"warframe Is A Beta"

[letir]

the only thing i do not like is the use of "beta" as an excuss for repeatingly over-bugged updates which all could have been prevented or at least moderated by the right means.

"Overbugged updates" must be tested and checked. It's work of testers. It's beta, we all beta-testers, so it's our work. Simple.

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

I just love these posts. This is a nontraditional beta. It is a monetized beta but it is still going through massive and fundamental changes to the structure of game play. That's what makes it a beta. Not whether you spend money on it but what is the state currently compared to the "release" product. It seems what the OP wants is a slower release cycle. We get relatively bug free release on ps4, so if you want a less buggy release your looking at the extra month or two wait we experience.

[Atvir]

I just love these posts. This is a nontraditional beta. It is a monetized beta but it is still going through massive and fundamental changes to the structure of game play. That's what makes it a beta. Not whether you spend money on it but what is the state currently compared to the "release" product. It seems what the OP wants is a slower release cycle. We get relatively bug free release on ps4, so if you want a less buggy release your looking at the extra month or two wait we experience.

 

Then every MMORPG,MMO-Shooter or comparable Online-Game is in a permanent Beta. I dont see any massive fundamental changes which differs from bigger updates of more prominent MMORPGs,etc. who are not considered to be in permanent Beta.

 

What was so massive and fundamental in this update that it would justife your interpretation of Beta?

 

The change of the UI? Several other games have undergone this process and are not in permanent Beta because of it.

The few "so called missions"? How many are there? And are they real missions? For me 90% of the co called missions are simple regular missions, thrown into a new context.

The kubrows? Yeah, everyone likes to have little Pokemon in a fast paced action-shooter.

The new Frame? Every 0815 online game gets new classes or abilities at regular basis.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Atvir

[TisForTat]

Beta or not, Warframe is a continually evolving product that depends on it's userbase to fuel and inform it's development. Whether those users feel more like customers who are entitled to returns on their investment, or like participants who are engaged in a progressively expanding work of art and entertainment, will vary from person to person. Having purchased multiple founder and prime access packages I feel myself more of a patron of a development studio's project, rather than someone who has purchased a ticket at an amusement park.

As such, I am comfortable with the studio's development cycle. And always look forward to what this team comes up with.

It is perpetually evolving akin to any other MMORPG. I look forward to updates as much as the next guy, but I still prefer to see things at least moderately refined before they are made live.

 

You are absolut right and have the right to feel like a "patron" - i really like your engagement (no sarkasm).

 

my only problem is, that the term "beta" is always used as a shield after a fully bugged update - which could have easily prevented or at least moderated by various means. for example testing servers, more relying on founders with special access, "only realesing update AND update deadlines when the produkt (here the update) is done", be able to say no if you know that the update is not ready (even it means to get the one or other bad post in the forum) and so on.

 

And again - they are living and working in a harsh time and continious evolving field - therefor they have to earn mony, pay their bills, pay their employes and are more than allowed to earn money with a free to play game and make the best out of it.

 

the only thing i do not like is the use of "beta" as an excuss for repeatingly over-bugged updates which all could have been prevented or at least moderated by the right means.

Everyone has to make ends meet, but there's a saying: "Slow and steady wins the race". It is faster to do things right the first time even if that means a delay than it is to do things wrong the first time then fix them later.

 

"Overbugged updates" must be tested and checked. It's work of testers. It's beta, we all beta-testers, so it's our work. Simple.

Calling ourselves beta testers is walking a grey line, because we are already the customers or potential ones. There is no audience left to target besides XBox which will happen soon™.

Steam? Check. Playstation? Check. Unless they eventually bring Warframe to people's IPhone and Samsung apps after XBox, I really don't see anything else that they would expand to. This product is already available to the general public at this point.

 

Then every MMORPG,MMO-Shooter or comparable Online-Game is in a permanent Beta. I dont see any massive fundamental changes which differs from bigger updates of more prominent MMORPGs,etc. who are not considered to be in permanent Beta.

 

What was so massive and fundamental in this update that it would justife your interpretation of Beta?

 

The change of the UI? Several other games have undergone this process and are not in permanent Beta because of it.

The few "so called missions"? How many are there? And are they real missions? For me 90% of the co called missions are simple regular missions, thrown into a new context.

The kubrows? Yeah, everyone likes to have little Pokemon in a fast paced action-shooter.

The new Frame? Every 0815 online game gets new classes or abilities at regular basis.

I believe we have an accord. Fine tuning and adding more content (DLC as one person pointed out) is the remainder of things left to do.

[Mokkania]

Then every MMORPG,MMO-Shooter or comparable Online-Game is in a permanent Beta. I dont see any massive fundamental changes which differs from bigger updates of more prominent MMORPGs,etc. who are not considered to be in permanent Beta.

 

What was so massive and fundamental in this update that it would justife your interpretation of Beta?

 

The change of the UI? Several other games have undergone this process and are not in permanent Beta because of it.

The few "so called missions"? How many are there? And are they real missions? For me 90% of the co called missions are simple regular missions, thrown into a new context.

The kubrows? Yeah, everyone likes to have little Pokemon in a fast paced action-shooter.

The new Frame? Every 0815 online game gets new classes or abilities at regular basis.

When what do you think is for warframe something that would be a fundamental change that differ from big updates of other mmorpg?

[Headofgod]

IMHO this game is quite unique in its composition to anything I have played.  It strikes me as a crowdsourced, crowd tested, indie release.  Instead of having tons of the dollars to throw at a games development they are using the PC version of the game as a playtest sandbox and using microtransactions to fuel game development.  The unique thing is the bootstrapping approach, they started small and are adding bigger in game things, as well as (at least I hope) better infrastructure, and growing from a seedling into a sapling, and soon into a full grown tree.  I think that the beta label is both accurate and not, its a perpetual testing sandbox in the PC version, that leads to a complete game in the PS4 and XBox versions. Instead of using test servers and playtesters they have the horde of pc players to use, free of charge and hell even paying for the privilege.  I personally think its brilliant and enjoy it immensely.

 

[Venarge]

For Warframe, that would include Update 14 which has had many mixed feelings by the community.

 

You act like this would have been the first time. The whine is real son. It was real in EVERY FUC*ING MAJOR UPDATE.

 

And it will never end. Because to some people. Nothing can ever be the way they want it to be. Thats the problem with the community having a word to say about a game. It will never change. As simple as that.

[Ziegrif]

Nowhere on steams store page does it say that Warframe is early access or a Beta.

[Headofgod]

Ziegrif, because beta has a negative connotation to it, especially to companies like steam, sony,  microsoft.  Doesnt mean that they arent using the PC version as playtesters though, or if its beta in nature and not in label.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Headofgod

[Ziegrif]

Ziegrif, because beta has a negative connotation to it, especially to companies like steam, sony,  microsoft.  Doesnt mean that they arent using the PC version as playtesters though, or if its beta in nature and not in label.

 

It also means they need to put a big ole beta or early access to the Steam store page if they want to keep using the Beta tag.

Advertising has to be truthful after all.

[Headofgod]

Not really, they can use the "its not beta, we are crowd sourcing playtesting and funding" as an arguement to sell the product while still beta in nature.

[Ziegrif]

Not really, they can use the "its not beta, we are crowd sourcing playtesting and funding" as an arguement to sell the product while still beta in nature.

 

So lie to the consumer?

[Headofgod]

How is that lying?  Is it a traditional beta? Nah.  Its a different approach completely.  How they take community input and let it in the game? Its brilliant, and in my opinion not deceptive at all. (edited due to errant button pressing) Warframe is not like any other game I have played. This non traditional approach makes us playtesters if you are in the PC world, however because of how its approached its not a traditional SOP in developmental processes.  I wouldnt worry about it and take it for what it is, a unique experience to not only influence how things develop but actually have a creative input into a MMO.

Edited July 22, 2014 by Headofgod

[Ziegrif]

How is that lying?  Is it a traditional beta? Nah.  Its a different approach completely.  How they take community input and let it in the game? Its brilliant, and in my opinion not deceptive at all.

 

A potato can be called a tomato but it doesn't change the fact that it's still a potato and should be called such.

 

Not putting the beta tag or early access tag on the steam front page and doing such rookie mistakes like not having the LOGOUT button on the UI at the launch of an update is not permissible.

 

Pulling semantics to produce false advertising is not ethical and is straight up lying to the consumer. 

[Headofgod]

Its not semantics if the company is not stating that its beta. "I never had sex with that woman." Remember Bill Clinton and Lewinski? He didnt lie when saying that because the legal terminology he was given in the case with Jennifer Flowers stated that in the parameters given he didnt.  If you think they are purposely lying then I wont gainsay that.  I dont believe its traditionally a beta game anymore, I do believe they are using the PC venue as a playtesting sandbox to enable them to put out the game with a shoestring budget and provide a more finished product to the consoles.  Because of these beliefs and if they are thinking parallel to that, then they arent lying to anyone but those that put the label on for them.

[Maladictor0909]

Once you start paying for features and/or access it is not a Beta.

[TisForTat]

When what do you think is for warframe something that would be a fundamental change that differ from big updates of other mmorpg?

A core game mechanic change or to add one. Tutorial 2.0, UI 2.0, and Neopets are just aesthetic fillers which were also heavily bugged. Sure, the tutorial is more interesting than before, the ships are cool and add lore, and the Kubrows are cute, but none of those actually add gameplay. They're just eye candy which are sour in middle because they were "infested" with bugs.

 

You act like this would have been the first time. The whine is real son. It was real in EVERY FUC*ING MAJOR UPDATE.

 

And it will never end. Because to some people. Nothing can ever be the way they want it to be. Thats the problem with the community having a word to say about a game. It will never change. As simple as that.

You know what is worse than people that "whine" about every major update? People that whine about those people whining.

 

I take the opinion of people that refer to others as "son", rage in caps, hypocritically compain about other people complaining, and blame the community for a game's problems with a grain of salt.

 

Its not semantics if the company is not stating that its beta. "I never had sex with that woman." Remember Bill Clinton and Lewinski? He didnt lie when saying that because the legal terminology he was given in the case with Jennifer Flowers stated that in the parameters given he didnt.  If you think they are purposely lying then I wont gainsay that.  I dont believe its traditionally a beta game anymore, I do believe they are using the PC venue as a playtesting sandbox to enable them to put out the game with a shoestring budget and provide a more finished product to the consoles.  Because of these beliefs and if they are thinking parallel to that, then they arent lying to anyone but those that put the label on for them.

Regarding that line of reasoning for Bill Clinton, my rebuttal is this: "You can sugarcoat it as much as you like, but if the core is rotten then it will be rotten." For example I could claim walking barefoot on legos/broken glass/nails actually feels good, but that doesn't retract from the sensation when a person actually does and feels inhumane pain.

 

Your latter statement is plausible though, but for the purposes of my own points, I disagree. Dedicated QA testers with a brief delay to at least look at then remove game breaking bugs is my desire. Being the "open beta" testers for broken content is not. It drives away new players, who 9 out of 10 times in my experience don't come back. "Tutorial 2.0" or not. It also disappoints the veteran players.

 

The update would have even been fine as just an aesthetic update if they didn't rush to release it. It was rushed similarly to trying to eat half cooked frozen food.

[Mokkania]

A core game mechanic change or to add one.

not the kind of answer I'm waiting for

[Headofgod]

Regarding that line of reasoning for Bill Clinton, my rebuttal is this: "You can sugarcoat it as much as you like, but if the core is rotten then it will be rotten." For example I could claim walking barefoot on legos/broken glass/nails actually feels good, but that doesn't retract from the sensation when a person actually does and feels inhumane pain.

 

If the person doesn't perceive that pain then what? Are they lying when they state they don't perceive it like you do?  That's the problem is that people are percieving whatever they want to this subject.  In my example, Slick Willy wasnt lying, at least not to him because of the Flowers ruling on what was and wasnt sex.  When DE is selling the product as not a beta then to them its not a beta.  Thats my point.  It looks like a duck, it waddles like a duck but this time, it isnt a duck.  They are using the PC portion as a bugtesting machine.  It relieves them of having to do test servers, reduces budget for not having to hire more personnel, it satisfies the want moar now folks and it gets rid of the bugs in time for the PS4 release.  It is what it is.  They havent changed it, and getting mad at it is kinda like the toad and the scorpion fable.  Dont get mad when something acts in its nature, thats why it is its nature.

 

 

 

Edited July 22, 2014 by Headofgod

[Venarge]

You know what is worse than people that "whine" about every major update? People that whine about those people whining.

 

I take the opinion of people that refer to others as "son", rage in caps, hypocritically compain about other people complaining, and blame the community for a game's problems with a grain of salt.

Fair enough.

I have seen every major update to date.

People acted like the world would end. They made dozens of threads. And a few days later, the world still rotated and later, those people even came to the conclusion that the changes that have been made, actually werent that bad (who could actually think about that? I mean. Changes are not only made to hurt people? Wow. This cant be right? They have also been made to create a better game)

Sorry but all these complain threads that pop up after every update are funny to read and all, but nothing more.

[TisForTat]

not the kind of answer I'm waiting for

I assume you wanted a specific answer then? Alrighty. I'll first start with what has been done already then what could be done.

 

1) Mobile Defense, Interception, etc.

2) Foundry

3) Mod 2.0

4) Clans and Dojo

5) Orokin Void and Orokin Derelict

6) Damage 2.0

7) Melee 2.0

8) Alliances and Dark Sectors

 

What could be changed or added now? Stealth 2.0, Balance 2.0, and Quests 2.0. After that? More content and aesthetics.

 

If the person doesn't perceive that pain then what? Are they lying when they state they don't perceive it like you do?  That's the problem is that people are percieving whatever they want to this subject.  In my example, Slick Willy wasnt lying, at least not to him because of the Flowers ruling on what was and wasnt sex.  When DE is selling the product as not a beta then to them its not a beta.  Thats my point.  It looks like a duck, it waddles like a duck but this time, it isnt a duck.  They are using the PC portion as a bugtesting machine.  It relieves them of having to do test servers, reduces budget for not having to hire more personnel, it satisfies the want moar now folks and it gets rid of the bugs in time for the PS4 release.  It is what it is.  They havent changed it, and getting mad at it is kinda like the toad and the scorpion fable.  Dont get mad when something acts in its nature, thats why it is its nature.

You put your reply in my quote. You should edit that.

 

Anyways, humans are as different to each other as the crystal structures of snowflakes, but that that doesn't change one fact. That fact is that snowflakes are still snowflakes and humans are still humans. Every human will perceive pain like the next because it is human nature, instinct, a sensation necessary to detect danger. If humans did not, we would be dying left and right to extinction a long time ago because we would be doing actions we would otherwise know better not to do. As Lotus likes to say: "Stay away from the fire, Tenno". If we are going to use counterexamples, sure some humans may not, but that is because they possess Neuropathy or other health disorders. They are still human, but impaired. Also if it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is not a cow.

 

Warframe is not a beta, but this is not because person X says so. It is a matter determined solely by whether the product has been delivered to the general market for profit. DE has already accomplished joining with 2 of the 3 major audiences to video games and will soon have all 3.

 

Fair enough.

I have seen every major update to date.

People acted like the world would end. They made dozens of threads. And a few days later, the world still rotated and later, those people even came to the conclusion that the changes that have been made, actually werent that bad (who could actually think about that? I mean. Changes are not only made to hurt people? Wow. This cant be right? They have also been made to create a better game)

Sorry but all these complain threads that pop up after every update are funny to read and all, but nothing more.

Many "complaint" threads were feedback and that resulted in hotfixes within "a few days". Changes have two sides to them. One good. One bad. The good usually outweighted the bad until U14. People usually point out bugs, rather than actual changes. The exceptions are:

 

Mod 2.0, Damage 2.0, Melee 2.0, and Update 14.

 

Mod 2.0 was disliked by veteran players who already had the best loadouts in Mod 1.0 and didn't want to "start over".

 

Damage 2.0 was disliked by veteran players who already had favorite weapons/Warframes (Acrid, Saryn, etc.) and it was also disliked by most general players because bonuses and penalties were irrational at one point and combos were guesswork. They made changes and it became common knowledge through DE posts of what does what.

 

Melee 2.0 was disliked by "Galatine or nothing" players that had their favorite overpowered melee weapon nerfed into the mid tier category.

 

Update 14 is disliked for the lack of engagement beyond shallow face value, clunky new UI, higher CPU usage, and bugs for everyone and their mother.

[Borockobama]

Do we all remember how long Dota 2 was in "beta" Closed beta no less. This is nothing. DE needs to take their time and make sure they have a complete game ready for release

[ndantony]

People use "beta" to validate their various complains and grievances. They coated, covered up and complained with all the reasoning that they could think but along the line of "beta this, that, or what's not"!!!

 

For me (and I'm sure also for the rest of us)… we just don't give a f@#$!!

…open beta?

Ok?! … and?....

…closed beta with reward?

Where is my reward and how do I get it?!

…new update?

When? Can I play it and when, when??

…bugs?

De, fix it please (yup, support ticket submitted)!!

…this is beta because of this, that and that… and more specific examples broken mod such and such, broken this and that, blah blah… and if it's not what would you call it, huh?? Huh??

Go f@#$ yourself!!!

 

LOL

[Mak_Gohae]

Warframe didnt have 5 years of development and is now being tested for the final product.

OR

Warframes is not a completed game from some other country that needs translation and transfering to other servers.

 

Warframe is being build as we speak.

Back when i started there was only the Corpus ship tiles, ONLY THOSE, and there were only 8 frames and 12 weapons.

The game is bing build as we play.

DE just released it when it was stable enough and release the pay options because it doesnt have a publisher so it didnt get cash from anyone for development. DE is getting that cash from us.

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

Warframe didnt have 5 years of development and is now being tested for the final product.

OR

Warframes is not a completed game from some other country that needs translation and transfering to other servers.

 

Warframe is being build as we speak.

Back when i started there was only the Corpus ship tiles, ONLY THOSE, and there were only 8 frames and 12 weapons.

The game is bing build as we play.

DE just released it when it was stable enough and release the pay options because it doesnt have a publisher so it didnt get cash from anyone for development. DE is getting that cash from us.

It's crowd sourced publishing.  It is a beta, we are the investors.  It's an interesting model because while we invest cash we don't necessarily get returns other than digital items.  It's a new beta model, but still a beta because there is no finished product.