What Would It Take To Get A Dedicated Test Server?

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

What if DE split Warframe releases across two servers? An early test server where things are like they are now on PC and a full release server that has release parity and better stability.

I get the sense that DE has been exploring ways to address it's update woes and keep pleasing player, this is a passive approach.

What are the community thoughts? Would it be too disruptive to have a spot release? What other advantages/disadvantages come to mind?

[Pandoran_Stallion]

Well, they'll need something: Servers.

[BurntKitten]

This is a great idea and something that has come up a few times in the feedback discussions (particular amongst the UI arguements taking place).  A test server is the usual way of testing new features, whether it's to a closed or open group of testers.  Unfortunately extra builds require extra servers and that costs money, so in the end we would be paying for it in the form of possibly increased costs for platinum or more platinum only purchaces in game.

 

However people are going to argue that we ARE the test group, being that the game still says beta on the tin.  I tend to disagree as beta should have been removed when we had the ability to start paying real money for things.  The big (highly flammable) question that always lingers with me is who are we beta testing for?

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

@UpGradeInProgress Sure, but is that a nonstarter?

Edited July 21, 2014 by (PS4)MoRockaPDX

[Noble_Cactus]

I've always supported the idea of a test server. Not only would it hep make patch releases much smoother, it would also take a burden off developer shoulders, further strengthen the bond between players/developers, and allow players to provide more constructive feedback than on the general forums (if the test servers got their own section, perhaps). TF2 did it. Skullgirls does it. Other games do it. Why not Warframe?

 

There are a few arguments people bring out whenever test servers are mentioned. One of them is: "Why would I want to play a beta for a beta?"

 

This reasoning behind this statement is unfounded for several reasons.

 

Despite having a reputation for being a beta, I can't remember the last time Warframe was officially stated as such. The loading screen doesn't say it. This website doesn't say it. The PS4 release doesn't say it. For all we know, Warframe is more like an evolving work in progress, similar to TF2, Smite, or any other popular online multiplayer game that receives constant updates. TF2 currently has a map beta feature where players are testing a brand new game mode that will be introduced to the game as a polished, finished feature. There's no special signup involved; anyone can hop onto the new map and provide feedback. So it's not redundant at all. If the TF2 team develops the game this way, why isn't it also a beta?

 

So until I see a recent source stating that Warframe is a beta, I'm going to believe that it has exited that phase.

 

—

 

Even if it is a beta, it's irrelevant, because of another argument that I often see: "Why would I playtest things that I'm already playtesting in the first place?"

 

This question is often coupled with the first statement. But, as stated before, other games feature test servers/realms that allow players to provide accurate feedback on content before it's released to everyone, regardless of whether they participated in the testing or not. There is a clear distinction between unfinished content and finished content that can also be improved over time.

 

Warframe doesn't have this distinction. It only feels like a collection of undercooked, undeveloped, bug-riddled ideas that has no guiding framework. That's because it really is a bunch of cool-sounding ideas slapped together and shoved out the door over which players bemoan when they realize it doesn't deliver nearly as much as promised, or that it just plain doesn't work. Patch releases for this game are far rockier than most other respectable online games I've played, and it's causing a lot of unnecessary unrest in the fanbase. It could be the reason why Warframe is losing PC players. One glance at any of the subforums at this very moment to see that there are far more complaint threads than appreciation threads, and that the current appreciation threads offer very little substance in their feedback while the complaint threads often present far more sound criticism.

 

So back to the original question. Why would I want to playtest a game for which I'm already providing feedback?

 

Let's use a tasty analogy to make the reasoning clearer. Say you work at a bakery. You're a taste tester for the head baker, who comes up with new and exciting recipes for cookies. These cookies are inevitably sold to customers who always line up for new cookie flavors. However, when you taste test these cookies, the baker only lets you taste the uncooked dough. He never lets you taste the finished, baked cookie. He also doesn't taste his own finished cookies for some reason. When customers finally do get to taste the cookies, they are often disgusted that something is wrong with them, or they feel like they could have been so much better if they had just been tested a little more thoroughly. Yet you couldn't have helped it, because you only tasted the idea of the cookie. You only know its components, not what it's like when it has gone through the rigors of heat and fire. Thus, you have no way of preventing the head baker from selling bad cookies before it's too late.

 

Now let's say you're in the same scenario. But this time, the head baker lets you taste the finished cookies. He asks what you think of them, what should be improved, and whether he should sell them to the hungry customers or not. You and the other taste testers can make clear judgments about the cookie in this scenario because you know exactly what will be sold to the public. If something about the cookie is off, you suggest what might be wrong with the initial mix that lead to this bad cookie. The baker goes back and reworks the recipe, bakes the dough, and gives you the new cookie for more feedback. Eventually, you give him the thumbs up, and the cookie can be enjoyed by you and the customers.

 

The big updates we receive are the uncooked dough. They're stricken with glaring issues, like dysfunctional quests and unclear directions on where to get our new dog companions. DE's defendaers say, "Don't worry, this is the first patch. We'll see hotfixes in a few days that will make it better, but we have to give feedback because we are playtesters!" Of course we are playtesters. Of course it is our job to provide feedback on these new systems. But what we are given are the raw components of these new systems. We can't give accurate feedback on how they should be improved when we can barely use them in the first place. When we do give feedback, it's so these new features can be fixed to be made playable. It's difficult to provide constructive feedback when there's barely anything to build upon int he first place. At times, it honestly feels like we're helping a bunch of game design students learn how to make a game, rather than help accomplished developers deepen their ideas and make a truly beautiful final game. Personally, I want DE to be the second baker and not the first. What kind of bakery do you think DE should run?

 

—

 

Warframe is stuck in this weird cycle of "release raw material, make some touch ups, move onto the next update." It never actually improves. It only expands. Test servers could help close that divide. They could let players work out all of those initial kinks, expose the raw content for what it truly is, and then build on top of those base concepts. You can't build a great city without clearing away all the garbage at its foundation, after all.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[BurntKitten]

I completely agree with all of the above, but just want to point out one small thing...

 

Despite having a reputation for being a beta, I can't remember the last time Warframe was officially stated as such. The loading screen doesn't say it. This website doesn't say it. The PS4 release doesn't say it. For all we know, Warframe is more like an evolving work in progress, similar to TF2, Smite, or any other popular online multiplayer game that receives constant updates.

 

Taken from the login screen of the previous version

[Noble_Cactus]

I completely agree with all of the above, but just want to point out one small thing...

 

 

Taken from the login screen of the previous version

 

Ah, thanks. I had a feeling I was forgetting somewhere where it was actually stated to be a beta.

 

However, I guess it does beg the question whether the "beta" refers to the Dark Sectors themselves, or the game as a whole?

 

I suppose it's not too important.

[Davoodoo]

PBE to remove most crucial and most obvious bugs would be a great and welcome addition, maybe it would save us from sessions unavailable while joining dojo, many crashes, long loading times, connection problems, impossible to complete quests, disappearing items.

 

It took me personally 3 days to find all of mentioned above, guess what would find a group of 100 or 1000 players during a week.

 

Live server would get stable version of update and lets be honest its open beta only by tag.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

They wouldn't need a test server if people stopped asking them to release updates before the devs themselves have play tested.

[Davoodoo]

They wouldn't need a test server if people stopped asking them to release updates before the devs themselves have play tested.

They didnt need to listen to us and actually in many points they dont.

If they did release it earlier then they did so only because they thought they can make it or had different goal with that and havent planned to finish it before releasing.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Renegade343]

What if DE split Warframe releases across two servers? An early test server where things are like they are now on PC and a full release server that has release parity and better stability.

I get the sense that DE has been exploring ways to address it's update woes and keep pleasing player, this is a passive approach.

What are the community thoughts? Would it be too disruptive to have a spot release? What other advantages/disadvantages come to mind?

Actually, why not have the Design Council play the test server and give feedback, suggestions and bug reports?

 

At least it would make the Design Council have some contributions towards the community, rather than just voting for something and sneak previews of weapons and such.

[Davoodoo]

9999999999999999 plat, everything unlocked, 999 of every key and week to wreck whole update.

 

Just do it like beta should be done.

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

They didnt need to listen to us and actually in many points they dont.

If they did release it earlier then they did so only because they thought they can make it or had different goal with that and havent planned to finish it before releasing.

Then why did they spend all night working instead of calling it a day and delaying the update by another week? If they didn't plan to finish it, then what good is a test server? Wouldn't they just add stuff that wasn't even on the test server into the full release?

[Hixlysss]

If they do implement some kind of "Testing grounds" server where players can come in and try out stuff, work out the bugs, before it's released, it will probably only be accessable via a limited number of people. Like the design council and a few extras.

 

But I do totally agree with the idea.

[Davoodoo]

Then why did they spend all night working instead of calling it a day and delaying the update by another week? If they didn't plan to finish it, then what good is a test server? Wouldn't they just add stuff that wasn't even on the test server into the full release?

Lets see, updates were promised at wednesday, they took an extra dat and promised update at thursday. My guess is that they wanted to keep promise they gave themselves. They could say that its buggy mess and they gonna release it once fixed, i would personally prefer that.

FInd out yourself why some companies put not finished product on market, i wont start another flamewar just to explain that.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

I've always supported the idea of a test server. Not only would it hep make patch releases much smoother, it would also take a burden off developer shoulders, further strengthen the bond between players/developers, and allow players to provide more constructive feedback than on the general forums (if the test servers got their own section, perhaps). TF2 did it. Skullgirls does it. Other games do it. Why not Warframe?

 

There are a few arguments people bring out whenever test servers are mentioned. One of them is: "Why would I want to play a beta for a beta?"

 

This reasoning behind this statement is unfounded for several reasons.

 

Despite having a reputation for being a beta, I can't remember the last time Warframe was officially stated as such. The loading screen doesn't say it. This website doesn't say it. The PS4 release doesn't say it. For all we know, Warframe is more like an evolving work in progress, similar to TF2, Smite, or any other popular online multiplayer game that receives constant updates. TF2 currently has a map beta feature where players are testing a brand new game mode that will be introduced to the game as a polished, finished feature. There's no special signup involved; anyone can hop onto the new map and provide feedback. So it's not redundant at all. If the TF2 team develops the game this way, why isn't it also a beta?

 

So until I see a recent source stating that Warframe is a beta, I'm going to believe that it has exited that phase.

 

—

 

Even if it is a beta, it's irrelevant, because of another argument that I often see: "Why would I playtest things that I'm already playtesting in the first place?"

 

This question is often coupled with the first statement. But, as stated before, other games feature test servers/realms that allow players to provide accurate feedback on content before it's released to everyone, regardless of whether they participated in the testing or not. There is a clear distinction between unfinished content and finished content that can also be improved over time.

 

Warframe doesn't have this distinction. It only feels like a collection of undercooked, undeveloped, bug-riddled ideas that has no guiding framework. That's because it really is a bunch of cool-sounding ideas slapped together and shoved out the door over which players bemoan when they realize it doesn't deliver nearly as much as promised, or that it just plain doesn't work. Patch releases for this game are far rockier than most other respectable online games I've played, and it's causing a lot of unnecessary unrest in the fanbase. It could be the reason why Warframe is losing PC players. One glance at any of the subforums at this very moment to see that there are far more complaint threads than appreciation threads, and that the current appreciation threads offer very little substance in their feedback while the complaint threads often present far more sound criticism.

 

So back to the original question. Why would I want to playtest a game for which I'm already providing feedback?

 

Let's use a tasty analogy to make the reasoning clearer. Say you work at a bakery. You're a taste tester for the head baker, who comes up with new and exciting recipes for cookies. These cookies are inevitably sold to customers who always line up for new cookie flavors. However, when you taste test these cookies, the baker only lets you taste the uncooked dough. He never lets you taste the finished, baked cookie. He also doesn't taste his own finished cookies for some reason. When customers finally do get to taste the cookies, they are often disgusted that something is wrong with them, or they feel like they could have been so much better if they had just been tested a little more thoroughly. Yet you couldn't have helped it, because you only tasted the idea of the cookie. You only know its components, not what it's like when it has gone through the rigors of heat and fire. Thus, you have no way of preventing the head baker from selling bad cookies before it's too late.

 

Now let's say you're in the same scenario. But this time, the head baker lets you taste the finished cookies. He asks what you think of them, what should be improved, and whether he should sell them to the hungry customers or not. You and the other taste testers can make clear judgments about the cookie in this scenario because you know exactly what will be sold to the public. If something about the cookie is off, you suggest what might be wrong with the initial mix that lead to this bad cookie. The baker goes back and reworks the recipe, bakes the dough, and gives you the new cookie for more feedback. Eventually, you give him the thumbs up, and the cookie can be enjoyed by you and the customers.

 

The big updates we receive are the uncooked dough. They're stricken with glaring issues, like dysfunctional quests and unclear directions on where to get our new dog companions. DE's defendaers say, "Don't worry, this is the first patch. We'll see hotfixes in a few days that will make it better, but we have to give feedback because we are playtesters!" Of course we are playtesters. Of course it is our job to provide feedback on these new systems. But what we are given are the raw components of these new systems. We can't give accurate feedback on how they should be improved when we can barely use them in the first place. When we do give feedback, it's so these new features can be fixed to be made playable. It's difficult to provide constructive feedback when there's barely anything to build upon int he first place. At times, it honestly feels like we're helping a bunch of game design students learn how to make a game, rather than help accomplished developers deepen their ideas and make a truly beautiful final game. Personally, I want DE to be the second baker and not the first. What kind of bakery do you think DE should run?

 

—

 

Warframe is stuck in this weird cycle of "release raw material, make some touch ups, move onto the next update." It never actually improves. It only expands. Test servers could help close that divide. They could let players work out all of those initial kinks, expose the raw content for what it truly is, and then build on top of those base concepts. You can't build a great city without clearing away all the garbage at its foundation, after all.

Except the baker made his customers sign contracts saying that they can expect disgusting cookies before trying the experimental cookies.

[Davoodoo]

Except the baker made his customers sign contracts saying that they can expect disgusting cookies before trying the experimental cookies.

In conclusion and to be certain, as a Open Beta tester, you are invited to play the Game for the sole purpose of evaluating the Game and identifying errors. Nothing in this agreement, or on the Website, shall be construed as granting you any rights or privileges of any kind with respect to the Game or content that you find here. The Game is provided for testing on an "as is", "as available" basis, and Digital Extremes makes no warranty to you of any kind, express or implied.

 

Part of open beta agreement and thats only reason why they cant be sued for releasing product that simply doesnt work.

[Renegade343]

9999999999999999 plat, everything unlocked, 999 of every key and week to wreck whole update.

 

Just do it like beta should be done.

So much power. 

 

I fear we may not recover from it when we play the actual version.

[Davoodoo]

So much power. 

 

I fear we may not recover from it when we play the actual version.

Never said you would keep that on actual server, but these are also important tests for free 2 play game with premium currency, that set would allow to test every aspect of game within minimal amount of time, cause you know, beta is supposed to be done in timely manner, not 1 and a half year.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Renegade343]

Never said you would keep that on actual server, but these are also important tests for free 2 play game with premium currency, that set would allow to test every aspect of game within minimal amount of time.

I know, but you have a taste of it, and the taste is not going to leave quickly after playing around the test server for the specified time period, would it?

[Davoodoo]

I know, but you have a taste of it, and the taste is not going to leave quickly after playing around the test server for the specified time period, would it?

If you went there to test i think you would have no problem with that, problem would start when you treat it as demo or worse actual release.

 

Mindset is what matters.

[Renegade343]

If you went there to test i think you would have no problem with that, problem would start when you treat it as demo or worse actual release.

 

Mindset is what matters.

There is still going to a bit of a longing for it when we come back to the actual release. 

 

After all, who can resist having 999999999 Platinum for free?

 

But anyways, a test server would benefit almost everyone.

[Davoodoo]

There is still going to a bit of a longing for it when we come back to the actual release. 

 

After all, who can resist having 999999999 Platinum for free?

 

But anyways, a test server would benefit almost everyone.

Such perks on test server was standard some time ago and nobody even tried to oppose account wipe after beta, try to mention account wipe on our forums now.

These were better times for gaming overall.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

Such perks on test server was standard some time ago and nobody even tried to oppose account wipe after beta, try to mention account wipe on our forums now.

These were better times for gaming overall.

I guess this game is really bad with timing then. I guess it also means that it will die a tragic death like Romeo and Juliet.

[Noble_Cactus]

Except the baker made his customers sign contracts saying that they can expect disgusting cookies before trying the experimental cookies.

 

You either missed the point of my analogy, or I didn't explain it clearly enough. My point was that we should expect to eat some bad cookies, but right now, we don't even get to eat those cookies. We just eat the dough - the very basic alpha concepts of what those cookies (i.e., the quest system) should be. As a result, we can't really critique the quest system because it barely even works.