Why Was Volt Made A Starter Frame Again?

[Azawarau]

It's understandable that they removed Loki from the starter list; it was sort of a long time coming, and a popular demand on these very forums. All of my friends who stopped playing Warframe early on did so because they made the decision, above what I recommended, to pick Loki because he was marked "for advanced players" (wrongly believing this just meant he was more powerful). You should never have an 'advanced' class included in the starters, when the whole point of a starter class is the assumption that the player has no prior experience with the game.

 

That said, I do take issue with them putting Volt back in his place. Don't get me wrong, I love playing Volt, but the problem is the playstyles offered: Excalibur's more of a melee and mobility frame, Mag is more support and power-based, and Loki was the stealth option - now replaced with another supportive, power-based frame, which rather limits your early playstyle options. Now even understanding that the starting experience would've been impossible as a Loki due to not having any offensive powers for the first segment right out of the pod, you still have a pre-built, perfect alternative in Ash! 

Mag feels like a defensive support with a touch of CC where volt is more of a run and gun

 

To me at least they feel different

[Moderius]

That said, I do take issue with them putting Volt back in his place. Don't get me wrong, I love playing Volt, but the problem is the playstyles offered: Excalibur's more of a melee and mobility frame, Mag is more support and power-based, and Loki was the stealth option - now replaced with another supportive, power-based frame, which rather limits your early playstyle options. Now even understanding that the starting experience would've been impossible as a Loki due to not having any offensive powers for the first segment right out of the pod, you still have a pre-built, perfect alternative in Ash! 

 

You're making the assumption that a starter frame needs to be a stealth frame. But you're not really making an argument against Volt being a great starter frame.

[gell]

I'll keep it short: Because it actually doesn't take a lot of work to build a dojo and add a Tenno research room, I cannot sympathize.

 

And yes, I read all 4 of your posts.

 

Get over it. You didn't actually put in as much time as you think you did. Everything between building the dojo's main room, 1 reactor, and the Tenno research room itself was not part of the work required to get Volt.

 

Also: "beta." Stuff changes.

[Archwizard]

You're making the assumption that a starter frame needs to be a stealth frame. But you're not really making an argument against Volt being a great starter frame.

 

I'm not 'assuming' anything, nor do I have anything against Volt. I'm just noting that it's odd that they would go the route of putting two casters in the list, when the whole point of having the list is to appeal to separate playstyle options and keep more players early on.

The previous two iterations of the roster featured a triad of separate playstyles (Direct Offense, Casting and Stealth); Mag and Volt have enough general similarity in playstyle that each have previously taken the Caster role in the roster (I'd even go so far as to say Volt was the better starter of the two due to the comparative simplicity of his skills to Mag's, but hey, gender representation).

I'm stating that there was no issue with that model, and that the reintroduction of Volt (but not the removal of Loki) was unnecessary while Mag is still an available option for the position he is normally intended to fulfill. It's presently less of a triad, compared to having primarily Offensive and Supportive extremes with Volt as a medium between at best. It really limits new player choices - especially for the people who were brought in by the constant use of the word "ninja" when describing this game but will now have to grind for/buy the most conventionally "ninja"-esque frames, and deal with which flavor of screwball spellslinger they want instead.

 

To sum up: You start a new game and you're presented with choices between Fighter, Mage and Sorcerer. How quickly will you be turned off by the lack of immediate distinction between the latter two? Because I for one don't want to go into a new game and immediately have to check wikis and get others' suggestions if I can avoid it.

And you're absolutely right, the third doesn't have to be a stealth option - but given that the majority of healing or gunslinging alternatives are more roundabout or advanced (or Oberon...), Ash is the most straightforward and unique alternative.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Archwizard

[Midas]

Could you not have picked a different frame to be the starter frame, DE? Volt is massively, massively difficult to get for normal players, so I feel like ive been kicked in the teeth, because my clan has invested thousands of items and hundreds of hours into getting the labs and research for Volt, so what does DE do? Completely devalue all our work and effort by handing it out for free. I wouldn't care if Volt was obtained by a normal means such as killing a boss, but the fact hes part of Clan Research for normal players is silly. In my opinion, the methods in which Loki and Volt are obtained should be switched, or another frame should be put in Volt's place as a starter frame. Its a huge insult to everyone who got Volt after he was added to Clan Research. 

 

In the most recent Dev Stream, it was stated Volt was selected because Loki made it awkward designing the tutorial, due to Loki's lack of an offensive ability, however there are literally loads of other frames that could have been used in his place, while being fair on veteran players. Ember, Frost, even Saryn come to mind.

because volt used to be a starter frame when the game came out. It may upset you however MANY get mad that they don't do damage when they first make their warframe account. This gives them a taste to a warframe they "like"

[Monolake]

Volt is great starter frame. Offence, defence. some CC and mobility.

[Midas]

Volt is great starter frame. Offence, defence. some CC and mobility.

He always has been a starter frame, he was one when the game came out, then was switched out.

[RedKite]

Well, I started as a Loki.  It was pretty painful at first, but after I got the Strun and mods, it wasn't that bad.  I actually survived longer in most missions than my teamates (invisibility OP).

 

I agree that Loki shouldn't be a starter frame with how the tutorial is set up, but I don't see why the replacment had to be Volt.  Yes, he was a starter frame in the past, but I think that he is too close to Mag in base playstyle (Caster/Support).  I would reccomend Ash (Stealth/Melee), or Oberon (Heal/Support) over Volt.

 

Also, according to Dev Stream #33, DE is open to changing the starting frames around after the dust settles from Update 14.

[Varzy]

To sum up: You start a new game and you're presented with choices between Fighter, Mage and Sorcerer. How quickly will you be turned off by the lack of immediate distinction between the latter two? Because I for one don't want to go into a new game and immediately have to check wikis and get others' suggestions if I can avoid it.

And you're absolutely right, the third doesn't have to be a stealth option - but given that the majority of healing or gunslinging alternatives are more roundabout or advanced (or Oberon...), Ash is the most straightforward and unique alternative.

 

I kind of figured they were Fighter, Black Mage, Red Mage. Volt can be used either as a caster or his abilities can supplement melee and gunplay, whereas Excalibur definitely has a melee/guns focus and Mag has huge damage (early on), CC and support utility with her powers.

 

If you put them on a scale of Guns/Melee Focus versus Power Focus, it'd go Excalibur, Volt, Mag.

 

The issue is that Volt is still being advertised as 'an alternative to gunplay' when he is, in fact, a frame who enhances gunplay.

[Azawarau]

Hey guys

 

I have an idea

 

We should make rhino into a starter frame

[Monolake]

Well, I started as a Loki.  It was pretty painful at first, but after I got the Strun and mods, it wasn't that bad.  I actually survived longer in most missions than my teamates (invisibility OP).

 

I agree that Loki shouldn't be a starter frame with how the tutorial is set up, but I don't see why the replacment had to be Volt.  Yes, he was a starter frame in the past, but I think that he is too close to Mag in base playstyle (Caster/Support).  I would reccomend Ash (Stealth/Melee), or Oberon (Heal/Support) over Volt.

 

Also, according to Dev Stream #33, DE is open to changing the starting frames around after the dust settles from Update 14.

'Caster' is a meaningless word, could you please stop using it.  Volt is far more versatile, while Mag is a primary an anti-Corpus damage dealer with some  CC, but Volt is good for defences and rushing too.

[Moderius]

I'm not 'assuming' anything, nor do I have anything against Volt. I'm just noting that it's odd that they would go the route of putting two casters in the list, when the whole point of having the list is to appeal to separate playstyle options and keep more players early on.

The previous two iterations of the roster featured a triad of separate playstyles (Direct Offense, Casting and Stealth); Mag and Volt have enough general similarity in playstyle that each have previously taken the Caster role in the roster (I'd even go so far as to say Volt was the better starter of the two due to the comparative simplicity of his skills to Mag's, but hey, gender representation).

I'm stating that there was no issue with that model, and that the reintroduction of Volt (but not the removal of Loki) was unnecessary while Mag is still an available option for the position he is normally intended to fulfill. It's presently less of a triad, compared to having primarily Offensive and Supportive extremes with Volt as a medium between at best. It really limits new player choices - especially for the people who were brought in by the constant use of the word "ninja" when describing this game but will now have to grind for/buy the most conventionally "ninja"-esque frames, and deal with which flavor of screwball spellslinger they want instead.

 

To sum up: You start a new game and you're presented with choices between Fighter, Mage and Sorcerer. How quickly will you be turned off by the lack of immediate distinction between the latter two? Because I for one don't want to go into a new game and immediately have to check wikis and get others' suggestions if I can avoid it.

And you're absolutely right, the third doesn't have to be a stealth option - but given that the majority of healing or gunslinging alternatives are more roundabout or advanced (or Oberon...), Ash is the most straightforward and unique alternative.

 

You continue to say that Volt and Mag are similar. They are not. Your entire argument is flawed. Touting Ash over and over doesn't make any sort of effective point; pretending he's a perfect starter frame won't make it true. He's a better choice than Ember, or Frost, or Volt? How? Because _____? 

 

But let's point out the huge flaw in this repetitive claim of yours. No, not the one that Volt and Mag are similar; everyone already knows that's got no merit. That Ash is a good idea. Because there are no other frames in the starter pool that have melee-based powers. Right? Except for Excalibur, I mean. But I mean, Excalibur and Ash are so different:

 

1st ability: Slash damage.

2nd ability: Melee damage amplification

3rd ability: mobility boost

 

Wow! So different! Is that describing Ash or Excalibur, quick quiz. Oh there's very little difference, especially when the frame is pre-mods. So stop pointing to Ash because no, he's not a good starter frame.

[RedKite]

'Caster' is a meaningless word, could you please stop using it.  Volt is far more versatile, while Mag is a primary an anti-Corpus damage dealer with some  CC, but Volt is good for defences and rushing too.

Barely.

 

Why are you mad that I generalized Volt to be a 'Caster' frame (when he is)?  It is simply a category that the community uses to group the frames together, no need to get offended.  Especially when it doesn't discredit the frame itself.  Sure, you can use Volt however you like, but for the sake of how the tutorial is set up, he is a 'Caster' frame in my mind.

 

Doesn't mean you have to agree.  Doesn't mean my branding in the grand scheme of Warframe is 'correct'.  Doesn't mean you have to take offense.  Lets just be civil, 'kay?

Edited July 22, 2014 by RedKite

[Moderius]

  Lets just be civil, 'kay?

 

You're implying he wasn't civil in a very passive-aggressive way. Which, given your assumption that he is "mad" or "offended", is pretty ironic, outright.

[Monolake]

Barely.

 

Why are you mad that I generalized Volt to be a 'Caster' frame (when he is)?  It is simply a category that the community uses to group the frames together, no need to get offended.  Especially when it doesn't discredit the frame itself.  Sure, you can use Volt however you like, but for the sake of how the tutorial is set up, he is a 'Caster' frame in my mind.

 

Doesn't mean you have to agree.  Doesn't mean my branding in the grand scheme of Warframe is 'correct'.  Doesn't mean you have to take offense.  Lets just be civil, 'kay?

Not offended. But 'Caster' is a meaningless word that says nothing. Its not a role or class. Its like saying 'he can use abilites' well, everyone can. Everyone except Loki has a damaging ability.

[(PSN)Folkeye]

Electric Shield is hands down the best shield in the game

 

 

Yeah, I've come to appreciate it as much as snowglobe (maybe a little more since there's damage added and all)  I'll take full advantage of my shield but when I place a second for somebody else to use, especially in defense covering a hallway, nobody uses it. Their loss. Either they don't care about not getting the splat shot out of them, or they have no idea what it does.      :)

Edited July 22, 2014 by (PS4)Folkeye

[LukeAura]

In response to OP, Any new player can be helped in to a clan, grab the Volt parts and split.
But Excalibur is all the way on Pluto and it's not fair to the other new players who don't have the mods and skill yet to play there that they get Excalibur while everyone else doesn't.
Logic here is roughly the same as your logic. It's a matter of opinion on what is more difficult, you spent the time crafting Volt, good for you. But that's only one kind of challenge, which may or may not be more challenging than getting Excalibur. If Anything by that comment Mag should be replaced to have a frame that is a little harder to acquire or appears later on in the solar system.

 

You continue to say that Volt and Mag are similar. They are not. Your entire argument is flawed. Touting Ash over and over doesn't make any sort of effective point; pretending he's a perfect starter frame won't make it true. He's a better choice than Ember, or Frost, or Volt? How? Because _____? 

 

But let's point out the huge flaw in this repetitive claim of yours. No, not the one that Volt and Mag are similar; everyone already knows that's got no merit. That Ash is a good idea. Because there are no other frames in the starter pool that have melee-based powers. Right? Except for Excalibur, I mean. But I mean, Excalibur and Ash are so different:

 

1st ability: Slash damage.

2nd ability: Melee damage amplification

3rd ability: mobility boost

 

Wow! So different! Is that describing Ash or Excalibur, quick quiz. Oh there's very little difference, especially when the frame is pre-mods. So stop pointing to Ash because no, he's not a good starter frame.

AoE, Ranged damage, + CC one skill, minimal effort required in its use. Most defining part of the problem when running through the tutorial you are probably relying on this skill. Volt and Mag have very similar ones. 
Defense+offense mix bubble/shield, 
medium time length on Ult channel, have very castery feels to them as the effect comes from the channeling of energy as opposed to say Rhino/Excalibur/Ash where their is a sign that a certain amount of physical exertion is involved.
High shields, 
Similar natural speed tiers
The only difference is mag has a shield manipulator and Volt has a melee/mobility buff. 
Their playstyle, at least for the tutorial and until Volt's can start making good use of speed with a decent melee weapon and buffed defenses if they even do that, is similar.  

The reason Loki was in there with Excal and Mag was to create a Fighter/Mage/Stealth feel to the selection. This does not say though that Volt is necessarily bad, it says that him+mag are bad, either one can leave. And you say Excal and Ash share melee based powers, but really, we have two options elemental based powers or physical based powers by that definition. Excaliburs are direct melee based powers, and Ash's are indirect. Most mages rely on indirect skills, they do not throw you in front of enemies or make you vulnerable to them ala Slash Dash. This really only leaves Hydroid, Oberon, Ash, and Nekros as choices to fill the niche of not direct melee damage or not indirect elemental damage. the other three are way too exotic to be given out as Starters, which makes Ash a logical choice.

Other advantages to Ash as a starter,
Later in solar system acquirement(Between Mag and Excal) will help balance out the triangle no matter which 'mage' is removed. It Creates a nice flow of early -> mid -> late if he replaces Volt, and reduces the disparity in acquirement time if he replaces Mag.
Naturally higher health and speed separate him out from every other possible starter.
Cheap defense, mobility, and damage gives him lots of early game options. Great for new players. 
Is capable of filling the stealth role of the classic starter triangle Loki left open that having Mag/Volt denies.
His benefits to melee play are stronger than Volt's for early game, freedom of movement is better than moving faster.
Disadvantages, 
Still requires more thought and slightly more initial mod energy to make the best use of his options, Ash would need base Shuriken and Smokescreen for best results while Excal, Mag, Volt all can get away with just their one skill due to their larger area of effect.
Twin V polarities are a lot less useful to low level players, even with damaged mods.

While he is not perfect, he is probably the best choice. 

Another thing to consider for him replacing Mag is that this gives every player the option of enhanced mobility despite specializing in a different classes, Excalibur having two mobility skills, Volt has speed, And Ash has teleport, Smokescreen and a higher sprint. The pacing and movement is a great draw factor to Warframe that Mag probably fails to show. 

Edited July 22, 2014 by LukeAura

[Archwizard]

You continue to say that Volt and Mag are similar. They are not. Your entire argument is flawed. 

 

New assumption: You came out of the womb full-grown. Good for you, but some people actually have to grow into these pants.

 

Normally, I would agree with you. The problem is, your argument is assuming they have our level of experience. As I've stated repeatedly (and you've ignored repeatedly), the first quest is that this is a starting experience; dumb yourself down a bit, ignore what you've seen and think like someone who's playing Day 1, with no research or previews elsewhere. 

 

Yes, in terms of playstyle, we as experienced players - ones who have already seen them played, or played them ourselves - would know the severe distinctions and slightest nuances in their abilities. To someone who only has the Codex's bare descriptions to go by though? At best they're both looked at as Caster 1 and Caster 2 from their images; at worst, Mag McSplosions can come off like the more offense-oriented of the two with Volt's buffs as the supportive option. The descriptions are rather light on things like damage boosts - and the player hasn't fought their first Grineer Lancer yet, much less faced down a crowd of Corpus Moas.

 

That Ash is a good idea. Because there are no other frames in the starter pool that have melee-based powers. Right? Except for Excalibur, I mean. But I mean, Excalibur and Ash are so different

 

Again, you gotta go by the descriptions you've been given by that point. No indicator is given that Smoke Bomb or Radial Blind increase melee damage dealt - just that one turns you invisible and the other blinds enemies. Excalibur can jump and charge, Ash can throw knives and teleport. Excalibur presents himself as a blade-wielding strongman, Ash presents himself as a stealthier assassin.

 

Funnily enough, the exact same deconstruction methods you use for Ash and Excalibur comparison from a veteran perspective, can be given to Mag and Volt from a newcomer perspective. The difference being, the experience is built for them, not us.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Archwizard

[Moderius]

AoE, Ranged damage, + CC one skill, minimal effort required in its use. Most defining part of the problem when running through the tutorial you are probably relying on this skill. Volt and Mag have very similar ones. 

 

Wow let's just...stop right there. Aside from being very different outside the first ability, which both deal very different damage types and very, very different ability sets beyond that, they are entirely visually different. The abilities are entirely aesthetically separate. 

 

Their ability to affect multiple enemies with their first abilities is exactly why they're ideal intro frames. Using it will clear out some enemies with each cast, plural, enemies. Not one enemy. Which is what makes both of them, and Excalibur, excellent starter frames. 

[Moderius]

New assumption: You came out of the womb full-grown. Good for you, but some people actually have to grow into these pants.

 

Normally, I would agree with you. The problem is, your argument is assuming they have our level of experience. As I've stated repeatedly (and you've ignored repeatedly), the first quest is that this is a starting experience; dumb yourself down a bit, ignore what you've seen and think like someone who's playing Day 1, with no research or previews elsewhere. 

 

Yes, in terms of playstyle, we as experienced players - ones who have already seen them played, or played them ourselves - would know the severe distinctions and slightest nuances in their abilities. To someone who only has the Codex's bare descriptions to go by though? At best they're both looked at as Caster 1 and Caster 2 from their images; at worst, Mag McSplosions can come off like the more offense-oriented of the two with Volt's buffs as the supportive option. The descriptions are rather light on things like damage boosts - and the player hasn't fought their first Grineer Lancer yet, much less faced down a crowd of Corpus Moas.

 

 

Again, you gotta go by the descriptions you've been given by that point. No indicator is given that Smoke Bomb or Radial Blind increase melee damage dealt - just that one turns you invisible and the other blinds enemies. Excalibur can jump and charge, Ash can throw knives and teleport. Excalibur presents himself as a blade-wielding strongman, Ash presents himself as a stealthier assassin.

 

Funnily enough, the exact same deconstruction methods you use for Ash and Excalibur comparison from a veteran perspective, can be given to Mag and Volt from a newcomer perspective. The difference being, the experience is built for them, not us.

 

For a whole lot of words, you don't actually say anything. Except that you just say "no, you don't understand", over and over and over in different ways. Without any real content.

[Azawarau]

Don't bother arguing with Moderius guys, he's as infallible as he is deaf to other perspectives.

Theres great irony in this

[LukeAura]

Wow let's just...stop right there. Aside from being very different outside the first ability, which both deal very different damage types and very, very different ability sets beyond that, they are entirely visually different. The abilities are entirely aesthetically separate. 

 

Their ability to affect multiple enemies with their first abilities is exactly why they're ideal intro frames. Using it will clear out some enemies with each cast, plural, enemies. Not one enemy. Which is what makes both of them, and Excalibur, excellent starter frames. 

You do know as I said and Archwizard said, that the first ability is the defining ability for low level players right? Other abilities tend not to come in to play until they have ranked up their frame, flow, and streamline then eventually Fleeting Expertise. But at the beginning, they pretty much need to use their cheapest skill. The other abilities will likely not affect a new players initial experience. 

I also do cover the other abilities any ways, but I guess you didn't read that since you stopped. Right there. 

And new players don't understand damage types so that's not a problem, and both damage types are roughly equal to each other actually. Both will suffer against Grineer, find slight bonuses against Corpus and be completely neutral to infested should the new player run in to them. Which is a visual feedback they will pick up on. And aesthetically separate? Volt/Mag holds out their hand, their element happens over an area roughly in front of them doing what it does to the enemy, they're not 'entirely' different. Mostly, they're the same. And it's basic functionality that is key, not advanced or visuals. Both have the same basic function. 

And AoE is nice to give to new players, but, Ash would have the best base stats and his smokescreen which would still be relatively cheap in energy and mod costs to balance him. I cover all this in the rest of my post, but you did stop at the very beginning and threw away the rest.

[SirAuron]

Volt has speed so they can zip past everything.

[fatpig84]

I would prefer Ash due to Shuriken spam as a starter.

But Volt will do.

 

 

Also removing Loki made sense, because when Lotus overloaded your frame with power, you can't decoy someone to death.

Edited July 23, 2014 by fatpig84

[Moderius]

And AoE is nice to give to new players, but, Ash would have the best base stats and his smokescreen which would still be relatively cheap in energy and mod costs to balance him. I cover all this in the rest of my post, but you did stop at the very beginning and threw away the rest.

 

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Saying that Mag and Volt's other abilities aside from the first don't matter, and then turning around and calling on Ash's other abilities. Right.

 

Mag's and Volt's first abilities behave very differently. They are visually different. They target differently. They affect enemies differently. Trying to crowbar Ash into a starter role isn't going to be work any better if you pretend otherwise. Smokescreen lasts 2 seconds at base rank. A very effective ability new players, that. 

 

I threw away the rest of the post because I'm not going to quote the entire mess every response, and you don't know how to format into a non-brick.