A Potentially Good Idea To Make Damage-Dealing Warframe Powers Useful

[Renegade343]

Hello all, 

 

This thread will detail a small modification to all damage-dealing Warframe powers so that the damage would scale for quite a bit. The content is below: 

 

Now most people who have realised damage-dealing Warframe powers would become quite obsolete at high levels, especially those without utility. Thus, to make them useful again, my suggestion is to create a hybrid of both flat damage and scaling damage. An example is below: 

 

Assume there is a Warframe power called 'X'. When used, X deals 200 damage to an enemy (can be increased by mods). However, if the enemy does not die from the 200 damage, then X will also deal 50% of said enemy's maximum health (known as percentage additional damage [PAD] in this thread), meaning if an enemy with hitpoints of 500 is targeted by this power, X will deal: 

 

200 + (500 * 0.5) = 450 damage. 

 

This will allow damage-dealing Warframe powers to scale to enemy health, and in extension, enemy level, allowing them to be useful in all situations.

 

Based on various members' feedback, I will now add an additional thing: 

 

All enemies without armour will make the damage-dealing Warframe power deal its initial damage and the PAD, where PAD for this is 2% ≤ PAD ≤ 7.5%. A sample calculation is below: 

 

Warframe power X deals 250 damage to an enemy of 500 hitpoints. Enemy does not die, and it has no armour. The PAD of X against enemies with no armour is 4%. Thus, the total damage is: 

 

250 + (500 * 0.04) = 270

 

All enemies with armour will make the damage-dealing Warframe power deal its initial damage and the PAD, where PAD for this is 10% ≤ PAD ≤ 20%. A sample calculation is below: 

 

Warframe power X deals 250 damage to an enemy of 500 hitpoints. Enemy does not die, and it has armour. The PAD of X against enemies with armour is 15%. Thus, the total damage is: 

 

250 + (500 * 0.15) = 325

 

The PAD can be increased or decreased by Warframe Power Strength mods to the above caps, one for enemies without armour and one for enemies with armour (Warframe Power Strength mods is multiplicative). That means for all damage-dealing Warframe powers that will be changed to this proposal, the PAD at max rank would be low enough to make Warframe Power Strength Mods useful, but high enough to make itself useful. 

 

With this change, I hope to provide a potent alternative to fix damage-dealing Warframe powers. 

 

Please take the time to read it, and give any constructive feedback and criticism. 

 

Renegade343

 

To see my other threads, please go to my profile.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Renegade343

[Althix]

no.

problem is not in damage powers, to be more clear not in the amount of damage these powers set to deliver.

 

problem is in scaling.

[Hayzemet]

I really think that would op, maybe current health

[Renegade343]

I really think that would op, maybe current health

Enemy health scales exponentially by quite a bit, and I do want the damage from the power to kill something at high levels. Having it deal additional based on the enemy's current health would just lessen the problem by a small degree. 

[(PSN)CrimsonShinku]

i suggested something similar a while back, however not all powers can run off the same PAD, a good example is ember's world on fire who hits 3 times or so per second, which means every 2 seconds there's 3 dead enemies. compare it to something like oberon's finisher and you see the problem.

 

it'd require fine tuning for each warframe, but i also do think this is the way to go with warframe skills

[Renegade343]

i suggested something similar a while back, however not all powers can run off the same PAD, a good example is ember's world on fire who hits 3 times or so per second, which means every 2 seconds there's 3 dead enemies. compare it to something like oberon's finisher and you see the problem.

 

it'd require fine tuning for each warframe, but i also do think this is the way to go with warframe skills

Which is why I left out that part for now, since I have not yet analysed the powers to set a justifiable PAD for each of them. 

[RoboticApplesWithLasers]

then it would not matter how much damage it deals

if X deals 200 damage vs a 10k hp ancient than the ancient will be a lil lower than half health.(200+(9800/2)) the ancient will have 4700 hp left

if it deals 1k damage than the ancient will have 9k left making it deal 5.5k damage total. ancient will have 4500 hp left. a difference of 800 damage is quartered by this system. 

why not have abilities deal in % of health(I.E. by default excal's slash dash will deal 1/2 enemies health and 1/4 heavy enemies health( ancients, heavy grineer, large MOA's)  this % of health upgraded by mods (to 1 hitting all normal enemy types)

[Renegade343]

then it would not matter how much damage it deals

if X deals 200 damage vs a 10k hp ancient than the ancient will be a lil lower than half health.(200+(9800/2)) the ancient will have 4700 hp left

if it deals 1k damage than the ancient will have 9k left making it deal 5.5k damage total. ancient will have 4500 hp left. a difference of 800 damage is quartered by this system. 

why not have abilities deal in % of health(I.E. by default excal's slash dash will deal 1/2 enemies health and 1/4 heavy enemies health( ancients, heavy grineer, large MOA's)  this % of health upgraded by mods (to 1 hitting all normal enemy types)

The initial damage is meant for lower levels (just kill). The PAD is meant to scale with higher levels, and make the damage dealing Warframe powers more useful.

[RoboticApplesWithLasers]

The initial damage is meant for lower levels (just kill). The PAD is meant to scale with higher levels, and make the damage dealing Warframe powers more useful.

so why not just have the PAD, initial damage doesnt seem to have much of a purpose beyond setting a baseline for the PAD in your system.

[OptimumBow0]

so why not just have the PAD, initial damage doesnt seem to have much of a purpose beyond setting a baseline for the PAD in your system.

You can never, ever kill an enemy at low level if you're always only doing 75% damage.

 

Ever.

 

Edit: As in, there's less fun abusing powers and all it serves to do is clarify Einstein's Theory of Relativity.

Edited July 14, 2014 by OptimumBow0

[Renegade343]

so why not just have the PAD, initial damage doesnt seem to have much of a purpose beyond setting a baseline for the PAD in your system.

Just having the PAD means even a low level enemy would survive from the damage. 

 

As most damage-dealing Warframe powers are meant to kill, that is the reason why I left the initial damage in, so that enemies can actually be killed from the powers. 

[(PSN)CrimsonShinku]

just to mention, this is the same damage model used by summons in the golden sun series. against your common enemy they seem a bit meh and underpowered, but when you drop the summons on the bosses with thousands of HP, the damage done in one turn is exceptional.

 

http://goldensun.wikia.com/wiki/Summon

[Renegade343]

just to mention, this is the same damage model used by summons in the golden sun series. against your common enemy they seem a bit meh and underpowered, but when you drop the summons on the bosses with thousands of HP, the damage done in one turn is exceptional.

 

http://goldensun.wikia.com/wiki/Summon

I have not played that game, but I see the formula looks viable. 

[Renegade343]

no.

problem is not in damage powers, to be more clear not in the amount of damage these powers set to deliver.

 

problem is in scaling.

This proposal is meant to target the problems of scaling for flat damage dealing Warframe powers, if DE(L) continues to keep the enemy scaling mechanism. 

 

If DE(L) scraps the enemy scaling mechanism, this will not be needed. 

[Moderius]

This is an idea I suggested a long while ago, although a portion of the ability's damage scaled with things like your max health, your target's max health in a much, much smaller %, or a percent of the target's missing health or current health.

 

So, yeah. 

[RealPandemonium]

Ability damage is mostly OK; it's Grineer armor scaling that's a pain in the &#! in the later levels.  Infinite content is irrelevant, as always. 

[Renegade343]

Ability damage is mostly OK; it's Grineer armor scaling that's a pain in the @$$ in the later levels.  Infinite content is irrelevant, as always. 

Which is the problem in higher levels with Corpus, Grineer and Infested as well (exponentially increasing shields, health and armour). This solution is meant to target that problem, unless DE(L) scraps this mechanic for another one. 

[RealPandemonium]

Which is the problem in higher levels with Corpus, Grineer and Infested as well (exponentially increasing shields, health and armour). This solution is meant to target that problem, unless DE(L) scraps this mechanic for another one. 

Only Grineer HP scales exponentially due to scaling armor values.  Corpus health and shield values scale linearly, as do Infested health values.  This means that Infested and Corpus HP never reach a problem point in intended level ranges but Grineer in the upper intended range become stupidly durable unless you're using an overtuned weapon outfitted with the right element combo.  The fact that weapon damage become excessive with enough mods is a bandaid that hides the true issue when it comes to Grineer durability scaling. 

[Renegade343]

Only Grineer HP scales exponentially due to scaling armor values.  Corpus health and shield values scale linearly, as do Infested health values.  This means that Infested and Corpus HP never reach a problem point in intended level ranges but Grineer in the upper intended range become stupidly durable unless you're using an overtuned weapon outfitted with the right element combo.  The fact that weapon damage become excessive with enough mods is a bandaid that hides the true issue when it comes to Grineer durability scaling. 

I think Corpus health/shields and Infested health do not go at a linear scale, since the formula (if I recall correctly) for calculating enemy health and shields for a certain level is BaseHP * (1 + [CurrentLvl - SpawnLvl])^0.4, which means as the levels go higher, the effective health will have a greater rate of change. That means flat damage will fall off quite badly at high levels. 

[RealPandemonium]

I think Corpus health/shields and Infested health do not go at a linear scale, since the formula (if I recall correctly) for calculating enemy health and shields for a certain level is BaseHP * (1 + [CurrentLvl - SpawnLvl])^0.4, which means as the levels go higher, the effective health will have a greater rate of change. That means flat damage will fall off quite badly at high levels. 

Contrary to what you have suggested, that formula means that HP increases less with each additional level.

HP = BaseHP * (1 + [CurrentLvl - SpawnLvl])^0.4 Heavy Gunner HP Progression L8 = 300 * (1 + [8 - 8])^0.4 = 300 L9 = 300 * (1 + [9 - 8])^0.4 = 396 = +96 L10 = 300 * (1 + [10 - 8])^0.4 = 466 = +70 L11 = 300 * (1 + [11 - 8])^0.4 = 522 = +56 L12 = 300 * (1 + [12 - 8])^0.4 = 571 = +49 L13 = 300 * (1 + [13 - 8])^0.4 = 614 = +43 L14 = 300 * (1 + [14 - 8])^0.4 = 653 = +39 etc.....

So while their HP does go up every level, they get less and less of an increase as levels go up which is the opposite of what you suggest.

 

However, because Grineer have armor that also scales up with level, the multiplicative result of armor and health both scaling up creates exponential effective HP scaling.

Edited July 15, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[Renegade343]

Contrary to what you have suggested, that formula means that HP increases less with each additional level.

HP = BaseHP * (1 + [CurrentLvl - SpawnLvl])^0.4 Heavy Gunner HP Progression L8 = 300 * (1 + [8 - 8])^0.4 = 300 L9 = 300 * (1 + [9 - 8])^0.4 = 396 = +96 L10 = 300 * (1 + [10 - 8])^0.4 = 466 = +70 L11 = 300 * (1 + [11 - 8])^0.4 = 522 = +56 L12 = 300 * (1 + [12 - 8])^0.4 = 571 = +49 L13 = 300 * (1 + [13 - 8])^0.4 = 614 = +43 L14 = 300 * (1 + [14 - 8])^0.4 = 653 = +39 etc.....

So while their HP does go up every level, they get less and less of an increase as levels go up which is the opposite of what you suggest.

But you forgot to factor in a few things: 

 

Corpus: Shields also go up as well, so that means there will still be quite an effect. 

Grineer: Armour increases (meaning damage reduction increases). 

Infested: Has a lot of health in the first place. 

[RealPandemonium]

But you forgot to factor in a few things: 

 

Corpus: Shields also go up as well, so that means there will still be quite an effect. 

Grineer: Armour increases (meaning damage reduction increases). 

Infested: Has a lot of health in the first place. 

Corpus and Infested durability scales normally, but Grineer durability increases exponentially due to the multiplication of armor and health values.  That makes Grineer much, much, more durable than Infested and Corpus of similar level as you get up in levels.  It's also worth noting that Corpus shields can be bypassed by Toxin damage and nullified by Magnetic procs.  By comparison nothing can bypass Grineer armor except Slash procs and Finisher damage; Corrosive damage also requires many consecutive procs to completely strip a unit's armor and it gains no damage bonus vs Alloy. 

[Renegade343]

Corpus and Infested durability scales normally, but Grineer durability increases exponentially due to the multiplication of armor and health values.  That makes Grineer much, much, more durable than Infested and Corpus of similar level as you get up in levels.  It's also worth noting that Corpus shields can be bypassed by Toxin damage and nullified by Magnetic procs.  By comparison nothing can bypass Grineer armor except Slash procs and Finisher damage; Corrosive damage also requires many consecutive procs to completely strip a unit's armor and it gains no damage bonus vs Alloy. 

The health still goes up no matter what, and that will still make damage-dealing Warframe powers useless at high levels. With the proposal, at least it can scale to enemy health to make it viable in all levels, like utility-based powers. 

[taiiat]

you're expecting Offensive Powers to do 50% of the Enemies' Health in Damage at all Levels?

 

you're crazy.

 

people that are pushing this style of change are hoping for 5%, and even that might be aiming too high to get implemented.

 

 

even a 100E Power dealing 50% of the Enemies' Health would be pretty ridiculous, especially since that means attacking an Enemy twice at ANY Level kills them.

 

 

Edit:

also, someone else that understands that Grineer and Corrupted are the only Enemies that matter, and Corpus and Infested get rekd at all Levels, omaigud finally.

for some reason i got really excited to see that there are infact some people that understand the scaling problem of two of the 4 factions. and lack of scaling in the other two.

Edited July 15, 2014 by taiiat

[Renegade343]

you're expecting Offensive Powers to do 50% of the Enemies' Health in Damage at all Levels?

 

you're crazy.

 

people that are pushing this style of change are hoping for 5%, and even that might be aiming too high to get implemented.

 

 

even a 100E Power dealing 50% of the Enemies' Health would be pretty ridiculous, especially since that means attacking an Enemy twice at ANY Level kills them.

 

 

Edit:

also, someone else that understands that Grineer and Corrupted are the only Enemies that matter, and Corpus and Infested get rekd at all Levels, omaigud finally.

for some reason i got really excited to see that there are infact some people that understand the scaling problem of two of the 4 factions. and lack of scaling in the other two.

As I said from the topic itself, that was an example just to show the calculations (and that the minimum-maximum thing is just an example of a limit). 

 

And for the record, Corpus and Infested do not get wrecked at all levels. 

 

And this solution is meant to target the current problem for scaling in terms of health, nothing more. If the scaling is gone, this is not needed. 

Edited July 15, 2014 by Renegade343