Marelok?

[Arabaxus]

Can it be considered the best Clan-Tech Secondary?

 

Plus do you think its overpowered?

[WarGrylls]

Nice secondary, yes. Over powered, no. reasons being:

 

*high impact and slash, but low puncture... good luck wasting 40% of the void that hurt the hardest (im saying the grineer part just to be clear)

*grinlok to marelok meant higher dmg/shot but gained small-moderate inaccuracy and recoil... gotta aim just right and pace it well to be consistent

*reload time is long and yet somewhat tolerable, but still an issue when at high levels and you wonder if you should sacrifice dmg/shot for sustained dps (I'd complain about the mag size but the brakk is at a 5, sssooo moving on)

 

We can reference dpsframe and warframebuilder but I'd rather boil it down to whats in-game and what said person can do with said gun/s. The brakk can melt face in one second/shot and can deliver it in spades, making it the best side for a frame that is tank-y enough to take enemy fire while closing in, whereas the Marelok can be best for more fragile frame or slower frame that have dodging troubles(range=safety)

 

Putting the Sicarus Prime in comparison will be a look at accuracy and sustained dps and chances are that more sicarus prime rounds will hit an enemy more often with the 3-round burst and will maintain their dps better than the marelok due to a bigger mag and lighter recoil between each shot in the bursts whereas the marelok has to POP once and then either drop its recoil, or we personally have to lower our aim as we are rapid firing, making for some inaccuracy in both ways(that one reason said before). The gun also has a better puncture rating and more balanced to effectively damage all three factions in the void(keep saying void for a more balance endgame survival scenario).

 

Saying all of that, I am saying that the marelok's fine, and if the brakk hasn't been nerfed again, then it is even more fine and its a playstyle choice. You wanna melt a face faster then sunlight to a doll with a magnify glass on x64-fast-forward? You want a Brakk maybe. You want to try a 1-shot pop'n'drop from a distance? Marelok maybe. Stable deeps for any cas-- you see what i'm saying. 

 

You can make up for its weaknesses and bring a good puncture primary though(I like my Paris Prime lots, but ... >.> ... yeah, you can Pr.Boltor it and ruin the fun of a well-placed, satisfying shot that knocks foes back like a javelin just lifted weights like a bawsh and named them "k.i.a. 1,2,10,15+").

 

I hope this helped in any way, OP.

[Ribboz]

First off you're covering a lot of different semi unrelated topics.

No, he is correct. A firearm with less DPH, but more ROF is worse than a firearm with more DPH, but less ROF if that weapon with more DPH also does more DPS.

I suppose that's correct. But not entirely relevant since I was arguing against basing judgment because of one variable, so you just picked another to judge it solely on one variable.

 

All sub-machine guns (machine guns that use pistol ammo) are unviable because they run out of ammo versus one horde and do less DPS than semi-automatics.

 

Assault rifles (machine guns that use rifle ammo) are able to remain somewhat viable because ammo is alot more plentiful and most of them deal more DPS except to the Latron Prime.

In this instance what you're arguing against is an ammo issue and not the guns fault. Like I have stated before.

 

Back on topic. The Marelok is not OP. Sure it's good. Maybe raise its Mastery if anything. Sure it's ammo efficient but most single shooters are. Being ammo efficient makes it good but not OP.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Ribboz

[TisForTat]

First off you're covering a lot of different semi unrelated topics.

I suppose that's correct. But not entirely relevant since I was arguing against basing judgment because of one variable, so you just picked another to judge it solely on one variable.

 

In this instance what you're arguing against is an ammo issue and not the guns fault. Like I have stated before.

 

Back on topic. The Marelok is not OP. Sure it's good. Maybe raise its Mastery if anything. Sure it's ammo efficient but most single shooters are. Being ammo efficient makes it good but not OP.

 

If we were to define any sidearm OP, there is only one that truly deserves such a title. That would be the Brakk even after the nerfs. The Marelok is not OP so much as most other pistols are just underpowered. Some in particular are just garbage. The clan tech required Spectra for example. It is the worst of the worst sub-machine guns and sub-machine guns are already terrible.

 

News flash, a gun is as important as the bullets you shoot in it. No ammo means no damage so you better starting learning how to pistol whip because at that point there is nothing better you can do with that firearm. That is why sub-machine guns are not viable in Warframe, but that is only one issue. The other issue is most other pistols such as semi-automatics currently out DPS sub-machine guns using significantly less ammo. When such a thing occurs, that means one weapon out classes another.

 

Unless you are a masochist or you are role playing (some players might want to roleplay a spec ops for example), you are generally not going to use a gun that is less ammo efficient AND does less DPS.

Edited July 17, 2014 by TisForTat

[Grulos]

It's not the gun that's OP. It's the MODS. 

 

Gun's don't kill everything, tenno kill everything. 

Without the super-high base stats of the Marelok, the mods would not do much.

[Bob_Ross]

The Marelok stands out because it's strong weapon overall, it's accurate enough to pop people from a distance, and it's great for status and damage.

EDIT: The Marelok's recoil is not a problem. It's easy to control, and easy enough to make full use of the fire rate.

 

But, DE's weapon balance is currently pretty horrible, weapons that consume a lot of ammo usually won't last as long as with weapons that are ammo efficient, because they either run out of ammo, or require you to sacrifice a mod in order to add an ammo mutation. But with a more ammo efficient weapon, you can continue using it without ever running out of ammo and you don't need to sacrifice a mod slot to maintain ammo either.

 

This would however, be in a reversed role if ammo boxes were still here, as so high RoF weapons can maintain fire and just pop a box to refill.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Bob_Ross

[Darzk]

I suppose that's correct. But not entirely relevant since I was arguing against basing judgment because of one variable, so you just picked another to judge it solely on one variable.

In this instance what you're arguing against is an ammo issue and not the guns fault. Like I have stated before.

Ammo Efficiency, whether the fault of the gun or the ammo drop mechanic, is still a relevant factor when comparing weapons. If the DPS was the same, ammo efficiency makes it better. Agreed that on it's own efficiency wouldn't make something OP - what makes the Marelok very powerful is the damage per shot, or instantaneous DPS. If the Marelok used two ammo per shot, making the efficiency the same, it would still be better than something firing twice as fast but half as much damage.

 

The ability to take out a heavy in a single shot is what makes Brakk and Marelok so attractive. Doing so means that they are dead right away, and can't fire back, as opposed to dead in a second or so and having the opportunity to let off a few rounds. The other weapons you compare to do ~60% of the damage per shot of the Marelok, and only the Akbolto has significantly more burst and that requires a firing macro and pretty good mouse control to handle the recoil, plus the projectiles have travel time. Detron is a shotgun pistol, so its damage gets worse at range (spread, not falloff) and has travel time as well. Sicarus Prime, the closest in terms of mechanics, actually has far less DPS than shown and still does less than 60% of the damage per trigger pull that Marelok does.

 

Edit:

The closest true comparison you can make is to the Lex Prime, which as a prime weapon can't be bought and is locked behind a grind wall. You'd expect it to be better, but it still does around 70% per shot of the damage done by Marelok. Admittedly it has better accuracy, and the higher crit gives it a better headshot modifier (it does 2.88x instead of 2.3x, so an extra 25% when making headshots). It will get around 88.5% of the damage of Marelok when making headshots - still worse and it's got a longer reload.

 

40-70% better than comparable weapons and easy enough to obtain is OP in my book.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Darzk

[TisForTat]

Ammo Efficiency, whether the fault of the gun or the ammo drop mechanic, is still a relevant factor when comparing weapons. If the DPS was the same, ammo efficiency makes it better. Agreed that on it's own efficiency wouldn't make something OP - what makes the Marelok very powerful is the damage per shot, or instantaneous DPS. If the Marelok used two ammo per shot, making the efficiency the same, it would still be better than something firing twice as fast but half as much damage.

 

The ability to take out a heavy in a single shot is what makes Brakk and Marelok so attractive. Doing so means that they are dead right away, and can't fire back, as opposed to dead in a second or so and having the opportunity to let off a few rounds. The other weapons you compare to do ~60% of the damage per shot of the Marelok, and only the Akbolto has significantly more burst and that requires a firing macro and pretty good mouse control to handle the recoil, plus the projectiles have travel time. Detron is a shotgun pistol, so its damage gets worse at range (spread, not falloff) and has travel time as well. Sicarus Prime, the closest in terms of mechanics, actually has far less DPS than shown and still does less than 60% of the damage per trigger pull that Marelok does.

 

Actually the Detron has projectile speed that is so fast that it could even be mistaken for hit scan by an untrained eye and secondly you do not need macro to use semi-automatics like Akbolto at full speed, just decent FPS which is easily feasible with dedicated hardware. Other than that I agree on your critique of Ribbo.

[Darzk]

you do not need macro to use semi-automatics like Akbolto at full speed

 

Your trigger finger is the relic of a god, then. I can't pull more than about 7 c/s unaided, and even then lose mouse stability.

 

Haven't used the Detron in ages so I suppose that's possible. My bad. Still a factor, if less significant.

[Ribboz]

I feel like you guys are purposely missing the point of everything I said.

 

I never said ammo efficiency wasn't important. I said it was ONE factor in balance. You can't focus on just ONE variable for comparison and say something is better than the other. The ammo system in this game has been broken for a long time. Others have discussed it many times already. 

 

Having the Marelok be ammo efficient does not make it OP. But at the same time is an over all good gun. So I would compromise at a mastery increase if absolutely needed.

 

I've already shown it's balanced with other guns and explained my points twice.

 

Once DE fixes the the broken ammo system then it will be much easier to balance high rate of fire guns with low rate of fire guns. So lets move on from the ammo issue that you are all focusing so heavily on.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Ribboz

[Darzk]

I've already shown it's balanced with other guns and explained my points twice.

 

Actually, you didnt. You showed a few links to other weapons, all of which have far less damage/shot and less burst DPS, and all of which have significant differences in gameplay (spread, travel time, range issues, etc) and some of which are harder to obtain.

 

Marelok still does ~40-70% more damage than any other weapon like it. It's easy to obtain, and its ammo efficient. It's hitscan (no travel time), reasonably accurate (compared to a pocket shotty) and doesn't have an awful reload (compared to Lex series). The combination of all those factors, not just the efficiency, makes it a really powerful weapon.

[Ribboz]

Actually, you didnt. You showed a few links to other weapons, all of which have far less damage/shot and less burst DPS, and all of which have significant differences in gameplay (spread, travel time, range issues, etc) and some of which are harder to obtain.

 

Marelok still does ~40-70% more damage than any other weapon like it. It's easy to obtain, and its ammo efficient. It's hitscan (no travel time), reasonably accurate (compared to a pocket shotty) and doesn't have an awful reload (compared to Lex series). The combination of all those factors, not just the efficiency, makes it a really powerful weapon.

Did you even click those links? They're builds I made to use for comparison.

 

Here I laid it out nice and easy for you since you don't feel like actually looking at the info I gave you.

Marelok:

5393.92 total damage

17260.54 burst dps

11631.09 sustained dps

 

Sicarus Prime:

3161.08 total damage

25288.64 burst dps

11230.30 sustained dps

 

Detron:

3333.96 total damage

17603.31 burst dps

11463.90 sustained dps

 

As you can see here the Sicarus Prime actually beats it in burst DPS as it should being a burst weapon. And the detron as similar stats when looking at burst and sustained. I realize I'm comparing it to high tier weapons. But I have extensive experience with all three. As I said before I would compromise at a mastery increase but that's it. Give the Marelok hands on time, and you will see it lasts about as long as the Sicarus Prime in endless void.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Ribboz

[Darzk]

As you can see here the Sicarus Prime actually beats it in burst DPS as it should being a burst weapon. And the detron as similar stats when looking at burst and sustained.

 

As we have told you many times, the builder and all other tools do not calculate burst or sustained DPS properly for burstfire weapons. The only comparison you can accurately make is damage/trigger pull, of which Marelok has ~70% more damage.

 

Detron has spread, travel time, and a base of Radiation which makes it significantly different in use, efficacy and proc builds. 

[Ribboz]

As we have told you many times, the builder and all other tools do not calculate burst or sustained DPS properly for burstfire weapons. The only comparison you can accurately make is damage/trigger pull, of which Marelok has ~70% more damage.

 

Detron has spread, travel time, and a base of Radiation which makes it significantly different in use, efficacy and proc builds. 

I'm pretty sure that was only said once. And I'm not entirely convinced.

 

Geezuz man. These guns are suppose to be different. If you keep saying that then we will never find balance.

 

Edit: also the Marelok should do more damage per shot and It's not 70% more like you're saying.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Ribboz

[Ribboz]

Well after comparing my stats on warframe builder to the stats on http://dpsframe.com/ I will admit the stats on the Sicarus prime are probably off. But the stats on Deton, akbolto, akmagnus, and Akvasto prove my points. Gahd we cant even include the brakk. lol

[Darzk]

Gahd we cant even include the brakk. lol

Of course not. Its a shotgun with falloff damage, a completely different weapon. 

 

Really, we can only compare it to the Lex Prime, anything else is gonna have significantly different characteristics. And even then LP is only pulling about 88% of the damage of Marelok, making headshots; and while its got more accuracy it's got a longer reload, resulting in considerably less sustained.

 

You can't 'balance' different categories of weapons. A shotgun is going to do more damage than a rifle mechanic, because its got the drawback of range-reduction. A fast firing semi-auto is going to have great burst with a click macro because it normally is restricted by manual click rate. And a Sniper style pistol like the Lex Prime has a long reload. 

 

What drawback does the Marelok have? It's got the highest damage/shot of all the pistols (at range) but no significant weakness. 

 

5394/3161 = 170.6% damage.

[Ribboz]

Of course not. Its a shotgun with falloff damage, a completely different weapon. 

 

Really, we can only compare it to the Lex Prime, anything else is gonna have significantly different characteristics. And even then LP is only pulling about 88% of the damage of Marelok, making headshots; and while its got more accuracy it's got a longer reload, resulting in considerably less sustained.

 

You can't 'balance' different categories of weapons. A shotgun is going to do more damage than a rifle mechanic, because its got the drawback of range-reduction. A fast firing semi-auto is going to have great burst with a click macro because it normally is restricted by manual click rate. And a Sniper style pistol like the Lex Prime has a long reload. 

 

What drawback does the Marelok have? It's got the highest damage/shot of all the pistols (at range) but no significant weakness. 

 

5394/3161 = 170.6% damage.

This is part of what I have been arguing for. We have a game where we have different weapons but people feel the need to compare them. So we are left needing to balance completely different weapons. I'm trying to in the fairest way possibly balance completely different weapons that still hang onto their unique qualities. Do you want a game where every weapons serves the same function and does the same damage? No, of course you don't. So we must balance completely different weapons. Many many games have to do this.

 

About The lex/lex prime. I've felt for a long time that it's needed a buff. For it's kick and long reload it should be buff. Also adding in the work needed for the trouble it takes to earn it.

 

Threads like this and people like you are why we can't have nice things in this game. There is a very vocal part of the community who just wants to nerf everything into the ground. And I feel like I have to fight every single day just to slow their conquest.

 

I'm really trying to compromise here. Increase Marelok mastery and Buff Lex prime's damage. Is that enough to stop this?

 

Edit: also about the drawbacks. What about Sicarus prime and the Detron. They're also a fairly balance guns. Is it wrong that it doesn't have any draw backs? Must everything have a draw back? No. We're talking about Top tier guns here.

 

Edit: Also lol you bring up the 70% deal right after you say we can only compare it to the lexs. You're just trying to hang onto anything that fits your side.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Ribboz

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

@Ribboz

 

Stating statistical facts is not the same as calling for a nerf.

[Ribboz]

@Ribboz

 

Stating statistical facts is not the same as calling for a nerf.

You realize that I am the one stating statistical facts.

 

Edit: other than Darzk's 70% deal the rest of this thread is based solely on opinion.

  Edited July 18, 2014 by Ribboz

[Naftal]

@Darzk: How do you have the patience?

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

@Ribboz

 

Just because you use statistics does not make them facts.  Darzk already proved how your burst and sustained values were flawed and then supported his own claim that the Marelok does 70% more damage.  What are you even trying to argue at this point?

Edited July 18, 2014 by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph

[Darzk]

 

About The lex/lex prime. I've felt for a long time that it's needed a buff. For it's kick and long reload it should be buff. Also adding in the work needed for the trouble it takes to earn it.

 

Threads like this and people like you are why we can't have nice things in this game. There is a very vocal part of the community who just wants to nerf everything into the ground. And I feel like I have to fight every single day just to slow their conquest.

 

Edit: Also lol you bring up the 70% deal right after you say we can only compare it to the lexs. You're just trying to hang onto anything that fits your side.

 

Lex Prime is rather balanced, imo. Could use a few tweaks, but as-is it's a balance of damage for a loss in utility, and we can work with that. DE has stated that they want weapons to be structured in tiers, but Marelok breaks that structure by being more powerful than the rough Prime equivalent. It's not the first weapon to do so, but it lacks a unique mechanic or Mastery lockout that the other weapons do. 

 

The problem is in the release of new weapons. The next heavy/sniper/slug pistol that's released will either be worse than the Marelok, and people will complain, or be equivalent, and no one will bother, or be better, and be even more overpowered. The Marelok represented a HUGE leap forward in progression (and thankfully DE noticed and stopped doing that with subsequent releases).

 

What to do about it now? Yeah, it should have a bump in mastery to at least 6 to match the Soma, but really that's not a big deal. Anyone who has the mods maxxed out and forma to invest to really max out the weapon is probably beyond any mastery limitation. Really a weapon this powerful should be locked behind an RNG wall the equivalent to the Brakk, or at least a Prime. Yeah, the Lex Prime could use a slight buff, but that's a separate issue. What they should do is have the next similar weapon release (AkLex Prime?) be just slightly better (think same damage better fire rate, accuracy, clip, etc). I don't think the Marelok needs a nerf (or not a significant one) but I do think calling it OP is not out of the question and drawing attention to this has already limited excesses in the future.

 

SPrime doesn't come close to the damage potential of Marelok, and Detron has spread at range. Detron actually is pretty powerful, I wouldn't hesitate to call it equivalent, but the method of acquisition is much more appropriate for a weapon of that power.  

 

70% was in direct response to quoted comment regarding Sicarus Prime. Lex stats were already compared in a prior post.

 

@Darzk: How do you have the patience?

I'm bored and supposed to be working, lol.

 

Edit: other than Darzk's 70% deal the rest of this thread is based solely on opinion.

To a point. I'd call it opinion substantiated with facts. You could pull numbers from other weapons but it always boils down to less burst and far less damage/shot.

[Ribboz]

@Ribboz

 

Just because you use statistics does not make them facts.  Darzk already proved how your burst and sustained values were flawed and then supported his own claim that the Marelok does 70% more damage.  What are you even trying to argue at this point?

How does it not make them facts? It's simple math. yes he proved it was flawed on one website, so I provided another that even better proved my point with other weapons.

 

@Darzk: How do you have the patience?

I really hope this wasn't a slight against me. Because I'm fighting to keep things from getting unfairly nerfed here.

 

Lex Prime is rather balanced, imo. Could use a few tweaks, but as-is it's a balance of damage for a loss in utility, and we can work with that. DE has stated that they want weapons to be structured in tiers, but Marelok breaks that structure by being more powerful than the rough Prime equivalent. It's not the first weapon to do so, but it lacks a unique mechanic or Mastery lockout that the other weapons do. 

 

The problem is in the release of new weapons. The next heavy/sniper/slug pistol that's released will either be worse than the Marelok, and people will complain, or be equivalent, and no one will bother, or be better, and be even more overpowered. The Marelok represented a HUGE leap forward in progression (and thankfully DE noticed and stopped doing that with subsequent releases).

Well I'm sorry but we have a different opinion on the Lexs then. I've always found their weaknesses over shadow their strength. A damage buff to the Lex Prime seems justifiably deserved. I've seen multiple threads asking for it already.

 

Really what about the Boltor Prime? Or the Dragon Nikana. Well for the Dragon Nikana they just made it's mastery higher like I was trying to compromise with the Marelok.

 

I don't think the Marelok needs a nerf (or not a significant one) but I do think calling it OP is not out of the question and drawing attention to this has already limited excesses in the future.

I'm honestly surprised you said this. It actually takes a huge relief off me. I thought you were trying to nerf it into the ground like so many others. So sorry for misjudging you. Really, sorry. This whole nerf thing with this community gets my blood boiling. It's like they're trying to take something away from us that we have put time and love into. So again, sorry for misjudging you.

 

70% was in direct response to quoted comment regarding Sicarus Prime. Lex stats were already compared in a prior post.

 

I'm bored and supposed to be working, lol.

 

To a point. I'd call it opinion substantiated with facts. You could pull numbers from other weapons but it always boils down to less burst and far less damage/shot.

 

Yeah I get that. It just felt like a contradiction when combined with the statement that was made above it. Like saying "Oh we can't compare these" but then immediately comparing them after. And again, sorry for coming off aggressive or like a jerk. This forum drives me crazy with the amount of nerf threads. There is always a new one. And DE has shown in the past that they're willing to work for the vocal minority. Just afraid we're gonna lose everything we worked for.