Debunking The Myth That Is Pay To Win

[Sloan441]

To be considered pay-to-win, there has to be something to win.

 

In Warframe, there's no win. It's a collection game. There's no competitive aspect to speak of (yet). The only thing cash buys you in Warframe is a bit of time savings and slots for 'frames and weapons. Anything else is cosmetic and doesn't affect the game one whit. 

[VoidWraith]

I haven't seen any P2W threads in a while. Now I just see people complaining about the limited slot spaces, that's all. Not really about P2W anymore.

 

Most games start off with like 2-3 character slots (in this case, Warframe slots), and you usually have to pay to unlock more.

But the problem is that now it is about weapon slots, because people will always be willing to buy more character (Warframe slots) But to buy more weapon slots, is a bit weird. Although you can think of it as unlocking more "inventory space" it's still weird, since we can't see it as that (some/half/most of us anyway). We have unlimited resource space, but limited weapon and sentinel space.

I don't know. I play alot of MMOs, so I get it, but shooter games (FPS/TPS) is a bit different, especially in inventory space.

[Octoknightx]

I haven't seen any P2W threads in a while. Now I just see people complaining about the limited slot spaces, that's all. Not really about P2W anymore.

 

Most games start off with like 2-3 character slots (in this case, Warframe slots), and you usually have to pay to unlock more.

But the problem is that now it is about weapon slots, because people will always be willing to buy more character (Warframe slots) But to buy more weapon slots, is a bit weird. Although you can think of it as unlocking more "inventory space" it's still weird, since we can't see it as that (some/half/most of us anyway). We have unlimited resource space, but limited weapon and sentinel space.

I don't know. I play alot of MMOs, so I get it, but shooter games (FPS/TPS) is a bit different, especially in inventory space.

Well the people that do complain about slots love to call this game p2w. They lurk in the dark waiting for the moment to cause a riot.

[Beas7ie]

I played on WOW servers where you could donate 200 bucks and get all the best gear. If you had nonsense gear then no matter what your level or skill you would never deal more than a few points of damage with your best skills while they could turn around and imitative you with just a normal attack. That is pay to win and even in less extreme cases where any type of donor or market only item gives you a stat advantage and tou can never get it without donating is pay to win. Anyone who says otherwise is just in denial

[Ashnal]

You are making your own definition. The definition of P2W, is to buy an item that is more powerful than another person, who hadn't paid, could get.

I really, really hope you meant COULDN'T get.

 

*snip*

I think you're just arguing semantics here. Generally free players draw the line at anything that gives a pay player a straight up advantage in a task, while the free player cannot gain that advantage at all. This could be anything from a weapon that instakills other players in a PvP game where it usually takes much longer to kill someone, Or an ability that allows a pay player to do 90% of the damage in a boss fight ina  co-op game, causing the free player allies to feel unneeded.

 

Luckily, pay to win doesn't really exist in Warframe,since anything you can pay for you can also obtain by playing, or trading for plat, even cosmetics. Even before trading was out, the only pay to win aspect of the game was winning the badass ninja fashion contest :)

[khazlol]

Luckily, pay to win doesn't really exist in Warframe,since anything you can pay for you can also obtain by playing, or trading for plat, even cosmetics. Even before trading was out, the only pay to win aspect of the game was winning the badass ninja fashion contest :)

 

Lets not forget the prime access exclusives :P

[Ashnal]

Lets not forget the prime access exclusives :P

So Wyrm Prim and Prime laser rifle? That's pretty much the only thing I can think of from all 3 packs. Everything else of any significant in game use can be had for free. That and the Deth Machine Rifle and Sweeper are pretty competitive with it. In that case specifically, I don't see it.

 

 

Oh, and of course the Misa Syndana, that thing is OP in Tenno fashion shows :)

Edited July 12, 2014 by Ashnal

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

Play DCUO and refine your definitioon of P2W.

[Bazookagofer]

Octoknightx, on 11 Jul 2014 - 11:10 PM, said:

 

Read the parts that start with "A:" If you do you will get a relatively clear picture that warframe isn't P2W... for now. Yes there is a cash shop in which you could buy weapons but through grinding you could get the same stuff. Now in my opinion considering other games I played warframes grind is actually fairly decent. Once you get the ball rolling it gets really easy. If the grind were too suddenly turn almost impossible (as in a non paying player has a .0000000000000001% chance to get a forma drop while someone who did pay has a 30% than we would be able to accuse of P2W.) As of now though all we can accuse Warframe is of being P4C.

 

So we all know those people that like to call every game with a market p2w. Now I admit there are some games which give incredible power to players that pay, but do they win? For a game to be p2w the player would have to be able to buy something that let's him win the game. But THERE IS NO SUCH THING.

 

A:You are taking the definition too literally here. Your first mistake. The general consensus on P2W is a model which allows you to buy certain items that give you an advantage over other players who did not pay.  In some games though you can get the same items but you grind them. This is where it stops being white and black but turns more into shades of grey. If the grind is relatively small to get the same items as people who payed than the game is leaning more towards P4C(Pay for Convenience). If the grind is relatively large than you can kind of start assuming it P2W. (Hint, Warframe has a pretty big grind. But TBH now that I am doing Void missions etc I find it a lot less troubling than once I started Warframe)

 

If a player buys a gun that can kill everyone instantly it is still not p2w. It's not like the player CAN'T die. He just can kill you the moment he sees you. It isn't an instant win the game button. But it is an instant kill that guy button. But anyone with skill could kill this guy from behind.

 

A:No. But this gun gives him an enormous advantage over other players which either cannot receive the same gun or got to grind to get it. Depending on the grind it is P4C or P2W.

 

If a player buys some kind of armor than protects him from tons of damage, it is not p2w. He still isn't "winning" the game. He still needs to DO something to WIN. Anyone could just dump bullets on him and wait till he dies.

 

A:Same as above.

 

Now let's look at TF2. Some people love to call this game p2w. Now we all know that is false. The stock weapons are the BEST weapons in the game for all situations. You give up your effectiveness in one situation to specialize in another with other weapons.

 

Now there are tons of other free to play games that let you buy DIRECT UPGRADES that can murder everyone on sight. The weapon with the highest price is obviously better. Same with buying armor. You buy the highest priced armor and you clearly live longer. But this does not mean you WIN.

 

 As I said, for a game to be p2w there would have to be an item in their market that the player could use to win the game. But I have yet to even hear of such a game so p2w is a total lie.

 

A:Again you are taking the term way too literally. Kind of childish TBH.

 

Now let's look at Warframe. Warframe is mostly a co-op game with some pvp in conclaves and dojo duels and future pvp as seen in devstream. Now I will say this flat out. There is no pay to win in a co-op game, there is pay to kill everything, there is pay to last forever, but there is no pay to win. It takes some skill to win. And anyway who CARES if you bought your extreme power with money. It's not like you are harming anyone buy buying stuff. It is CO-OP.

 

A:And if PvP becomes a big part of the game people who bought forma, better weapons WILL have an advantage over someone who tries to grind the forma and catalysts. After a few months of playing I only have 3 reactored Warframes and only 1 catalyzed weapon and one heavily formad weapon.(RNG gods have not been with me lately).  Someone who uses plat might have a more guns and more warframes formad. He can also buy maxed out mods faster than me etc. This is P2W because paying money gives him a direct advantage over someone who doesn't pay. Please learn the definition.

 

So in Warframe, you can buy guns and warframes. But the guns that you can buy mostly suck except a few good ones. And you can build them all anyway. But here is the point everyone loves to point out when calling Warframe pay to win: Slots. Slots are not pay to win. Slots don't limit your ability to kill an enemy. If you want a better gun sell that Braton you got lying around and make that Penta. If you want a better warframe sell that crap Banshee you got in your closet(inb4 uwotm8bansheemasterrace ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)). And anyway with trading you can get FREE, yes FREE, platinum. I have never seen any game, EVER let you TRADE for currency that you would have to buy with real money. This is what makes Warframe so great. You want that Pyra Sugatra(Yes DE please make a Pyra Sugatra for my Dragon Nikana ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)) go sell that Heavy Caliber you found. You want a slot for Boltor Prime? Go sell your Loki Prime parts.

 

A:This still takes a while. Especially for noobs who don't got enough of the good stuff to take on the bigger stuff that gives you the ability to farm. 

 

So even if paying gave you unlimited power you are never UNBEATABLE. Companies that love to sell power like to make it seem like the players can still win without paying to keep their players from rioting. So they limit the power you can buy as close as they can to the line of literally paying to win the game but they don't cross it. So please, NEVER EVER CALL A GAME PAY TO WIN. Sure a game me be horribly unfair but you are using the wrong term. The right term would be pay to wreck or pay to kill, etc.

 

A:Again you are misinterpreting the wildy used term PW2 to justify... I don't even know what. I have a gut feeling you just spent 1000$ on this game and maxed out everything... Are you having a guilt trip now?

 

So please...no more pay to win. Thank you and goodnight.

 

A:Thank you and goodnight.

 

Edited July 12, 2014 by Bazookagofer

[Trajhenkhetlive]

Pay to win is pretty simple and it exists. You see very few games are actually stage locked as the OP gave as an example. Paying to unlock later stages or beating the game by just paying rarely exists. That's true. However, that does not mean pay to win doesn't exist. In fact marketing gave it a more consumer sounding friendly name and stole the term F2P. So you have a bunch of P2W in the guise of F2P.

 

Any cellphone game that has in game market items that can only be bought with "hard currency" (currency that can only be purchased with money and cannot be earned in game) is P2W. To not buy these items in games would limit how far one got in the game or make certain stages impossible to beat without them. Also a common development mistake is to make the pay market items so powerful to beat the impossible stage that it's game breaking to equip and use. Sometimes the stages are just straight up so ridiculous hard that even pay for items won't do the trick just to get you to front more money on extra gear like health and bullets or stage items.

 

Now that doesn't mean all F2P games are P2W. Warframe is not P2W. Simply because there is no set of non cosmetice in game items that have to be bought with "hard currency" (platinum). All non cosmetic gear can be earned with enough reasonable grinding. The platinum just saves you some time with gear. You'll need it to keep a store of items or bling out the suit, but the price for slots is low.

 

P2W is here, no company will call it that for sales reasons, but they will cheerfully hide behind F2P with an in game caveat.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Trajhenkhetlive

[VoidWraith]

Well the people that do complain about slots love to call this game p2w. They lurk in the dark waiting for the moment to cause a riot.

 

Uhm.... well.... I don't really see what they're winning... besides the arcane helms? Everything else in Warframe is just cosmetic. Mods aren't actually impossible to get, just hard (to the point of suicidal), that's all.....

 

Boosters? A lot of MMOs have those.

The "potatos" and formas? Ehh... it's not like you'll be forma'ing and potato'ing everything. Just the ones you like. And there are alerts, devstreams, prime times, that make these "potatos" appear more often then alerts. Formas? Void runs, or sometimes alerts. It's basically about patience, which not a lot of people have.

 

Trading is supposed to alleviate some of the problems, but it doesn't. Not really. Why? A lot of people most likely already have the mods that new players have. They only go after rare ones or maxed out rank 10 mods... or perhaps blueprints from the void that are hard to get.

 

Basically you either have to be patient (spend time) or pay to get what you want faster (money). Of course there are always the hardcore F2P'ers that laugh at the idea, especially those that say "they don't have time".

 

But eh, w/e.

[Clasbyte]

Every weapon, armor, mod or anything else for that matter in warframe can be achieved with playtime alone. Only exception is vanity items therfore no pay to win here even if there would be an pvp/competitiv part of warframe.

[Nachoguy5]

If there are weapons in game that are objectively better than weapons that can be earned, but can only be purchased with IRL money, then the game becomes P2W. Warframe stands out because you can simply craft nearly any weapon or frame in game. The purchase only items so far are things like cosmetics and the like, which is fortunate because I'm sure if there were frames or weapons that were purchase only people would flip a *@##$.