DE converts the Turbulence particle system they are currently using to a directcompute one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Letter13 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 You tell me to be incorrect and go on with incorrect statements? It looks like you completely listen to the marketing/pr info nvidia spreads. physx is just an engine, anything can ran a piece of software if the developer wouldn't b#tch around so much. Unless DE is not allowed to make physx run in software mode, it is only a matter of pressure by the players to make them implement this feature. I'm a computer engineer. I've studied CPU and GPU architecture. PhysX uses specialized hardware instructions that can only be executed on Nvidia GPUs, Nvidia GPUs are designed with special opcodes (operations at transistor level logic) that PhysX takes advantage of. When programs are compiled, they are turned from high level code (i.e. C, C++, etc) into executables or batches of code which which are translated into a low level code fed into a CPU (or in this case a GPU). At this point it's what's called machine code; machine code depends greatly on the type of processing unit it is being fed into (for example a CPU has a much larger set of operations it can execute while a GPU has a much smaller library, this is because a CPU is a jack of all trades and master of none). I would absolutely LOVE to see you try to run software written/compiled for x86/64 processors on an ARMv7 device. It won't work because said software can only run on x86/64 based processors. The same holds true for Hardware-Accelerated PhysX; the PhysX effects that require hardware acceleration are compiled for Nvidia CUDA architecture. They utilize machine code that doesn't exist on CPUs or AMD GPUs, if you fed this code into a CPU or an AMD GPU, it would likely bluescreen your computer because the drivers and hardware cannot execute those hardware instructions. tl;dr Not all software works on all types of CPUs/GPUs. When you're changing the hardware which code is being executed and processed on, you need to re-write the software to make it compatible with the hardware. So the only way for the particles to also work on other hardware, is if DE converts the Turbulence particle system they are currently using to a directcompute one. While it's certainly feasible and in this case true that UE4's directcompute can produce the same sorts of effects, Warframe's entire physics engine is PhysX (syndanas, ragdolls, everything). It would require a lot of revising in order to implement, and I'm fairly certain that Nvidia actually lent some of its programmers to DE to implement the turbulence fields and advanced effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiraShado Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 ^He's right you know.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nefrai Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 +1 Letter13, agreed fully. I've flip-flopped between AMD/ATi and Nvidia for years, and after getting screwed over by AMD on a $800 video card, have been sticking to nVidia (EVGA usually). It is nice to have Physx, I don't care about more particles so much, it's the cloth physics that make me happy. I often turn off the setting on WF that causes everything to glow brightly, because the game becomes nigh-blinding (getting more used to it over time though). AMD has the ability to render nice particles and cloth, etc, but they still can't use Physx - unless Nvidia is willing to license it out to them, but I doubt that will happen. I'm just glad Physx got integrated into video cards, I remember when it was a separate piece of hardware, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReizoRyuu Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 While it's certainly feasible and in this case true that UE4's directcompute can produce the same sorts of effects, Warframe's entire physics engine is PhysX (syndanas, ragdolls, everything). It would require a lot of revising in order to implement, and I'm fairly certain that Nvidia actually lent some of its programmers to DE to implement the turbulence fields and advanced effects. Oh I'm sure of that, just because it's possible doesn't make it very likely to ever happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Letter13 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I remember when it was a separate piece of hardware, lol. RIP AGEIA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunero Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 No, because Nvidia will always be a $&*^ about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MageMeat Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I'm a computer engineer. I've studied CPU and GPU architecture. PhysX uses specialized hardware instructions that can only be executed on Nvidia GPUs, Nvidia GPUs are designed with special opcodes (operations at transistor level logic) that PhysX takes advantage of. When programs are compiled, they are turned from high level code (i.e. C, C++, etc) into executables or batches of code which which are translated into a low level code fed into a CPU (or in this case a GPU). At this point it's what's called machine code; machine code depends greatly on the type of processing unit it is being fed into (for example a CPU has a much larger set of operations it can execute while a GPU has a much smaller library, this is because a CPU is a jack of all trades and master of none). I would absolutely LOVE to see you try to run software written/compiled for x86/64 processors on an ARMv7 device. It won't work because said software can only run on x86/64 based processors. The same holds true for Hardware-Accelerated PhysX; the PhysX effects that require hardware acceleration are compiled for Nvidia CUDA architecture. They utilize machine code that doesn't exist on CPUs or AMD GPUs, if you fed this code into a CPU or an AMD GPU, it would likely bluescreen your computer because the drivers and hardware cannot execute those hardware instructions. tl;dr Not all software works on all types of CPUs/GPUs. When you're changing the hardware which code is being executed and processed on, you need to re-write the software to make it compatible with the hardware. While it's certainly feasible and in this case true that UE4's directcompute can produce the same sorts of effects, Warframe's entire physics engine is PhysX (syndanas, ragdolls, everything). It would require a lot of revising in order to implement, and I'm fairly certain that Nvidia actually lent some of its programmers to DE to implement the turbulence fields and advanced effects. Remembering the days of Ced23Ric and Blatantfool, I imagined a "git gud" at the end of that large explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-HAKUNA-YOUR-TATAS- Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 No, because Nvidia will always be a $&*^ about it. Hey... business is business... Proprietary/Intellectual property is really all any tech company has going for it. I mean no one is going to spend years of research and develop time and money, then give it all away for free. no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReizoRyuu Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Hey... business is business... Proprietary/Intellectual property is really all any tech company has going for it. I mean no one is going to spend years of research and develop time and money, then give it all away for free. no? Nokia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khazlol Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Hey... business is business... Proprietary/Intellectual property is really all any tech company has going for it. I mean no one is going to spend years of research and develop time and money, then give it all away for free. no? it's possible to be open source and make money :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Methanoid Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I really hate it how I can't use physX just cause Nividia owns it. My GPU can easily run it too. i really hate the taste of pepsi and wish it would taste more like cola........owait. thats a pretty silly argument tbh, its nvidia's, why should it be available for use on ati stuff, their direct competitors? surely the answer is get an nvidia card? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(NSW)LilVanu Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I don't know what the problem is. I've played with physx on warframe and they look absolutely terrible. With my AMD GPU constantly crashing my whole system I'm starting to reconsider my graphics card choice... :| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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