(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Exactly and a lot of his views do show his age as those views would be different if he had the experience to see that nothing about a coop game lets you "win" anything. Only thing you can win here is a beauty contest or see who is more sparkly. I don't know if you are implying I am old or a kid here. Either way, ad hominem isn't helping your argument. P2W was a term almost exclusively applied to Free-To-Play MMORPGs. Those games were also, by-in-large, primarily PvE focused games. "Winning" against another player in PvP was/is irrelevant. Any competition between players was pretty much all PvE based, such as who could get more kills/rescues in PvE, typically in leaderboards or events.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaresin Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Holy crap, so much argument over something so simple: P2W requires the advantage to be acquired only through playing, and for it to be say, a damage boost, or something that makes the player better than a non paying player (not to be confused with pay 4 convinece, I.e. slots) What he said, I'm just at work and bored and this was keeping awake....way to ruin my fun kvothe..... btw you need to get in raidcall more often....except right now...I'm at work and can't talk. I miss our arguments lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadX65 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I think your issue is that you are taking the "win" part too literally. what other definitions are there? Win verb 1.be successful or victorious in (a contest or conflict). "the Mets have won four games in a row" synonyms: take, be the victor in, be the winner of, come first in, take first prize in,triumph in, be successful in "he won the race" noun a successful result in a contest, conflict, bet, or other endeavor; a victory. "a win against Norway" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 what other definitions are there? Win verb 1.be successful or victorious in (a contest or conflict). "the Mets have won four games in a row" synonyms: take, be the victor in, be the winner of, come first in, take first prize in,triumph in, be successful in"he won the race" noun a successful result in a contest, conflict, bet, or other endeavor; a victory. "a win against Norway" literally adverb in a literal manner or sense; exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KvotheTheArcane1 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 (edited) What he said, I'm just at work and bored and this was keeping awake....way to ruin my fun kvothe..... btw you need to get in raidcall more often....except right now...I'm at work and can't talk. I miss our arguments lol Is any body even there? Every time I get on, no one is in the chat :PAnd sorry, the "WF is p2w" nonsense hurts my head. Anyone who has played a REAL p2w game can tell at a glance, WF is not p2w. Edited July 12, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaresin Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I don't know if you are implying I am old or a kid here. Either way, ad hominem isn't helping your argument. P2W was a term almost exclusively applied to Free-To-Play MMORPGs. Those games were also, by-in-large, primarily PvE focused games. "Winning" against another player in PvP was/is irrelevant. Any competition between players was pretty much all PvE based, such as who could get more kills/rescues in PvE, typically in leaderboards or events.. Something tells me you have never played TCG type games online.......suggestion...don't. If you want to see what I had to put up with just read the first response. In the top guilds you were forced to pay real money so they did well otherwise you were kicked out before the event was over and if you didn't get enough points in a certain time you were kicked before the event was over. That was true p2w. Warframe is about convenience. As all I win is my free time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDoctor33 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I personally think p2w is when players who play for free are restricted from getting something that a payed player does get. Example: Everquest 2, when they made it free to play the accounts could barely do anything. They could only wear low type of armour and weapons, they could only use a certain level of spells, they had so many number of bag slots, unless they payed for them. That is what p2w is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadX65 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Is any body even there? Every time I get on, no one is in the chat :P And sorry, the "WF is p2w" nonsense hurts my head. Anyone who has played a REAL p2w game can tell at a glance, WF is not p2w. true, like BSGO, several PW games, and various mmos focused on PvP. think Flame is vastly confusing convenience with winning, since there is nothing to win, everything you need can be obtained in game without spending anything on the game (which would make DE sad if you never spent anything) the cosmetics don't count at all as they aren't required except for sparkle factor (vampires and warframes imho shouldn't sparkle! glow maybe) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaresin Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 (edited) Is any body even there? Every time I get on, no one is in the chat :P And sorry, the "WF is p2w" nonsense hurts my head. Anyone who has played a REAL p2w game can tell at a glance, WF is not p2w. I'm in there usually on my days off and colstro is usually in there but he's being a dummy and leaving it on when he's afk so I sit there and am talking to myself like a crazy person before I realize he left it afk again. The he scares me when he says hi a couple hours later. And I've played many types of p2w games. Legend of the cryptids, reign of dragons, tera almost became a p2w with the underwhere patch as you can only get them from the cash shop but they stepped away from that when the Korean version sent even the Korean players into a hissy fit. That's just off the top of my head at 8 hours into my 12 hour shift. Edited July 12, 2014 by Zaresin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 DnF/DFO was highly P2W, and it was still one of my favorite games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadX65 Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I'm in there usually on my days off and colstro is usually in there but he's being a dummy and leaving it on when he's afk so I sit there and am talking to myself like a crazy person before I realize he left it afk again. The he scares me when he says hi a couple hours later. And I've played many types of p2w games. Legend of the cryptids, reign of dragons, tera almost became a p2w with the underwhere patch as you can only get them from the cash shop but they stepped away from that when the Korean version sent even the Korean players into a hissy fit. That's just off the top of my head at 8 hours into my 12 hour shift. it was innerwear >.< and yeah, i still think that's borderline though, as the best stuff is out of the boxes as far as i've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaresin Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 (edited) it was innerwear >.< and yeah, i still think that's borderline though, as the best stuff is out of the boxes as far as i've seen.Lol innerwear...undies....it gives me a bra same dif haha. And considering they still never brought out inner where in loot tables in that instance it is p2w. But everything else is a cosmetic and doesn't effect gameplay besides the mounts that increase out of combat regen of a certain resource. Oh I guess I can say the new crafting thingy is a pay 2 win considering the 4 layers of RNG crits you need for etching. Soooooyeah......warframe def not pay to win in the slightest by any standards of games I've played.....ugh I play too many games. Edited July 12, 2014 by Zaresin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wahooo Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 P2W was a term almost exclusively applied to Free-To-Play MMORPGs. Those games were also, by-in-large, primarily PvE focused games. "Winning" against another player in PvP was/is irrelevant. Any competition between players was pretty much all PvE based, such as who could get more kills/rescues in PvE, typically in leaderboards or events.. Was. Games and their payment models have evolved. More games are free to play with cash shops or micro-transactions than there used to be. Terms being used to describe those games need to evolve along with them. Pay2Win is about buying power. Directly having an advantage over others simply by spending money, and advantage that cannot be reached for free, or maybe theoretically possible but so out of reach they may as well be impossible. I really don't know how DesecratedFlame and Octoknightx can be polar opposite sides of an argument and both be equally wrong, but they've managed. I have not paid a dime. I have almost everything in game, MR12 and ~550 plat. I have 17 catalysts and 23 Reactors waiting for me to decide where they belong. I've built an entire Dojo on my own. I can play side by side with anyone in the game, in any mission and not feel the least bit inferior. Not having paid money has not changed the way I play in anyway. Any argument to call this game pay to win simply falls short. There is no performance difference over me that someone who paid money can have. The ONLY thing that would let someone gain any more power than I have is time. Even if they spent money, they would need to spend more time, and many have done both, even with boosters, but hell the boosters in this game don't give that much advantage directly when everything is as quick and easy to level up, and well play the game. S#&$ if anything paying for stuff in the game you skip the PLAYING part, how are you winning if you aren't even playing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 (edited) S#&$ if anything paying for stuff in the game you skip the PLAYING part, how are you winning if you aren't even playing? Sounds like you don't really like the game if it stops being fun for your after the grind. A lot of people prefer the actual gameplay with a finished character instead of grinding pointlessly. I know I would rather be playing as a level 30 tatered Frame versuse a level 3 unmodded frame. Edited July 12, 2014 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboDoge Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Hmm, i never felt that Warframe is P2W in any kind. Even when i had two frames and six weapons for months, i didnt feel less powerful than players that had everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LascarCapable Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Cleaned the thread a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wahooo Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Sounds like you don't really like the game if it stops being fun for your after the grind. A lot of people prefer the actual gameplay with a finished character instead of grinding pointlessly. I know I would rather be playing as a level 30 tatered Frame versuse a level 3 unmodded frame. That is a pretty large assumptive jump, either not reading or just putting your own thoughts between the lines and coming to a conclusion that is not there. Never said anything close to not having fun after the grind. It does keep me going sometimes but i can take breaks and come back in a week or two, I do that often and it is about the repetitive nature that does it not the grind or finishing the grind. But that also doesn't mean the collection of the parts/mods/XP isn't a large part of the game, that can also be enjoyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octoknightx Posted July 12, 2014 Author Share Posted July 12, 2014 Eh...if you read what I said...I PRAISED Warframe...I never called it p2w. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n0xi0us Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 My version of p2w applies to the players rather than the game.. in the sense that, especially when a community can agree on the scale that said term applies, in this case with Warframe being pay-for-convenience/shiny, I see the term P2W being thrown around by those who are too cheap, or are somehow justifying (with the most inane excuses for it, nonetheless) not spending a dime on a game but will gladly blow hundreds of hours of their free time on said game. But hey, this is strictly my opinion. Yes, I have spent cash on this game, but seeing the amount of hours this game has given me, it got use of my entertainment budget I put aside for my gaming habit (still cheaper than going to the movies!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khawz Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Why is everyone making such big texts? Everything in this game is accessible without real money except for some cosmetics and wepons/warframe slots, isnt as simple as that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradoxity Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Why is everyone making such big texts? Everything in this game is accessible without real money except for some cosmetics and wepons/warframe slots, isnt as simple as that? Apparently not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)IIIDevoidIII Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Why do I have to do this twice in the same thread? Desecrated is trying to change the definition of P2W also. You are making your own definition. The definition of P2W, is to buy an item that is more powerful than another person, who hadn't paid, could get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechNexus Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 (edited) Oh for- Do I really have to do this again? Okay, let's lay out what the most literal definition of pay to win is. It's combat arms when players can pay to get an upgrade, item, boost or whatever that gives them an advantage over another player that cannot be acquired for free or in a reasonable amount of time*. Regardless of "oooh but a SKILLED player can outplay them still!" excuses, an advantage is still an advantage. And besides, this argument does not factor in that the average player still feels cheated by it, and in the situation where the player with the golden gun is actually good. *XP boosts and cash boosts do not count here; their boost does not effect actual gameplay and they just get stuff a little quicker. However, games where the unlock curve is painfully long and slow without buying some kind of boost, and where vital items for whatever role are locked away behind a grindwall can still be considered pay to win (YMMV on these games though). Examples: Blacklight: Retribution, Tribes: Ascend This is what pay to win ISNT: In the case of an unlock system, the event where an item can be acquired for free, but one can spend some money to get it a bit sooner. If said item is stupidly powerful, it's not a case of pay to win, it's more a case of poor balance. I hope that cleared things up. Edited July 12, 2014 by MechNexus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shehriazad Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 (edited) WF is pay2skip...and your definition of pay2win is plain wrong...that is all. Edited July 12, 2014 by Shehriazad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warriorrogue Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 However, games where the unlock curve is painfully long and slow without buying some kind of boost, and where vital items for whatever role are locked away behind a grindwall can still be considered pay to win (YMMV on these games though). Examples: Blacklight: Retribution, Tribes: Ascend Oh jeez, 100K exp per day for weapons. IMO, warframe isn't P2W. It could be classified as event to win in the older days, but not anymore. In the future however, who knows what direction it could go. Also, P2W means that there are restrictions on non paying players that can be gotten past by paying. Not literally winning. Not the most accurate term, but it's understood See:AE games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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