"warframe Is A Beta"

[Gryffinhart]

Gracious, another extra credits video... while I love the EC team and their videos are without much doubt correct, I think it's a little... silly whenever someone links one to do their points for them. No offense.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Gryffinhart

[Yazeth]

Here's stuff that DE still have to do before Full Release, based on my opinion:

1) Unique tilesets for ALL planets

2) More enemy types to create a more unique experience and variety. Contest winners currently on the way, but may not be enough imo.

3) Balancing and fixes

4) More missions w/ Lore

5) Rework ALL Bosses and add new bosses

6) Reduce repetitiveness some way

7) OPTIONAL: Make farming somehow fun.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

My biggest issue is that Kubrows are a HUGE feature of U14, and Steve told us to basically figure out for ourselves how incubating, hatching, growing and using Kubrows works.

How can we even begin to test and bughunt when we don't even know what to look for, let alone how the dang thing even works?

If it's still in Beta, they need to get their priorities straight. "Surprises" (wasted plat and bugs galore) are definitely not needed. Finding and reporting issues is.

Nah, surprises are a good thing too.  Besides, update 14 seems to be based around making the game easier to understand for new players.  If veteran players can't figure out something as simple as the Kubro system then how could they expect new players to do so? That is a "bug" test in its own right. If they held your hand and explained how everything worked then it would defeat the point.

[Engret]

That is a fair point, however bosses don't serve much purpose in this game anyways aside from farming them to acquire parts to build a Warframe or acquiring mods found only in their drop tables then never fighting them again either.

You basically just described their purpose in the game lol. They also add lore to the game, which this game desperately needs. Alad V, Sargus, Vay Hek hello? Every time DE adds a reworked boss they add lore to it. Which is also going to happen with the Infested Alad V with the new J3 Golem. So yes, bosses are a purpose in the game.

[(PSN)MoriartyHaaaiii]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't they say they're adding both PvE and PvP dark sector conflicts?

 

Yes, they said that, but they aren't.

[Amzen]

Really can't agree with your blanket statement on PVE/PVP games.  Just because you're playing against other people doesn't mean longevity simply because of the randomness of pvp play.  PVE or PVP has the potential to be good or to suck and appeals to many in many different ways.  Hell, Everquest 1 still has a playerbase and it's pve.  Not really sure what that has to do with the game still being a beta technically either.

 

As far as beta.  The game still has CORE aspects being revisited/remade etc in so many areas of the game let a lone anything new they make.  It is not ready in that sense.

[Cepmosod]

Nah, surprises are a good thing too.  Besides, update 14 seems to be based around making the game easier to understand for new players.  If veteran players can't figure out something as simple as the Kubro system then how could they expect new players to do so? That is a "bug" test in its own right. If they held your hand and explained how everything worked then it would defeat the point.

The only surprise is when players realize they lost real world money and time to a bug.

I'd understand your point if one of the largest and arguably inciting feature wasn't behind a buggy paywall of RNG based malice. A fraction of the community can barely test the Kubrows, and the rest is waiting or grinding to join them. 

Even after 4 Kubrows, I still have no frakkin' clue how the damned thing works. If DE explained to us what SHOULD happen, then we'd know if something really was bugged out and broken. 

Right now, we don't really know if the scrambler's bugged (it is on the bug megathread though), we don't know how long it should really take for a kubrow to grow (my first one matured in little over a day), we don't know if loyalty should be the way it is, we don't know if the imprints are bugged, giving completely random results, even though a simple punnett square can give you a base idea.

The only thing we're testing, is how much money can we throw into a freshly bugged update.

 

Edited July 21, 2014 by Cepmosod

[(PSN)andyb_b5]

Look at the old weapon designs, the bosses, the positively ancient corpus ships, the bugginess of U14 and how long it's taken DE with 24/7 work to patch it, and tell me it's not beta.

Because I know people will say this: Paying makes it full is not an excuse. Its a free to play game. They need those transactions to keep the company running. People are basically saying "They chose to make this game free to play; therefore they cannot call it 'beta.'" It's absolutely unreasonable to penalize a company with an open beta free to play by forcing them to call it a full release, simply because they wish to get paid.

So following that, Warframe is still a beta. It has no endgame, and that alone make it fail as a full release and require a 'beta' title.

I support the Beta tag for the near future until I can see Warframe doing reasonably well under a full release tag.

 

The reasons you give for beta are not valid reasons. Its beta while DE says it is, no other reason and none other needed.

 

The quality of a release has nothing to do with it being beta, its about professionalism of the company and how good their testing/QA/release procedures are.

 

The payment model has a bearing as once you start taking peoples money there is now a  duty to provide the customer with what they have paid for. This doesn't stop it being beta though.

 

The lack of end game is irrelevant. End game is what DE says it is or even if there should be one. The customers may not like or agree but again this is purely DE's call.

 

For me, and this is my own opinion, the game has gone beyond beta and is now in the DLC/Update cycle. If I didn't think this I would not have dropped a single penny into it. I consider it good enough fun and complete enough to be worth splashing some cash when I feel like it. Consider this a big +1 for the game already. I look forwards to seeing what the later DLC/Update cycles will bring.

[Somedude1000]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/224805-none-of-us-will-reach-rank-30-with-numbers-3/

 

We'll just have to wait and see...

[Dualstar]

I doubt there would be any discernible difference if they stopped considering Warframe a beta and deemed it "Released."

Well there are certainly discernable differences between just U11 and U13.

 

Maybe DE could offer the ability to play an older version of the game just so we can see how far it has come.

[Caernarvon]

Every shill on a game's forum ever.

 

Beta is just an excuse used by devs nowadays to justify that a game is a buggy mess.

[Atvir]

 

While I do not agree Warframe is still a Beta, this video hightlights the problem with early access to new games/content. For Warframe, that would include Update 14 which has had many mixed feelings by the community.

 

Regarding my reason for not considering Warframe a Beta, there are many other multiplayer games in a similar phase that are still constantly evolving yet considered a complete game. If these games did not, the playerbase would inevitably move on to a newer game. This is especially true in PvE games which Warframe falls under. PvP games have a longer shelf life solely because competing against players offers a different experience every time. I am not advocating that Warframe resorts to PvP as their end game, merely that in order for Warframe to survive it must continue to evolve, but with one condition. That condition is to evolve in complete phases. Why? For the very reasons that the video above highlighted.

 

"Adapt or perish, now as ever, is Nature's inexorable imperative." -H.G. Wells

 

Just what i am always talking about - but way better ;)

big bump and thump up

[Mokkania]

I don't understand what you're trying to do with this thread.

[MrKage]

I don't understand what you're trying to do with this thread.

[TisForTat]

Gracious, another extra credits video... while I love the EC team and their videos are without much doubt correct, I think it's a little... silly whenever someone links one to do their points for them. No offense.

I'm not really linking them to do my points so much as I'm just adding secondary opinion to reinfornce mine. My opinion is that this is a fully released game that will endlessly update like other MMORPG's which is because I believe after forming two partnerships (Valve and Sony) and closing their founders package awhile back seals the deal in terms of leaving beta. My other opinion is that this last update was poorly done beyond eye candy and that further updates should be slightly delayed for quality assurance of their new content. Extra credit makes a valid point about early access tends to have a few advantages, but many big disadvantages. Another point mentioned briefly is the "completeness" of "betas".

 

Here's stuff that DE still have to do before Full Release, based on my opinion:

1) Unique tilesets for ALL planets

2) More enemy types to create a more unique experience and variety. Contest winners currently on the way, but may not be enough imo.

3) Balancing and fixes

4) More missions w/ Lore

5) Rework ALL Bosses and add new bosses

6) Reduce repetitiveness some way

7) OPTIONAL: Make farming somehow fun.

Well, that is certainly things down the road DE should accomplish to add more content. I'm not sure how they would accomplish making farming fun.

 

Nah, surprises are a good thing too.  Besides, update 14 seems to be based around making the game easier to understand for new players.  If veteran players can't figure out something as simple as the Kubro system then how could they expect new players to do so? That is a "bug" test in its own right. If they held your hand and explained how everything worked then it would defeat the point.

I'm going to disagree. I'm a Mastery Rank 16 and I played through the entire new tutorial. The game is actually harder for new players to understand now arguably and the tutorial honestly didn't explain much besides the game controls which anyone can look at in the options. Mods, market, codex, etc. were left for guesswork and what makes it worse is the UI is much harder to use. The tutorial is still an improvement over before and felt more involving, but there were many things still left out that are core features of the game.

 

You basically just described their purpose in the game lol. They also add lore to the game, which this game desperately needs. Alad V, Sargus, Vay Hek hello? Every time DE adds a reworked boss they add lore to it. Which is also going to happen with the Infested Alad V with the new J3 Golem. So yes, bosses are a purpose in the game.

I agree that bosses add lore, but the bosses still lack replayability. In terms of MMORPG, that is mediocre design.

 

Really can't agree with your blanket statement on PVE/PVP games.  Just because you're playing against other people doesn't mean longevity simply because of the randomness of pvp play.  PVE or PVP has the potential to be good or to suck and appeals to many in many different ways.  Hell, Everquest 1 still has a playerbase and it's pve.  Not really sure what that has to do with the game still being a beta technically either.

 

As far as beta.  The game still has CORE aspects being revisited/remade etc in so many areas of the game let a lone anything new they make.  It is not ready in that sense.

I prefer PvE games honestly because I prefer working with other players rather than working against them. Nonetheless, PvP adds an independent variable to the game which freshens the experience. However that also includes venemous behavior which is made worse when players are competiting against each other. Everything has its own set of pros and cons after all. Everquest has a decent quest system which put ours to shame.

 

The only surprise is when players realize they lost real world money and time to a bug.

I'd understand your point if one of the largest and arguably inciting feature wasn't behind a buggy paywall of RNG based malice. A fraction of the community can barely test the Kubrows, and the rest is waiting or grinding to join them. 

Even after 4 Kubrows, I still have no frakkin' clue how the damned thing works. If DE explained to us what SHOULD happen, then we'd know if something really was bugged out and broken. 

Right now, we don't really know if the scrambler's bugged (it is on the bug megathread though), we don't know how long it should really take for a kubrow to grow (my first one matured in little over a day), we don't know if loyalty should be the way it is, we don't know if the imprints are bugged, giving completely random results, even though a simple punnett square can give you a base idea.

The only thing we're testing, is how much money can we throw into a freshly bugged update.

 

Kubrow to me don't really add much to gameplay other than a burden of time and resources for players, even if we take out the guesswork and bugs.

 

The reasons you give for beta are not valid reasons. Its beta while DE says it is, no other reason and none other needed.

 

The quality of a release has nothing to do with it being beta, its about professionalism of the company and how good their testing/QA/release procedures are.

 

The payment model has a bearing as once you start taking peoples money there is now a  duty to provide the customer with what they have paid for. This doesn't stop it being beta though.

 

The lack of end game is irrelevant. End game is what DE says it is or even if there should be one. The customers may not like or agree but again this is purely DE's call.

 

For me, and this is my own opinion, the game has gone beyond beta and is now in the DLC/Update cycle. If I didn't think this I would not have dropped a single penny into it. I consider it good enough fun and complete enough to be worth splashing some cash when I feel like it. Consider this a big +1 for the game already. I look forwards to seeing what the later DLC/Update cycles will bring.

I can agree with the update cycle, which is one of my points. Warframe is a MMORPG which is by very nature an update cycle.

 

 

Every shill on a game's forum ever.

 

Beta is just an excuse used by devs nowadays to justify that a game is a buggy mess.

Amusing. This is partially true, but to me it has more to do with the fact that Warframe is a MMO for space ninjas and has gone about 3 specific things, soon to be 4 when XBox gets involved.

 

I don't understand what you're trying to do with this thread.

To delay updates. "Haste makes waste". Update 14 feels a bit rushed.

[Gammaion]

I personally think Warframe stepped right back into Beta with the advent of U14.

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

As a matter of fact Warframe is offered as full game on PS4. By the way betas are not allowed to have trophy support on PS platforms.

But what I have to say, full release games usually have full campaign even if it's short and full compliment of levels and bosses. Warframe just got first quest on PC. 1 quest, and half of bosses are placeholders. Make it 15 main quests and every planet with a unique boss, and that's a release version. Sure, you can keep adding game later. But 1 prologue quest is not a full release material.

[JHarlequin]

 Warframe isn't just being tested.  It is being played, so it isn't just a beta.  That said, it is still being developed and new features are added regularly with a support team and development team working full time on the project.

 

 It is a growing Public release development game.  Every issue that comes up can not just be excused down by any fan.  The other players don't have to say anything about most issues other then if they agree or disagree and why.  Saying "Give it time it is a beta" is not constructive, discussing the issue, or even helpful.

 

 Discuss an issue or stay out of the thread.  Don't try to include an unnecessary excuse.  That said, some of the details that have come up in the latest patch could have people telling others "I like this portion.  Please give it a week for the game damaging bugs to be worked out then try it a few days and tell us if you like it better."  But don't expect some of those issues to cool down.  Some things are really bothering people and won't get better once the bugs are filtered out.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

As a matter of fact Warframe is offered as full game on PS4. By the way betas are not allowed to have trophy support on PS platforms.

But what I have to say, full release games usually have full campaign even if it's short and full compliment of levels and bosses. Warframe just got first quest on PC. 1 quest, and half of bosses are placeholders. Make it 15 main quests and every planet with a unique boss, and that's a release version. Sure, you can keep adding game later. But 1 prologue quest is not a full release material.

There are games that are PvP only.  Quests =/= full game.  Full game is being open to the public and having a functioning monetization strategy (be that up front purchases or micro-transactions).

[Atvir]

As a matter of fact Warframe is offered as full game on PS4. By the way betas are not allowed to have trophy support on PS platforms.

But what I have to say, full release games usually have full campaign even if it's short and full compliment of levels and bosses. Warframe just got first quest on PC. 1 quest, and half of bosses are placeholders. Make it 15 main quests and every planet with a unique boss, and that's a release version. Sure, you can keep adding game later. But 1 prologue quest is not a full release material.

 

I don't believe that Warframe will ever get a whole campaign. It's a fast access 'n fast paced shooter, no mmorpg or mmo-shooter, if we are honest.

It is only on the paper a beta, because of obvious reasons. I am not angry or so, i think i would have perhaps done it the same, but that doesn't change a thing. buggy regular updates do not automaticaly indicate the beta status. fact is, that warframe is practically finished and it has made and is making a LOT of money with this game.

 

But these new types of long-time-open-butyoucanpayasmuchasuwant-beta are becoming quite regular in the todays gaming landscrape. I do not like it and there are many reasons beside those named in the video.

 

Furthermore i do not think that warframe is made out of charity, with the only goal to please the customer and that we should happy to have it and therefor do not have to complain. they are making enough money with warframe. the transition to ps4/xbox is also manly monetary based - not a gift for the gaming community. i dont know on which planets you all live :D

Edited July 21, 2014 by Atvir

[Mokkania]

To delay updates. "Haste makes waste". Update 14 feels a bit rushed.

I see, I'm all for it, kinda wonder how they do the internal testing.

[Prime-]

Warframe is a Perpetual Beta

Edited July 21, 2014 by Prime-

[TisForTat]

I personally think Warframe stepped right back into Beta with the advent of U14.

I humorously agree in the sense that Warframe arguably went backwards with U14, but not to the extent that it reverted from release to beta.

 

As a matter of fact Warframe is offered as full game on PS4. By the way betas are not allowed to have trophy support on PS platforms.

But what I have to say, full release games usually have full campaign even if it's short and full compliment of levels and bosses. Warframe just got first quest on PC. 1 quest, and half of bosses are placeholders. Make it 15 main quests and every planet with a unique boss, and that's a release version. Sure, you can keep adding game later. But 1 prologue quest is not a full release material.

That's a bit of contradiction, but I certainly agree with you that Warframe should improve its quest system and rework many of its bosses, but even then there is more to it than that to determine whether a game is beta or not.

 

 Warframe isn't just being tested.  It is being played, so it isn't just a beta.  That said, it is still being developed and new features are added regularly with a support team and development team working full time on the project.

 

 It is a growing Public release development game.  Every issue that comes up can not just be excused down by any fan.  The other players don't have to say anything about most issues other then if they agree or disagree and why.  Saying "Give it time it is a beta" is not constructive, discussing the issue, or even helpful.

 

 Discuss an issue or stay out of the thread.  Don't try to include an unnecessary excuse.  That said, some of the details that have come up in the latest patch could have people telling others "I like this portion.  Please give it a week for the game damaging bugs to be worked out then try it a few days and tell us if you like it better."  But don't expect some of those issues to cool down.  Some things are really bothering people and won't get better once the bugs are filtered out.

You mind if I add your quote to the OP?

 

I don't believe that Warframe will ever get a whole campaign. It's a fast access 'n fast paced shooter, no mmorpg or mmo-shooter, if we are honest.

It is only on the paper a beta, because of obvious reasons. I am not angry or so, i think i would have perhaps done it the same, but that doesn't change a thing. buggy regular updates do not automaticaly indicate the beta status. fact is, that warframe is practically finished and it has made and is making a LOT of money with this game.

 

But these new types of long-time-open-butyoucanpayasmuchasuwant-beta are becoming quite regular in the todays gaming landscrape. I do not like it and there are many reasons beside those named in the video.

 

Furthermore i do not think that warframe is made out of charity, with the only goal to please the customer and that we should happy to have it and therefor do not have to complain. they are making enough money with warframe. the transition to ps4/xbox is also manly monetary based - not a gift for the gaming community. i dont know on which planets you all live :D

There are many marketing strategies and as I previously said, at the end of the day a commercialized product is made to earn profit and discontinued when it does not. They are not a charity as you pointed out eloquently.

 

I enjoy games that have replayability which is essentially MMORPG as a genre of its own, however even I know when to say 'meh' and move on. Warframe is still progressing, so that time has not come, but I would very much appreciate if they were more willing to hold off deadlines to do major testing.

 

Think of it this way. Back in "ye old days", hosts or servants would always take the first bite of their meal. Why? This was because occasionally hosts or servants would poison their guests or king respectively, so it was customary for hosts or servants to reassure their guests or king respectively that the food was not poisoned.

 

I see, I'm all for it, kinda wonder how they do the internal testing.

They already do, but it was not very thorough for U14.

[Ryjeon]

Beta or not, Warframe is a continually evolving product that depends on it's userbase to fuel and inform it's development. Whether those users feel more like customers who are entitled to returns on their investment, or like participants who are engaged in a progressively expanding work of art and entertainment, will vary from person to person. Having purchased multiple founder and prime access packages I feel myself more of a patron of a development studio's project, rather than someone who has purchased a ticket at an amusement park.

As such, I am comfortable with the studio's development cycle. And always look forward to what this team comes up with.

[Atvir]

Beta or not, Warframe is a continually evolving product that depends on it's userbase to fuel and inform it's development. Whether those users feel more like customers who are entitled to returns on their investment, or like participants who are engaged in a progressively expanding work of art and entertainment, will vary from person to person. Having purchased multiple founder and prime access packages I feel myself more of a patron of a development studio's project, rather than someone who has purchased a ticket at an amusement park.

As such, I am comfortable with the studio's development cycle. And always look forward to what this team comes up with.

 

You are absolut right and have the right to feel like a "patron" - i really like your engagement (no sarkasm).

 

my only problem is, that the term "beta" is always used as a shield after a fully bugged update - which could have easily prevented or at least moderated by various means. for example testing servers, more relying on founders with special access, "only realesing update AND update deadlines when the produkt (here the update) is done", be able to say no if you know that the update is not ready (even it means to get the one or other bad post in the forum) and so on.

 

And again - they are living and working in a harsh time and continious evolving field - therefor they have to earn mony, pay their bills, pay their employes and are more than allowed to earn money with a free to play game and make the best out of it.

 

the only thing i do not like is the use of "beta" as an excuss for repeatingly over-bugged updates which all could have been prevented or at least moderated by the right means.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Atvir