Debunking The Myth That Is Pay To Win

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

More like Pay2SaveTime or w/e you want to name it.

Pay2GETERDONE

[Octoknightx]

Pay2GETERDONE

This....so much this...take all my this

[DirkDeadeye]

Pay2GETERDONE

 

 

I find this acceptable.

[J4CKY]

Don't bother he's too far gone.

[(PSN)STARSIDE_DESTINY]

You're taking the term "pay-to-win" way too literally. I've heard people call Warframe "pay-to-rush", which I agree with.

[Bazookagofer]

I am going to enjoy nitpicking this post :D

So we all know those people that like to call every game with a market p2w. Now I admit there are some games which give incredible power to players that pay, but do they win? For a game to be p2w the player would have to be able to buy something that let's him win the game. But THERE IS NO SUCH THING.

 

A:You are taking the definition too literally here. Your first mistake. The general consensus on P2W is a model which allows you to buy certain items that give you an advantage over other players who did not pay.  In some games though you can get the same items but you grind them. This is where it stops being white and black but turns more into shades of grey. If the grind is relatively small to get the same items as people who payed than the game is leaning more towards P4C(Pay for Convenience). If the grind is relatively large than you can kind of start assuming it P2W. (Hint, Warframe has a pretty big grind. But TBH now that I am doing Void missions etc I find it a lot less troubling than once I started Warframe)

 

If a player buys a gun that can kill everyone instantly it is still not p2w. It's not like the player CAN'T die. He just can kill you the moment he sees you. It isn't an instant win the game button. But it is an instant kill that guy button. But anyone with skill could kill this guy from behind.

 

A:No. But this gun gives him an enormous advantage over other players which either cannot receive the same gun or got to grind to get it. Depending on the grind it is P4C or P2W.

 

If a player buys some kind of armor than protects him from tons of damage, it is not p2w. He still isn't "winning" the game. He still needs to DO something to WIN. Anyone could just dump bullets on him and wait till he dies.

 

A:Same as above.

 

Now let's look at TF2. Some people love to call this game p2w. Now we all know that is false. The stock weapons are the BEST weapons in the game for all situations. You give up your effectiveness in one situation to specialize in another with other weapons.

 

Now there are tons of other free to play games that let you buy DIRECT UPGRADES that can murder everyone on sight. The weapon with the highest price is obviously better. Same with buying armor. You buy the highest priced armor and you clearly live longer. But this does not mean you WIN.

 

 As I said, for a game to be p2w there would have to be an item in their market that the player could use to win the game. But I have yet to even hear of such a game so p2w is a total lie.

 

A:Again you are taking the term way too literally. Kind of childish TBH.

 

Now let's look at Warframe. Warframe is mostly a co-op game with some pvp in conclaves and dojo duels and future pvp as seen in devstream. Now I will say this flat out. There is no pay to win in a co-op game, there is pay to kill everything, there is pay to last forever, but there is no pay to win. It takes some skill to win. And anyway who CARES if you bought your extreme power with money. It's not like you are harming anyone buy buying stuff. It is CO-OP.

 

A:And if PvP becomes a big part of the game people who bought forma, better weapons WILL have an advantage over someone who tries to grind the forma and catalysts. After a few months of playing I only have 3 reactored Warframes and only 1 catalyzed weapon and one heavily formad weapon.(RNG gods have not been with me lately).  Someone who uses plat might have a more guns and more warframes formad. He can also buy maxed out mods faster than me etc. This is P2W because paying money gives him a direct advantage over someone who doesn't pay. Please learn the definition.

 

So in Warframe, you can buy guns and warframes. But the guns that you can buy mostly suck except a few good ones. And you can build them all anyway. But here is the point everyone loves to point out when calling Warframe pay to win: Slots. Slots are not pay to win. Slots don't limit your ability to kill an enemy. If you want a better gun sell that Braton you got lying around and make that Penta. If you want a better warframe sell that crap Banshee you got in your closet(inb4 uwotm8bansheemasterrace ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)). And anyway with trading you can get FREE, yes FREE, platinum. I have never seen any game, EVER let you TRADE for currency that you would have to buy with real money. This is what makes Warframe so great. You want that Pyra Sugatra(Yes DE please make a Pyra Sugatra for my Dragon Nikana ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)) go sell that Heavy Caliber you found. You want a slot for Boltor Prime? Go sell your Loki Prime parts.

 

A:This still takes a while. Especially for noobs who don't got enough of the good stuff to take on the bigger stuff that gives you the ability to farm. 

 

So even if paying gave you unlimited power you are never UNBEATABLE. Companies that love to sell power like to make it seem like the players can still win without paying to keep their players from rioting. So they limit the power you can buy as close as they can to the line of literally paying to win the game but they don't cross it. So please, NEVER EVER CALL A GAME PAY TO WIN. Sure a game me be horribly unfair but you are using the wrong term. The right term would be pay to wreck or pay to kill, etc.

 

A:Again you are misinterpreting the wildy used term PW2 to justify... I don't even know what. I have a gut feeling you just spent 1000$ on this game and maxed out everything... Are you having a guilt trip now?

 

So please...no more pay to win. Thank you and goodnight.

 

A:Thank you and goodnight.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Bazookagofer

[Octoknightx]

I am going to enjoy nitpicking this post :D

Nitpick is op yo ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[(PSN)Gross1985]

I'm still wondering if this game truly is "pay-to-win".  The catch here is that paying IRL money can get you some good stuff (Platinum), which you can use to upgrade your Warframe and other arsenal.  But, as per my experience, even if you commit lots of money into upgrades, success isn't guaranteed.  Maybe it depends on how you spend your Platinum (and subsequently your money), but still.  Though, I can only speak for myself in this matter; I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but with how far I am in the game, I can't seem to get past some of the more recent missions, and I think I've committed about over $200 into this game.

 

Otherwise, you don't necessarily have to pay IRL money to get upgrades.  Though, acquisition of the necessary items to upgrade your gear takes much longer.....not that many people have a huge problem with this.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

-snip-

This game has no aspect to it that makes it P2W.

[7grims]

You wasted your time writing stuff, everyone knows warframe isn't pay to win.

If you look at all the game structure you see the devs made it very well so no one haves advantages over others by simply spending money.

Edited July 12, 2014 by 7grims

[Bazookagofer]

Nitpick is op yo ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Not really...

[road2toad]

Reading this topic makes me want to cry.  The simple answer is, the only thing worth buying in the market is colour pallets, syandanas, sugatras, and maybe affinity boosters, which all those things, are unnecessary.  No one needs any of those things, the things you need you can farm on planets and void keys.  Pretty much everything in the game that isn't cosmetic is obtainable. And also, Pay2Win doesn't necessarily mean pay money, automatically win, and profit.  It's more of a Pay2WinFaster, like most people are saying.  You can do the same in this game, but it isn't MANDATORY.  It's mostly for people who don't have the time to spend on a game this time consuming, or they are very impatient, however, with myself, I have a fair bit of time and I am very patient.  So,  if you don't have a lot of time to spend on this game, or don't have any money to spend on this game to buy what you want, don't even play this.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

-snip-

You didn't even read the while topic... did you?

[Wahooo]

TL;DR there is no such thing as pay to win. And clearly if you were able to respond this fast you didn't read anything. If you did you wouldn't have made these comments.

Didn't have to read the whole thing, nor do I want to.

 

I've not heard P2W mentioned about WF for a long time and I will defend the free model they are using to the end. 

 

It is nice you'd like to make the world align to your own view of definitions but it is not needed, but also wrong.  In a game like Combat Arms or APB where a free player is right along side someone dropping cash and the weapons and gear that can be bought far out class what is available for free, and we end up against each other.  I lose and they win often enough based only on the gear that was paid for.  They paid to beat me, they won, they paid to win.

It exists.  That people throw it around anytime there is a cash shop, yes is annoying but that doesn't mean it is never true.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

P2W is paying for an advantage, for example, paying for Loki Prime.  It gives you an advantage over regular Lokis and over people that have to farm for it.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Didn't have to read the whole thing, nor do I want to.

 

I've not heard P2W mentioned about WF for a long time and I will defend the free model they are using to the end. 

You would need to read the whole thing to know that he praised Warframe for not being P2W.

[ElHefe]

@ Octoknightx ...

 

Overall, your central thesis is logical albeit unconventional - at least to the "gaming purist" ...

 

However ... wouldn't the recent Breeding Grounds Clan/Alliance competition constitute a fatal refutation to your view with respect to Warframe?

Edited July 12, 2014 by ElHefe

[Wahooo]

You would need to read the whole thing to know that he praised Warframe for not being P2W.

No I got that from the first line.

It started reading like a response to claims that warframe is pay to win, but it devolved from there and that is where I blah blah blah'd till the end where he demands I stop saying P2W because it doesn't exist.

 

So yeah, i'm wondering why the thread was made other than to get the idea out that he doesn't like the term pay to win.  Well i've played a lot of games that are called pay to win when they are not and I agree it is annoying, but i've also played blatant P2W games so I simply disagree that the term is wrong.

[Zaresin]

P2W is paying for an advantage, for example, paying for Loki Prime. It gives you an advantage over regular Lokis and over people that have to farm for it.

Lmao how is it an advantage if free players can get the exact same thing. Your understanding if P2W Is lacking in even the basic understanding.

The only way your example would qualify for pay to win is if non payers could not get Loki prime in any way except through prime access. That is the only way warframe would be considered pay to win.

(Or if they buffed the founders items as you could only get them through paying. But as they are currently junk compared to even some of the older items, that argument wouldn't even work. )

Edited July 12, 2014 by Zaresin

[SirAuron]

These p2win arguments always go no where. No side shall falter or see any light so why bother. People sure love to argue over nothing.

[TheGuy08]

Late response but P2W isn't really all that hard to explain.

 

P2W is basically when you are forced to dish out real money because a specific item that is better than other items is locked away behind a pay wall. the items can vary but anything from a potion to a weapon that gives a a significant advantage where there is no feasible and reliable way of getting it beside paying out your own real money is P2W.

 

You can dress it many ways and add all the grey in the world but any game that allows you access to its item mall through in game resources (trade) in not p2w. It really isn't complex. If the mall has minimal effect on anything other than appearance it isn't pay to win. If the mall gives you access through in game trade it is not pay to win. If the mall says give me 5 bucks of your hard earned cash to win and that's your only option then it is pay to win. 

[Ionus]

Ok lets look at it this way. Planetside 2. Planetside 2 has guns that are obviously better and can be bought for real money. You can also buy attachments. So if some noob buys the "best"(for him) gun and buys all the attachments he wants he "could" potentially kill easier, but he doesn't simply win. There are tons of other players to deal with for just one guy with a shiny new gun to just win. He has to capture a control point in the middle of a huge battle raging, he is going to lose no matter what. Now after experience even a somewhat good player could start a new character and wreck everything in sight with stock weapons. But the problem for new players is that they don't have those "direct upgrades" like resistance to explosives or small arms(bought with in-game currency, not money) or used real money to get less recoil on their guns. But even with those upgrades you are still going to die, you will just survive ONE more bullet. Yet people love to call it pay to win. So yes players have an advantage...but it isn't pay to win.

 

Also...Blacklight: Retribution. I literally have nothing but all stock and still wreck. That is if I ever play that horrible game...( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

So maybe my post was a waste..and I shoulda just said to use a different term. Because you aren't winning. So just use pay to kill from now on or whatever sounds good.

 

That's because the default AR is notoriously the most overpowered weapon in the game.

[Somedude1000]

You cna usually obtain just about every item to make you the ultimate warrior in game, so to speak.With those items, you need little skill to take on and surpass another person who plays the game without paying, and hence can 'win'. What you described is pay to advance faster. Invariably, P2W isn't a bad thing when it isn't overdone, and DE made this game just right for it not to be P2W.

 

If you have little time on your hands tho, then this game could be considered P2W, if you bought everything you wanted with platinum. The system we have encourages even people who outright buy items to try and experience content without paying.  At least, thats what I think is going on

[Ov3rd0se]

There's nothing p2w about Warframe. Why is this thread even in existence?

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Lmao how is it an advantage if free players can get the exact same thing. Your understanding if P2W Is lacking in even the basic understanding.

The only way your example would qualify for pay to win is if non payers could not get Loki prime in any way except through prime access. That is the only way warframe would be considered pay to win.

(Or if they buffed the founders items as you could only get them through paying. But as they are currently junk compared to even some of the older items, that argument wouldn't even work. )

A paying player gets it immediately, with no effort, and with it pre-tatered. While the non-paying player is still grinding for the privelege (keys) to grind for it, they paying player is already maxing him out.  On top of that, the non paying player has to grind for a tater as well. That's not even mentioning the other stuff that comes in the package. 

 

There is a cash shop, and it changes the way you play the game. That makes it P2W.  I am not complaining, mind you.  I enjoy the game, but I wish they would change/improve their monetization strategy.